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Old
01-11-2011, 10:49 PM
  #76
Southern Hockey
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Originally Posted by BabyJagrov View Post
Having right-handed defensemen is gravy... Just like right-handed centermen !

We only had lefties on D last year.

Now we have Weaver, Wideman, Gudbranson (in the near future)...

That was a must ! I never said Wideman would propel our PP in top-of-the-top status, but it was a must... It has certainly helped on the PK, and I'll repeat, it was a must to our team... Not a must for our PP to become one of a contender, never said that !

Get off people's back and try to bring something to the conversation instead...
It was a must? A must for what? Must isn't even a noun. NOTHING has improved because of Wideman's right-handed shot. That was just this years version of the propaganda we are fed every offseason to keep us blind to the fact that our team is dull and untalented.

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01-11-2011, 10:51 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
This is a different case, this isn't just a typical down year for a player. We all know why Booth is having a down year, and he might very well never fully recover. Thus I don't think it's a bad idea to put the feelers out to see what the market is for him. I'm not saying trade him for anything, but if we get the right deal for him I think we should consider it.

Booth provides more than just offensive production to this team, but idk how hard you work, you have to actually produce if you're going to get a long term contract worth several million a year.

Frolik will get his money this summer, don't worry about that. Santorelli should get a significant raise too. The fact that we don't spend to the cap and have a self-imposed budget makes it even more critical that we get the best value production for our players, not less critical.
Booth is on pace for nearly a 50 points season (and I'm pretty sure I'll get there as long as he stay healthy) and playing the whole year (so far) after two concussions, yet people are talking about him being overpaid and maybe traded...

Come on ! That is the process... The guy is 10 points off his career high with 25-25 (assume he gets there), while dealing with a post-concussion season and people want to see him out ? I don't get it !

I'm hoping Booth gets traded now, and goes on to put 70 points a season after all his hard-work and dedication to being the best player he can, and hopefully staying healthy ! So I can come back and tell you all "I told you so"...

Booth will prove himself next year and he may not even way that long IMO

You have to be patient with concussions... And I really like how David has dealt with all this and how he is looking back on the ice !

Patrice Bergeron is doing fine in Boston for sure...

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01-11-2011, 11:02 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
This is a different case, this isn't just a typical down year for a player. We all know why Booth is having a down year, and he might very well never fully recover. Thus I don't think it's a bad idea to put the feelers out to see what the market is for him. I'm not saying trade him for anything, but if we get the right deal for him I think we should consider it.

Booth provides more than just offensive production to this team, but idk how hard you work, you have to actually produce if you're going to get a long term contract worth several million a year.

Frolik will get his money this summer, don't worry about that. Santorelli should get a significant raise too. The fact that we don't spend to the cap and have a self-imposed budget makes it even more critical that we get the best value production for our players, not less critical.
So then you are saying that we shouldn't sign players to long term deals because they "might" get injured?

His concussion and subsequent lack of production doesn't make him overpaid, it makes him the victim of un-fortuitous circumstance.

The point is, he may be paid a little more than he deserves, but the fact that we are debating it lends it legitimacy as a matter of opinion. A true albatross of a contract would raise no argument to the contrary. For example, I suspect that no one would argue that Olesz's contract is properly valued.

In the end, its of no consequence. We don't spend to the cap, and we never will, so his contract is not an issue. Olesz's contract on the other hand is an issue, because its so absurd that it renders him almost un-tradeable.

This discussion is reaching the saturation point and should be dropped in my opinion. Nothing we discuss here will change his salary.

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01-11-2011, 11:03 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
It was a must? A must for what? Must isn't even a noun. NOTHING has improved because of Wideman's right-handed shot. That was just this years version of the propaganda we are fed every offseason to keep us blind to the fact that our team is dull and untalented.
Yeah... You know better...

Wouldn't call it untalented... Rather under-talented, we miss star offensive talent and everybody knows that since last summer ! Right-handed shot wasn't a propanga thing that was put in front of us, and that if solved, would bring us instant credibility around the League... It was a weakness ! One of our weakness, too bad for us we got a few more to take care of !

