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Old
01-12-2011, 09:01 PM
  #101
asleepinthechapel
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Originally Posted by Holy Jokinen View Post
No offense intended to the poster here, but can we ban this unbelievably immature and soooo overused "insult" or "defense" or whatever you want to call it? At least for the Panther's section, because good jeebus am i sick of seeing that.
How about you ignore him instead of complaining?

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01-12-2011, 09:03 PM
  #102
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How about you ignore him instead of complaining?
No he'd rather have something to whine about.

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01-12-2011, 09:11 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
First of all, you aren't one to talk about ad hominem fallacies.

I didn't tear into anyone. I disagreed with his point about the right-handed shot being remotely significant. You are the one who took offense and got defensive, so my argument must have been effective

I'm arguing that it is inconsequential, and thus shouldn't be considered a reason to keep or not keep Wideman. I'm not saying it's worse to have both, but you can not in any statistically significant way demonstrate that a right handed shot has provided any benefits. My whole point is that it is inconsequential and such a miniscule aspect of the problems facing this team that its absurd to even mention it as a reason to keep or not keep a player.

I'm making an attempt to have an actual discussion here, but I'm sure you'll resort to blathering about how you've been here longer, and then PM me with deluded beliefs that you are 'throttling' my points.

I have no problem with people challenging my points; However, you don't seem to have the stomach for it. So if you can't handle it, then don't post. Inevitably, someone will disagree with you.
You attacked one part of his post, and you can't statistically prove that having right hander here ISN'T helping. It could be worse, it could be better, point is, it's not hard to see that having both is a bonus. You went on to him swallowing medicine, how many teams have all lefties? And again, who here thought have A right hander on the team was going to solve the woes on the PP???

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01-12-2011, 09:17 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
You attacked one part of his post, and you can't statistically prove that having right hander here ISN'T helping. It could be worse, it could be better, point is, it's not hard to see that having both is a bonus. You went on to him swallowing medicine, how many teams have all lefties? And again, who here thought have A right hander on the team was going to solve the woes on the PP???
I'm contending that there is no difference, you contend that it has helped. The burden of proof lies squarely with you to shown that it has.

Not only has it not solved the woes, but our powerplay is worse. Much much worse. Thats not to say that a right-handed shot has made it worse, but it for damn sure hasn't helped.

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01-12-2011, 09:17 PM
  #105
asleepinthechapel
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
You attacked one part of his post, and you can't statistically prove that having right hander here ISN'T helping.
Actually you can. Check this years PP % and compare it with the percentage of previous years.

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01-12-2011, 09:22 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
I'm contending that there is no difference, you contend that it has helped. The burden of proof lies squarely with you to shown that it has.

Not only has it not solved the woes, but our powerplay is worse. Much much worse. Thats not to say that a right-handed shot has made it worse, but it for damn sure hasn't helped.
No proof lies anywhere with me. I haven't said it hasn't, the burden of proof lies with you. You're the one who started this. Prove it contributed to the PP getting worse. That it doesn't matter at all, that's your claim. My contention is that it's wise to have a shot coming from both ways, how is it not?

Anytime someone claims the 'burden of proof is on me,' it generally means they've got nothing. My point, is that it hasn't helped or hindered, it just allows for other teams to not expect the shot from one side of the point, which so often happened last season with McCabe. Teams were always going to his side.

Far more is broken with the PP, though, that whether someone is shooting from one side or the other.

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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
Actually you can. Check this years PP % and compare it with the percentage of previous years.
How many years did we have all lefties? How many years did we have both? Righties? I'm sorry, but it's not that easy.

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01-12-2011, 09:36 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
No proof lies anywhere with me. I haven't said it hasn't, the burden of proof lies with you. You're the one who started this. Prove it contributed to the PP getting worse. That it doesn't matter at all, that's your claim. My contention is that it's wise to have a shot coming from both ways, how is it not?

