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01-11-2011, 08:28 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by RCGP View Post
We need another superdraft, and with the expiring contracts we have I'd say we could very easily get enough picks and prospects to accelerate the process. Perhaps we could even use some of our cap space to absorb some shorter term bad contracts, for draft picks of course.

Allen, Wideman, and Weaver could be moved for the right price, otherwise they will be deadline fodder the next year.

Olesz and Reinprecht will be bought out in the summer I suspect, and I doubt anyone will want to take a chance on Booth or offer up what is required to get Weiss.
I doubt Weaver or Wideman go anywhere because Weaver helps us tremendously on the PK and is signed to a nice contract and Wideman was a big component to the Horton deal (draft pick as well) While I am not saying they are untouchable, I am just saying that they help more than they hurt. Same goes with Booth and Weiss. There is just no reason to trade them away. We aren't in a full rebuild, so theres no reason to sell off the house for draft picks and prospects.

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01-11-2011, 09:14 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Pantherfan12 View Post
I doubt Weaver or Wideman go anywhere because Weaver helps us tremendously on the PK and is signed to a nice contract and Wideman was a big component to the Horton deal (draft pick as well) While I am not saying they are untouchable, I am just saying that they help more than they hurt. Same goes with Booth and Weiss. There is just no reason to trade them away. We aren't in a full rebuild, so theres no reason to sell off the house for draft picks and prospects.
There are 3.9 million reasons why Wideman may be traded.

Yes, he was a big part of the Horton deal. I think a good GM needs to admit when he's made a mistake and move on. Tallon, in cutting Grabner, has shown that he will make those moves.

I'm not saying that Wideman was a mistake or that he should be traded. I just think that the reason he's kept should not be "we got him for Horton".

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01-11-2011, 09:50 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
There are 3.9 million reasons why Wideman may be traded.

Yes, he was a big part of the Horton deal. I think a good GM needs to admit when he's made a mistake and move on. Tallon, in cutting Grabner, has shown that he will make those moves.

I'm not saying that Wideman was a mistake or that he should be traded. I just think that the reason he's kept should not be "we got him for Horton".
Wideman would be the last one of our veteran defensemen I would trade !

He is very much comparable to McCabe, younger, cheaper and a right-handed shot !

Trade McCabe and Allen before Wideman !

Dennis can be a nice number 2 or 3, and he is identified as such... Not like McCabe who is supposed to be our number one and can't be one !

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01-11-2011, 10:06 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by BabyJagrov View Post
Wideman would be the last one of our veteran defensemen I would trade !

He is very much comparable to McCabe, younger, cheaper and a right-handed shot !

Trade McCabe and Allen before Wideman !

Dennis can be a nice number 2 or 3, and he is identified as such... Not like McCabe who is supposed to be our number one and can't be one !
I agree, and as much as I'd like to, you can't trade all three.

Nonetheless, I hope Tallon is exploring every angle in order to make this team better. No player... no prospect is "untouchable".

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01-11-2011, 10:25 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
There are 3.9 million reasons why Wideman may be traded.

Yes, he was a big part of the Horton deal. I think a good GM needs to admit when he's made a mistake and move on. Tallon, in cutting Grabner, has shown that he will make those moves.

I'm not saying that Wideman was a mistake or that he should be traded. I just think that the reason he's kept should not be "we got him for Horton".
I didn't mean to make it sound like the only reason we keep Wideman was because we got in him the deal for Horton. I just meant that Tallon must've seen something in Wideman to want to aquire him and I don't think Tallon would trade him after one season considering Wideman has done a decent job, unless he's going to get a king's ransom. I'd also rather trade Allen and McCabe before I part ways with Wideman.


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01-11-2011, 10:31 AM
  #56
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Everyone could be traded. We have no franchise players.

We have no all star(s) this year. Dadanov has been invited to the rookie superskills.

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01-11-2011, 10:36 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Pantherfan12 View Post
I didn't mean to make it sound like the only reason we keep Wideman was because we got in him the deal for Horton. I just meant that Tallon must've seen something in Wideman to want to aquire him and I don't think Tallon would trade him after one season considering Wideman has done a decent job, unless he's going to get a king's ransom. I'd also rather trade Allen and McCabe before I part ways with Wideman.
I agree for the most part, except for the "king's ransom" part.