Have you seen who got the game winner tonight or even the game ? And I'm on the tank band-wagon so I should say Wideman is trash and untalented like you said... But Wideman will be a good part of Dale Tallon's future team IMO... And a right-handed Weaver for the short-term and the right-handed Gudbranson for the long-term... And I like the acquisition so I support the player !

We clearly need star firepower ! And Wideman wasn't that's a fact... But guess what ? Nathan Horton is on pace for a quiet year (Weiss will surpass him), after all his talents went to a power-house where he could explode !

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01-11-2011, 11:04 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by BabyJagrov View Post
Booth is on pace for nearly a 50 points season (and I'm pretty sure I'll get there as long as he stay healthy) and playing the whole year (so far) after two concussions, yet people are talking about him being overpaid and maybe traded...

Come on ! That is the process... The guy is 10 points off his career high with 25-25 (assume he gets there), while dealing with a post-concussion season and people want to see him out ? I don't get it !

I'm hoping Booth gets traded now, and goes on to put 70 points a season after all his hard-work and dedication to being the best player he can, and hopefully staying healthy ! So I can come back and tell you all "I told you so"...

Booth will prove himself next year and he may not even way that long IMO

You have to be patient with concussions... And I really like how David has dealt with all this and how he is looking back on the ice !

Patrice Bergeron is doing fine in Boston for sure...
How lovely. You want one of our better players to be traded so that you can gloat on an inconsequential internet message board.

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01-11-2011, 11:07 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by BabyJagrov View Post
Booth is on pace for nearly a 50 points season (and I'm pretty sure I'll get there as long as he stay healthy) and playing the whole year (so far) after two concussions, yet people are talking about him being overpaid and maybe traded...

Come on ! That is the process... The guy is 10 points off his career high with 25-25 (assume he gets there), while dealing with a post-concussion season and people want to see him out ? I don't get it !

I'm hoping Booth gets traded now, and goes on to put 70 points a season after all his hard-work and dedication to being the best player he can, and hopefully staying healthy ! So I can come back and tell you all "I told you so"...

Booth will prove himself next year and he may not even way that long IMO

You have to be patient with concussions... And I really like how David has dealt with all this and how he is looking back on the ice !

Patrice Bergeron is doing fine in Boston for sure...
You don't know that, and he's not Bergeron either. Every case is different. How are the Lindros brothers doing these days? Of course everyone wants to see Booth get back to the form he once had, but you can't state that as fact. He's on pace for 48 pts., hardly overwhelming and especially for his contract that has another 4 years on it.

Again, I don't want to see him out, I'm saying that he shouldn't be regarded as "untouchable" as he once was. Nobody can predict the future. He might never fully recover and we could be stuck with a bloated contract for 4 more years. It might not be the worst thing to trade him too early instead of waiting until he's untradeable, if we get the right deal. If Booth was being paid 2.7M I wouldn't have a problem with being super patient. But he's being paid to produce like a star forward.

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01-11-2011, 11:09 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
How lovely. You want one of our better players to be traded so that you can gloat on an inconsequential internet message board.
So I can tell blind people that Booth actually looked good coming after two concussions...

I know it won't happen, Tallon isn't shipping Booth out unless it is for a great star player, so we can all be happy and dance together hands in hands !

I'm just amazed at how hard opinions are on Booth... I'm actually quite happy with his season so far, and I don't see how you couldn't be...

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01-11-2011, 11:12 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by BabyJagrov View Post
So I can tell blind people that Booth actually looked good coming after two concussions...

I know it won't happen, Tallon isn't shipping Booth out unless it is for a great star player, so we can all be happy and dance together hands in hands !

I'm just amazed at how hard opinions are on Booth... I'm actually quite happy with his season so far, and I don't see how you couldn't be...
Booth is quickly becoming the most overrated player on this team, based on certain fans' comments.

He really hasn't been that good this year. You could make a case that he hasn't been good, at all.