Anytime someone claims the 'burden of proof is on me,' it generally means they've got nothing. My point, is that it hasn't helped or hindered, it just allows for other teams to not expect the shot from one side of the point, which so often happened last season with McCabe. Teams were always going to his side.

Far more is broken with the PP, though, that whether someone is shooting from one side or the other.



How many years did we have all lefties? How many years did we have both? Righties? I'm sorry, but it's not that easy.
This is your formula for posting: "redirection to avoid posting something useful + accuse the person does the same thing in the same sentence you just did it + broad generalizations + regurgitate same points over and over"

Anyways, continuing on. You can't prove causation if you are arguing that there is no effect.

Also, I'm not sure how you don't understand the concept that the powerplay has gotten worse, therefore, right-handed shots can't have made it better.

On top of that, you can't seriously say that Wideman's grand total of 4 goals couldn't have been matched by a left handed shot.

Also also, when someone says "generally that means you have nothing", its because neither do they.

You're last paragraph doesn't even make sense.

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01-12-2011, 09:45 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
This is your formula for posting: "redirection to avoid posting something useful + accuse the person does the same thing in the same sentence you just did it + broad generalizations + regurgitate same points over and over"

Anyways, continuing on. You can't prove causation if you are arguing that there is no effect.

Also, I'm not sure how you don't understand the concept that the powerplay has gotten worse, therefore, right-handed shots can't have made it better.

On top of that, you can't seriously say that Wideman's grand total of 4 goals couldn't have been matched by a left handed shot.

Also also, when someone says "generally that means you have nothing", its because neither do they.

You're last paragraph doesn't even make sense.
ED, is that you?

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01-12-2011, 09:59 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
No proof lies anywhere with me. I haven't said it hasn't, the burden of proof lies with you. You're the one who started this. Prove it contributed to the PP getting worse. That it doesn't matter at all, that's your claim. My contention is that it's wise to have a shot coming from both ways, how is it not?

Anytime someone claims the 'burden of proof is on me,' it generally means they've got nothing. My point, is that it hasn't helped or hindered, it just allows for other teams to not expect the shot from one side of the point, which so often happened last season with McCabe. Teams were always going to his side.

Far more is broken with the PP, though, that whether someone is shooting from one side or the other.



How many years did we have all lefties? How many years did we have both? Righties? I'm sorry, but it's not that easy.
It's not that easy yet opposing teams were covering McCabe's side last year because the right-handed shot was non-existant. Why would you make such an assertion if you are unsure if the Panthers possessed any right-handed shots last year?

It is obvious that Southern Hockey's thesis is still unclear to you- that the right-handed shot on the power play has been inconsequential for us this season. There is no reason to ask him to prove how a right-handed shot contributed to diminishing PP percentage. It appears you equate Southern Hockey saying it "contributes nothing" to the PP "getting worse", or at least that how you present it.

The PP percentage speaks for itself. It is obvious that a right-handed shot has not, in any way, added any sort of potency to our PP.

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01-12-2011, 10:03 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
It's not that easy yet opposing teams were covering McCabe's side last year because the right-handed shot was non-existant. Why would you make such an assertion if you are unsure if the Panthers possessed any right-handed shots last year?

It is obvious that Southern Hockey's thesis is still unclear to you- that the right-handed shot on the power play has been inconsequential for us this season. There is no reason to ask him to prove how a right-handed shot contributed to diminishing PP percentage. It appears you equate Southern Hockey saying it "contributes nothing" to the PP "getting worse", or at least that how you present it.

The PP percentage speaks for itself. It is obvious that a right-handed shot has not, in any way, added any sort of potency to our PP.
You are correct in that he does not understand my thesis or it's underpinnings, but I've already explained it quite clearly and it's just not getting through to him.

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01-13-2011, 06:41 AM
  #111
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New article today about Tallon waiting to see how this home stand goes before any moves will be made. Struggle and you know that things will be blowing up quickly after that but not trade guys just to do so:
Quote:
"We're not going to just shop and purge here," he says. "We're going to do what's right for the franchise. I haven't given up on this team."
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/f...,1171420.story

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01-13-2011, 06:49 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
You are correct in that he does not understand my thesis or it's underpinnings, but I've already explained it quite clearly and it's just not getting through to him.
Nope...