I wouldn't be looking to move Wideman, but if you can move him in deal that makes the team better I think you have to do it.

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01-11-2011, 10:37 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Pantherfan12 View Post
I didn't mean to make it sound like the only reason we keep Wideman was because we got in him the deal for Horton. I just meant that Tallon must've seen something in Wideman to want to aquire him and I don't think Tallon would trade him after one season considering Wideman has done a decent job, unless he's going to get a king's ransom. I'd also rather trade Allen and McCabe before I part ways with Wideman.
I'd like to see Wideman traded because I believe the money we put towards him could be used more effectively. He was brought in to help the powerplay, be effective on break out passes/transitioning out of our zone, and decent defensively. He has been pretty bad defensively and useless on the PP. I'd rather keep Allen than Wideman. Allen is also overpaid but he's better at what you want out of him. If either player was traded their would be no gaping hole we'd have trouble filling. Of all our players, I think only losing Weiss would be hard to replace, especially considering his cap hit. Guys like Kulikov and Dadanov should be exempt as of now but could be had if a star player was being offered.

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01-11-2011, 10:37 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Everyone could be traded. We have no franchise players.

We have no all star(s) this year. Dadanov has been invited to the rookie superskills.
Good. If we were going to send someone, though, I was hoping it would be Olesz. That would be awesome.


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01-11-2011, 10:42 AM
  #60
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Of everyone on our current NHL roster, I think we should only keep Weiss, Dadanov, and Kulikov.

Weiss is an excellent value and if we could ever get a true #1 he could flourish.

Dadanov has played really well and shows some offensive creativity which we rarely see. Hopefully he can keep it up.

Kulikov has been good defensively and his offensive game will come around.

I'm somewhat on the fence with Frolik. Sometimes I see the flashes of talent but I don't see an elite offensive player. I think he could be like Kristian Huselius and be a steady producer with one or two really good years. I've said this before, if we trade a guy like Frolik or Booth and they're the best player in the trade, we'll regret it.

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01-11-2011, 10:50 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Of everyone on our current NHL roster, I think we should only keep Weiss, Dadanov, and Kulikov.

Weiss is an excellent value and if we could ever get a true #1 he could flourish.

Dadanov has played really well and shows some offensive creativity which we rarely see. Hopefully he can keep it up.

Kulikov has been good defensively and his offensive game will come around.

I'm somewhat on the fence with Frolik. Sometimes I see the flashes of talent but I don't see an elite offensive player. I think he could be like Kristian Huselius and be a steady producer with one or two really good years. I've said this before, if we trade a guy like Frolik or Booth and they're the best player in the trade, we'll regret it.
I agree. Santorelli is another guy I'd like to see more of.

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01-11-2011, 11:10 AM
  #62
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I agree. Santorelli is another guy I'd like to see more of.
I forgot about him. I'd keep him. It will be interesting to see what kind of raise he gets.

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01-11-2011, 11:13 AM
  #63
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Well, it's cool that you came up with the number 3.5, but nobody else here was talking about that number. 2.5M is about what you'd pay for a 40 pt. scorer. Add a few K as Booth is on pace for 46 pts. and it's still not close to 4.5. Nobody being completely objective would say that Booth isn't very overpaid for what he is on pace to produce this season.
Well, so you recommend that we don't give any of our players long-term contracts? You can't just go on a year-by-year basis with these guys. They are going to have up years and down years. One of the other posters made a much better argument than you by averaging Booth's last three seasons, and trying to figure out his $/production value that way. I still agree with other posters when they argue that Booth provides more than just production to this team. He has intangible qualities like effort, heart, and fan support that doesn't necessarily show up on the scoresheet.

Look, I'm not saying that Booth isn't overpaid. I'm just saying that it doesn't matter. Because a fair argument would actually be looking at all the players who are currently underpaid giving their current production, right?

So let's see:

Dadonov is making $662k and has 10 points in 14 games, has been playing on the 1st line in some games.