He's been disappointing offensively, and has been below average, defensively.

Sure as hell shouldn't be considered untouchable.

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01-11-2011, 11:16 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
So then you are saying that we shouldn't sign players to long term deals because they "might" get injured?

His concussion and subsequent lack of production doesn't make him overpaid, it makes him the victim of un-fortuitous circumstance.

The point is, he may be paid a little more than he deserves, but the fact that we are debating it lends it legitimacy as a matter of opinion. A true albatross of a contract would raise no argument to the contrary. For example, I suspect that no one would argue that Olesz's contract is properly valued.

In the end, its of no consequence. We don't spend to the cap, and we never will, so his contract is not an issue. Olesz's contract on the other hand is an issue, because its so absurd that it renders him almost un-tradeable.

This discussion is reaching the saturation point and should be dropped in my opinion. Nothing we discuss here will change his salary.
No, I'm saying that if Booth never gets back to his old form, we will be stuck with a bloated contract long term, which, and I don't know why this is so hard to grasp, would hurt us even more than a big market team that spends to the cap because for us, every dollar matters more. Concussions are different than most other injuries. Booth is essentially possibly one more hit away from retirement. And even if he manages to stay injury free the rest of his career, there's no guarantee he will ever be the same player he was. Concussions can ruin careers, there's plenty of evidence for that from past players who have suffered serious concussions. This is not like a broken finger or a twisted ankle.

Unfortuitous circumstance or not, if he never gets back to the old Booth, then he will be overpaid. Your value is determined by your current/recent production, not how good you were years ago.

The only reason this is a debate is because it's David Booth. If it were almost any other player, there wouldn't be so much resistance to the mere thought of putting him in trade talks. And everyone here knows that.

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01-11-2011, 11:18 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
You don't know that, and he's not Bergeron either. Every case is different. How are the Lindros brothers doing these days? Of course everyone wants to see Booth get back to the form he once had, but you can't state that as fact. He's on pace for 48 pts., hardly overwhelming and especially for his contract that has another 4 years on it.

Again, I don't want to see him out, I'm saying that he shouldn't be regarded as "untouchable" as he once was. Nobody can predict the future. He might never fully recover and we could be stuck with a bloated contract for 4 more years. It might not be the worst thing to trade him too early instead of waiting until he's untradeable, if we get the right deal. If Booth was being paid 2.7M I wouldn't have a problem with being super patient. But he's being paid to produce like a star forward.
I agree that we should be receptive to offers for Booth, but not because his contract is "bloated" (refer to my above post explaining why it isnt.)

Since no one can predict the future, thats why we have the going concern principle. We have to assume that every entity will still be an entity tomorrow. Do you propose we just hand out contracts on a game to game basis just in case someone gets injured or has a bad year?

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01-11-2011, 11:27 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by BabyJagrov View Post
Yeah... You know better...

Wouldn't call it untalented... Rather under-talented, we miss star offensive talent and everybody knows that since last summer ! Right-handed shot wasn't a propanga thing that was put in front of us, and that if solved, would bring us instant credibility around the League... It was a weakness ! One of our weakness, too bad for us we got a few more to take care of !

Have you seen who got the game winner tonight or even the game ? )
Yeah, those right-handed shots have made our power-play so lethal. Our credibility really shot through the roof.

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01-11-2011, 11:31 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
No, I'm saying that if Booth never gets back to his old form, we will be stuck with a bloated contract long term, which, and I don't know why this is so hard to grasp, would hurt us even more than a big market team that spends to the cap because for us, every dollar matters more. Concussions are different than most other injuries. Booth is essentially possibly one more hit away from retirement. And even if he manages to stay injury free the rest of his career, there's no guarantee he will ever be the same player he was. Concussions can ruin careers, there's plenty of evidence for that from past players who have suffered serious concussions. This is not like a broken finger or a twisted ankle.

Unfortuitous circumstance or not, if he never gets back to the old Booth, then he will be overpaid. Your value is determined by your current/recent production, not how good you were years ago.