You have been explained quite clearly, and you want to understand what you want to understand !

Actually you and asleepinthechapel are the ones who talked about the PP still being atrocious... Guess you are two of those who stupidly bought the right-handed shot on the PP would make us top-5, and you can't stand the fact it won't...

Myself... I just spoke about Wideman intangibles, and him being a right-handed is an asset... Ask any hockey coach if they like 6 lefties on D, or if they would rather had a couple of right-handed shots to mix things up... I wouldn't bet my head but I'm sure about 8 out of 10 would rather have a couple of righties in their rotation if given the chance !

So our PP is putrid this year ? Breaking news... So our PP is worst than last year ? Breaking news... At least that means you know how to read and you also know that 14 is better than 9... Well, that's a good starting point !

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01-13-2011, 10:22 AM
  #113
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definitely some heated discussion in here, title is very apt

There really should be no untouchables on a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 9 years. Whatever sensible trade works, we should make it, sentiment should not have any influence on decisions.

I don't care that Weiss has been through it and would like to be here when the team succeeds, or that Booth is a fan favorite and it isn't fair to dump him because of concussion problems, or Vokoun wants to end his season with us and see it through to the end. If any trade yields us a better fit for the team then do it.

I am really looking forward to the trade deadline to see what Tallon does. I was disappointed with some of the veterans we kept last year and want to see us get as much return as possible. Look at what happened with Stillman, someone who I wanted gone last year. We could have gotten something, anything for him but instead he kept him for another season even though we didn't expect playoffs and he gets injured and becomes untradeable. His becoming injured was an unforeseen circumstance but the possibility of it even happening could have been avoided last year. We need smarter asset management.

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01-13-2011, 10:50 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
New article today about Tallon waiting to see how this home stand goes before any moves will be made. Struggle and you know that things will be blowing up quickly after that but not trade guys just to do so:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/f...,1171420.story
it kinda makes me hope we do poorly so maybe that way he'll start earlier rather than later getting rid of the trash on this team and part ways with the guys who quite frankly have gotten use to losing.

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01-13-2011, 10:56 AM
  #115
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it kinda makes me hope we do poorly so maybe that way he'll start earlier rather than later getting rid of the trash on this team and part ways with the guys who quite frankly have gotten use to losing.
I think after this 6 game home stand we could see some moves made. Tallon has a pretty good idea of what he thinks he can get for his players so if the offer is there I see no reason why he would wait.

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01-13-2011, 01:54 PM
  #116
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Guys cool your jets or infractions will be handed out and we'll close this thread down. If you can't keep things civil put the other poster on ignore.

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01-13-2011, 02:42 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
Actually you can. Check this years PP % and compare it with the percentage of previous years.
I don't think it has much to do with having a right-handed shot. That helps, and makes the PP look less dysfunctional while they're setup, imo.

Problem is lack of big-time players; lack of big bodies in front. Also, the team had Horton last year. As much as people hated on him, there was no better playmaker on the team, and no better shot on the team than the one Horton had. He helped on the powerplay.

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01-13-2011, 02:48 PM
  #118
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By the way, in the Booth/Frolik debate, you keep Frolik.

Frolik's been better, and he's only 22.
This isn't a knock on Booth's game, but Frolik is better for the rebuild. I see no reason why Tallon should trade him, unless if we're getting something better in return.
Or maybe get a player equal to Frolik, who might be a better fit on this team. Like maybe adding more size or something.

Frolik definitely shouldn't be traded for picks, though. That would be a mistake.

He's been inconsistent, but he's still young, and he's scored over 20 goals in his first two years already. Might be on his way toward another 20+ goal season, especially if he gets on a mini-hot streak.

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01-13-2011, 02:51 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick View Post
I don't think it has much to do with having a right-handed shot. That helps, and makes the PP look less dysfunctional while they're setup, imo.