Frolik is making $850k and is our leading scorer. Although he is not putting up Crosby-esque points he is our leading scorer and should be compensated as such. But you aren't complaining that he is grossly underpaid this season, are you?

Santorelli is making $600k and really came out of nowhere to surprise us all this season. He's definitely playing above his paygrade.

Do I need to continue?

My point is this: it doesn't matter if Booth is slightly overpaid, we can stop talking about it. We are nowhere near the cap and Booth's salary doesn't affect our hockey decisions unless the owner is going into personal bankruptcy and wants to sell off players. That, coupled with the fact that we probably have more players who are outperforming their current contracts means that we are doing quite well for ourselves if we are really going to be discussing "contract value" and whatever arbitrary combination of point production and intangible qualities that is actually defined as.

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01-11-2011, 01:39 PM
  #64
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Call me crazy, but I think Marty Reasoner is a keeper for the short-term future. Not every keeper has to be a star.

Reasoner basically does everything well; he's a perfect checking line center, and considering his career, it's doubtful that he gets a bad contract, or anything like that.

I mean, if you want to keep Stephen Weiss and then label everyone else as a non-keeper, that really sends the wrong message to Weiss. I've said this before, but why the hell would Weiss want to be here under those conditions? You might as well trade Weiss if you're getting rid of everyone else.

Weiss hasn't made the playoffs in his career, and he's not exactly getting any younger. I highly doubt he wants another handful of years of this crap.

He can say he wants to be a part of the turnaround, but he's human like anyone else.

He sees that he's producing at a decent rate year after year, and sees that this team is doing nothing year after year, and sooner or later he's going to want out.

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01-11-2011, 02:02 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by BabyJagrov View Post
Wideman would be the last one of our veteran defensemen I would trade !

He is very much comparable to McCabe, younger, cheaper and a right-handed shot !

Trade McCabe and Allen before Wideman !

Dennis can be a nice number 2 or 3, and he is identified as such... Not like McCabe who is supposed to be our number one and can't be one !
Still with the right-handed shot nonsense? I thought the fact that our powerplay that is ~9%, for which a right-handed shot was supposedly a panacea, would have made painfully obvious to most of you that it was a load of bull****

But go ahead, keep swallowing the medicine.


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01-11-2011, 02:20 PM
  #66
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Right handed shot was just one of the problems, but it's a good tool. The PP isn't 9% because we allowed a righty into our all lefty PP. Is the above serious??

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01-11-2011, 02:31 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Right handed shot was just one of the problems, but it's a good tool. The PP isn't 9% because we allowed a righty into our all lefty PP. Is the above serious??
Work on your reading comprehension. I'm not saying a right handed shot is why we have a 9% powerplay, I'm saying that a right-handed shot obviously was not the fix it was heralded to be when we acquired Wideman by many on this board. There is no way you could have seriously interpreted my post in that way.

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01-11-2011, 02:35 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
I agree for the most part, except for the "king's ransom" part.

I wouldn't be looking to move Wideman, but if you can move him in deal that makes the team better I think you have to do it.
I worded the whole "King's Ransom" wrong. I didn't mean to make it sound like he's a top 10 defensemen in the league, I just meant that unless a deal that would benefit our team came around for Wideman,I wouldn't move him right now.

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01-11-2011, 02:39 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Pantherfan12 View Post
I worded the whole "King's Ransom" wrong. I didn't mean to make it sound like he's a top 10 defensemen in the league, I just meant that unless a deal that would benefit our team came around for Wideman,I wouldn't move him right now.
Would you ever trade a player under contract for a deal that didn't benefit your team?

You don't need to answer that, its rhetorical. I figured I'd let you know that before you post some fallacious, circular reasoning for which I have no desire to subject myself to.

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01-11-2011, 02:55 PM
  #70
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Work on your reading comprehension. I'm not saying a right handed shot is why we have a 9% powerplay, I'm saying that a right-handed shot obviously was not the fix it was heralded to be when we acquired Wideman by many on this board. There is no way you could have seriously interpreted my post in that way.
Our power play isn't even at 9%... it's only 8.8%...

Take off the rose colored glasses you damned homer.