The only reason this is a debate is because it's David Booth. If it were almost any other player, there wouldn't be so much resistance to the mere thought of putting him in trade talks. And everyone here knows that.
I don't think you understand how a self-imposed cap works. It isn't some arbitrary number set by pulling a number out of a hat. It's a relative number set by examining the current assets of the team, and factoring that into the accounting equation.

If we did not have Booth on our team, then the self-imposed salary cap would doubtlessly be lower, and vica versa. When talking about Booth's contract in specific, its a lot more complicated than simply looking at his point production. It's prudent to remember that hockey is a business, and thus you must view him not as a player, but as an asset of the business. When valuing an asset, you must consider other things such as goodwill, service revenue, taxes, and others that I will not go into. You do not know the specifics of the panthers finances, and thusly, can't definitively say that he is "overpaid" just because he is on pace for 48 points. You will probably need some background in accounting or running a business to understand my point.

Additionally, I don't think many on this board are actually holding the notion that Booth should be untouchable. I for one think we should actively shop all of our assets. I'm arguing that the discussion regarding Booth's contract is a moot point.


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01-12-2011, 01:46 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
I don't think you understand how a self-imposed cap works. It isn't some arbitrary number set by pulling a number out of a hat. It's a relative number set by examining the current assets of the team, and factoring that into the accounting equation.

If we did not have Booth on our team, then the self-imposed salary cap would doubtlessly be lower, and vica versa. When talking about Booth's contract in specific, its a lot more complicated than simply looking at his point production. It's prudent to remember that hockey is a business, and thus you must view him not as a player, but as an asset of the business. When valuing an asset, you must consider other things such as goodwill, service revenue, taxes, and others that I will not go into. You do not know the specifics of the panthers finances, and thusly, can't definitively say that he is "overpaid" just because he is on pace for 48 points. You will probably need some background in accounting or running a business to understand my point.

Additionally, I don't think many on this board are actually holding the notion that Booth should be untouchable. I for one think we should actively shop all of our assets. I'm arguing that the discussion regarding Booth's contract is a moot point.
I never said it's an arbitrary number, Idk how you even got that from what I said. It's obviously determined by how much the owner can spend. If we didn't have Booth on our team then the budget would be lower? How the heck do you know that?

I understand the importance of intangibles, and I've said that I recognize that, but still, I dont' care if he has intangibles coming out of his ears, you need to score more than 48 pts. to justify a contract that will see him earn 4.5M every year for the rest of his contract. It doesn't matter if he's a fan favorite, if the team uses that money wisely and ices a winning team, then the same fans will come back. I'm not even getting into the rest of your post because you are just talking about semantics. If he continues to produce at a 45-50 pt. pace for the duration of his contract, he'll be overpaid. That's the bottom line.

From the comments in this thread, it sure seems like a lot of fans consider Booth close to untouchable. The mere notion that his name should be discussed with other GMs has put the whole board in a tizzy.

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01-12-2011, 01:53 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
I don't think you understand how a self-imposed cap works. It isn't some arbitrary number set by pulling a number out of a hat. It's a relative number set by examining the current assets of the team, and factoring that into the accounting equation.

If we did not have Booth on our team, then the self-imposed salary cap would doubtlessly be lower, and vica versa. When talking about Booth's contract in specific, its a lot more complicated than simply looking at his point production. It's prudent to remember that hockey is a business, and thus you must view him not as a player, but as an asset of the business. When valuing an asset, you must consider other things such as goodwill, service revenue, taxes, and others that I will not go into. You do not know the specifics of the panthers finances, and thusly, can't definitively say that he is "overpaid" just because he is on pace for 48 points. You will probably need some background in accounting or running a business to understand my point.

Additionally, I don't think many on this board are actually holding the notion that Booth should be untouchable. I for one think we should actively shop all of our assets. I'm arguing that the discussion regarding Booth's contract is a moot point.
Just because toothbrushes are a more valuable asset to a dentist doesn't mean its a good idea to buy them for the double the normal price.