Problem is lack of big-time players; lack of big bodies in front. Also, the team had Horton last year. As much as people hated on him, there was no better playmaker on the team, and no better shot on the team than the one Horton had. He helped on the powerplay.
Nevertheless it is obvious that a right-handed shot's effect on our PP has been minuscule, if even noticeable.

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01-13-2011, 03:05 PM
  #120
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Nevertheless it is obvious that a right-handed shot's effect on our PP has been minuscule, if even noticeable.
Or it could be that that was an actual problem last year, and there's another problem this year.

No one ever said that the only thing you need for a successful powerplay is a combination of left-handed and right-handed shots. I believe it does help though, as defenders no longer know which side of the point the shot is coming from now.

I've seen a lot less Bryan McCabe slapshots blocked this year.

We just don't have a Horton this year, who can create for others/create for himself with his deadly wristshot.

We have too many north-south players; that's why we're good even strength, and suck on the powerplay.

At least that's my opinion on it. You're definitely entitled to yours.

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01-13-2011, 03:29 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Or it could be that that was an actual problem last year, and there's another problem this year.

No one ever said that the only thing you need for a successful powerplay is a combination of left-handed and right-handed shots. I believe it does help though, as defenders no longer know which side of the point the shot is coming from now.

I've seen a lot less Bryan McCabe slapshots blocked this year.

We just don't have a Horton this year, who can create for others/create for himself with his deadly wristshot.

We have too many north-south players; that's why we're good even strength, and suck on the powerplay.

At least that's my opinion on it. You're definitely entitled to yours.
I think the right-handed shot is one ingredient of a good PP, but it doesn't give you a good PP all by itself. Having righties and lefties opens up many opportunities for one-timers, and forces the PK you're facing to respect that. But if you don't have good puck movers, or if you lack a strong shooter, or a big body, then your PP is going to suffer.

I also want to mention that MOST clubs lack something in their PP, as it's a hard aspect of the game to master. But we of course, lack just about everything, including a good PP coach.

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01-13-2011, 03:34 PM
  #122
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I think the right-handed shot is one ingredient of a good PP, but it doesn't give you a good PP all by itself. Having righties and lefties opens up many opportunities for one-timers, and forces the PK you're facing to respect that. But if you don't have good puck movers, or if you lack a strong shooter, or a big body, then your PP is going to suffer.

I also want to mention that MOST clubs lack something in their PP, as it's a hard aspect of the game to master. But we of course, lack just about everything, including a good PP coach.
In other words, we basically agree.

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01-13-2011, 03:35 PM
  #123
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Or it could be that that was an actual problem last year, and there's another problem this year.

No one ever said that the only thing you need for a successful powerplay is a combination of left-handed and right-handed shots. I believe it does help though, as defenders no longer know which side of the point the shot is coming from now.

I've seen a lot less Bryan McCabe slapshots blocked this year.

We just don't have a Horton this year, who can create for others/create for himself with his deadly wristshot.

We have too many north-south players; that's why we're good even strength, and suck on the powerplay.

At least that's my opinion on it. You're definitely entitled to yours.
i'd agree.

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01-13-2011, 03:51 PM
  #124
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Our main problem with the PP seems to be effort. We don't do a good job of outworking the pkers. We could be a little bit more creative but that isn't necessary to having a decent PP. However, we have become way too predictable.

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01-13-2011, 04:14 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Or it could be that that was an actual problem last year, and there's another problem this year.

No one ever said that the only thing you need for a successful powerplay is a combination of left-handed and right-handed shots. I believe it does help though, as defenders no longer know which side of the point the shot is coming from now.

I've seen a lot less Bryan McCabe slapshots blocked this year.

We just don't have a Horton this year, who can create for others/create for himself with his deadly wristshot.

We have too many north-south players; that's why we're good even strength, and suck on the powerplay.

At least that's my opinion on it. You're definitely entitled to yours.
Yep. A lot of things (mainly players) have changed since last season. I've been trying to say exactly that the whole damn time.

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