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01-11-2011, 03:47 PM
  #71
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Work on your reading comprehension. I'm not saying a right handed shot is why we have a 9% powerplay, I'm saying that a right-handed shot obviously was not the fix it was heralded to be when we acquired Wideman by many on this board. There is no way you could have seriously interpreted my post in that way.
Work on your wording skills. Yep, that's exactly what I thought, you weren't clear and I'm not a mind reader. Anyone who actually thought that Wideman being here was going to propel the PP into the upper tiers of the League was going to be sorely mistaken. But, the right handed shot was clearly missing last season, you could see where teams knew the shot was going to be coming from.

Just not really sure why you chose to blast a post where the guy gives good reasons to keep Wideman and you take off on the right handed shot not being important and him swallowing medicine.

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01-11-2011, 04:31 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
Work on your reading comprehension. I'm not saying a right handed shot is why we have a 9% powerplay, I'm saying that a right-handed shot obviously was not the fix it was heralded to be when we acquired Wideman by many on this board. There is no way you could have seriously interpreted my post in that way.
No offense intended to the poster here, but can we ban this unbelievably immature and soooo overused "insult" or "defense" or whatever you want to call it? At least for the Panther's section, because good jeebus am i sick of seeing that.

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01-11-2011, 05:54 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
Our power play isn't even at 9%... it's only 8.8%...

Take off the rose colored glasses you damned homer.
Hence the ~ in my initial post.

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01-11-2011, 07:37 PM
  #74
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Well, so you recommend that we don't give any of our players long-term contracts? You can't just go on a year-by-year basis with these guys. They are going to have up years and down years. One of the other posters made a much better argument than you by averaging Booth's last three seasons, and trying to figure out his $/production value that way. I still agree with other posters when they argue that Booth provides more than just production to this team. He has intangible qualities like effort, heart, and fan support that doesn't necessarily show up on the scoresheet.

Look, I'm not saying that Booth isn't overpaid. I'm just saying that it doesn't matter. Because a fair argument would actually be looking at all the players who are currently underpaid giving their current production, right?

So let's see:

Dadonov is making $662k and has 10 points in 14 games, has been playing on the 1st line in some games.

Frolik is making $850k and is our leading scorer. Although he is not putting up Crosby-esque points he is our leading scorer and should be compensated as such. But you aren't complaining that he is grossly underpaid this season, are you?

Santorelli is making $600k and really came out of nowhere to surprise us all this season. He's definitely playing above his paygrade.

Do I need to continue?

My point is this: it doesn't matter if Booth is slightly overpaid, we can stop talking about it. We are nowhere near the cap and Booth's salary doesn't affect our hockey decisions unless the owner is going into personal bankruptcy and wants to sell off players. That, coupled with the fact that we probably have more players who are outperforming their current contracts means that we are doing quite well for ourselves if we are really going to be discussing "contract value" and whatever arbitrary combination of point production and intangible qualities that is actually defined as.
This is a different case, this isn't just a typical down year for a player. We all know why Booth is having a down year, and he might very well never fully recover. Thus I don't think it's a bad idea to put the feelers out to see what the market is for him. I'm not saying trade him for anything, but if we get the right deal for him I think we should consider it.

Booth provides more than just offensive production to this team, but idk how hard you work, you have to actually produce if you're going to get a long term contract worth several million a year.

Frolik will get his money this summer, don't worry about that. Santorelli should get a significant raise too. The fact that we don't spend to the cap and have a self-imposed budget makes it even more critical that we get the best value production for our players, not less critical.

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01-11-2011, 09:42 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
Still with the right-handed shot nonsense? I thought the fact that our powerplay that is ~9%, for which a right-handed shot was supposedly a panacea, would have made painfully obvious to most of you that it was a load of bull****

But go ahead, keep swallowing the medicine.
Having right-handed defensemen is gravy... Just like right-handed centermen !

We only had lefties on D last year.

Now we have Weaver, Wideman, Gudbranson (in the near future)...

That was a must ! I never said Wideman would propel our PP in top-of-the-top status, but it was a must... It has certainly helped on the PK, and I'll repeat, it was a must to our team... Not a must for our PP to become one of a contender, never said that !

Get off people's back and try to bring something to the conversation instead...

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