You can get 48 point players for cheaper than 4.25M. A player being overpaid is relative to the entire pool of players in the league, not one team. An asset that can do the same thing for a cheaper price is more valuable.

The only way this team will make money is if they start winning, not because they have popular players. A winning team full of lazy, unlikeable players would sell more tickets than a mediocre team full of hardworking, likeable players.

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01-12-2011, 08:11 AM
  #90
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Since we're just going to continue harping on the same point, I quoted myself in response.

Quote:
The point is, he may be paid a little more than he deserves, but the fact that we are debating it lends it legitimacy as a matter of opinion. A true albatross of a contract would raise no argument to the contrary. For example, I suspect that no one would argue that Olesz's contract is properly valued.

In the end, its of no consequence. We don't spend to the cap, and we never will, so his contract is not an issue. Olesz's contract on the other hand is an issue, because its so absurd that it renders him almost un-tradeable.

This discussion is reaching the saturation point and should be dropped in my opinion. Nothing we discuss here will change his salary.

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01-12-2011, 12:14 PM
  #91
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Yeah, those right-handed shots have made our power-play so lethal. Our credibility really shot through the roof.
I was responding to SH that's why I talked about lethal PP and credibility through the roof, and I'm claiming right-handed shots weren't a guarantee to success... It was a need !

Geez is my english that bad ?

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01-12-2011, 12:23 PM
  #92
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Booth is quickly becoming the most overrated player on this team, based on certain fans' comments.

He really hasn't been that good this year. You could make a case that he hasn't been good, at all.

He's been disappointing offensively, and has been below average, defensively.

Sure as hell shouldn't be considered untouchable.
I can say that I've seen David Booth having 10-to-15 great games this year, where he was all over the ice and getting the chances at will ! He was bad for some games for sure, and was sub-par in some others !!

Too bad in those 10 games he dominated he didn't put up the points or we wouldn't have this conversation...

We can't evaluate Booth like any other player on this team, just because what he went through last year... I'm not overrating Booth or saying he is untouchable ! I just believe we have other things to worry about before deciding if Booth's contract is a detriment to this team going forward...

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01-12-2011, 08:16 PM
  #93
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Work on your wording skills. Yep, that's exactly what I thought, you weren't clear and I'm not a mind reader. Anyone who actually thought that Wideman being here was going to propel the PP into the upper tiers of the League was going to be sorely mistaken. But, the right handed shot was clearly missing last season, you could see where teams knew the shot was going to be coming from.

Just not really sure why you chose to blast a post where the guy gives good reasons to keep Wideman and you take off on the right handed shot not being important and him swallowing medicine.
I'm assuming this is the post you referred to in your PM that you thought so highly of.

From what bodily crevasse are you pulling this notion that right-handed shots have made such a difference? What statistic has improved that can be directly attributed to Wideman's right handed shot?

If you're going to attempt such a clumsy argument, you better not rely on vague suppositions and apriorisms. That does not constitute an argument.

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01-12-2011, 08:27 PM
  #94
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Again, you don't touch on anything of substance and resort to carrying on.

Who ever said anything about the right handed shot being the end all?? Where in any of my posts or the original one that you referred to did anyone say that it's been overly affective? However, it was stated, by several, that ONLY having defensemen with left handed shots was an issue. Clearly, it's far better to have both, are you really arguing that? But, as I clearly said, anyone who thought that adding one guy with a right hander was going to catapult the PP to upper percentage of the League was going to be sorely mistaken...and you're the only one who seems to have thought that. Ya'know, since you keep bringing it up.

He touched on several good points as to why we should keep Wideman over McCabe, the right handed shot was just one, you tore into him for bringing that up. You didn't even do a good job with your points in taking his reasons apart. Then, you get mad, defensive, and start name calling when people challenge your posts.


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01-12-2011, 08:56 PM
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I'm assuming this is the post you referred to in your PM that you thought so highly of.

From what bodily crevasse are you pulling this notion that right-handed shots have made such a difference? What statistic has improved that can be directly attributed to Wideman's right handed shot?

If you're going to attempt such a clumsy argument, you better not rely on vague suppositions and apriorisms. That does not constitute an argument.
This thread is about the team blowing up, not you going into an argument with others...

You should offer your opinion on who you would trade and who you would keep, or give your opinion on why Wideman and Booth should be the first one traded ?

Because that's what I'm debating... I think we have a big number of other assets that we can dangle before those two !

Tallon will trade Frolik, McCabe, Vokoun, Allen, Stillman and even Olesz before thinking about Booth or Wideman (okay he may get the "can't refuse offer" for one of those two it is possible...)... Or at least, he should !


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01-12-2011, 09:00 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by BabyJagrov View Post
Tallon will trade Frolik, McCabe, Vokoun, Allen, Stillman and even Olesz before thinking about Booth or Wideman (okay he may get the "can't refuse offer" for one of those two it is possible...)... Or at least, he should !
Baby Jagr would trade Frolik before Booth or Wideman? Maybe you should change your name.

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01-12-2011, 09:04 PM
  #97
BabyJagrov
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
Baby Jagr would trade Frolik before Booth or Wideman? Maybe you should change your name.
I'm just afraid he won't stay long on a Dale Tallon's team... I hope I'm wrong though... I still see the PPG potential... Not as often as I would like to but still...

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01-12-2011, 09:16 PM
  #98
angry_treefrog
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Originally Posted by BabyJagrov View Post
I'm just afraid he won't stay long on a Dale Tallon's team... I hope I'm wrong though... I still see the PPG potential... Not as often as I would like to but still...
Would you rather see Frolik traded than Booth? Than Wideman?

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01-12-2011, 09:24 PM
  #99
BabyJagrov
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
Would you rather see Frolik traded than Booth? Than Wideman?
Over Wideman ? Not a chance...

Over Booth ? I would need another year before making up my mind... I wouldn't trade neither before the off-season or the draft and it would depend on the type of package !

Frolik needs to stop the long slumps and start putting pucks in regularly... Booth has got the overcome the concussion factor...

Come back in a year and I'll let you know !

As for who is my favorite player between Booth and Frolik, I think the answer is obvious...

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01-12-2011, 09:52 PM
  #100
Southern Hockey
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Again, you don't touch on anything of substance and resort to carrying on.

Who ever said anything about the right handed shot being the end all?? Where in any of my posts or the original one that you referred to did anyone say that it's been overly affective? However, it was stated, by several, that ONLY having defensemen with left handed shots was an issue. Clearly, it's far better to have both, are you really arguing that? But, as I clearly said, anyone who thought that adding one guy with a right hander was going to catapult the PP to upper percentage of the League was going to be sorely mistaken...and you're the only one who seems to have thought that. Ya'know, since you keep bringing it up.

He touched on several good points as to why we should keep Wideman over McCabe, the right handed shot was just one, you tore into him for bringing that up. You didn't even do a good job with your points in taking his reasons apart. Then, you get mad, defensive, and start name calling when people challenge your posts.

First of all, you aren't one to talk about ad hominem fallacies.

I didn't tear into anyone. I disagreed with his point about the right-handed shot being remotely significant. You are the one who took offense and got defensive, so my argument must have been effective

I'm arguing that it is inconsequential, and thus shouldn't be considered a reason to keep or not keep Wideman. I'm not saying it's worse to have both, but you can not in any statistically significant way demonstrate that a right handed shot has provided any benefits. My whole point is that it is inconsequential and such a miniscule aspect of the problems facing this team that its absurd to even mention it as a reason to keep or not keep a player.

I'm making an attempt to have an actual discussion here, but I'm sure you'll resort to blathering about how you've been here longer, and then PM me with deluded beliefs that you are 'throttling' my points.

I have no problem with people challenging my points; However, you don't seem to have the stomach for it. So if you can't handle it, then don't post. Inevitably, someone will disagree with you.


Last edited by Southern Hockey: 01-12-2011 at 09:59 PM.
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