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Old
01-13-2011, 06:00 PM
  #126
Holy Jokinen
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
How about you ignore him instead of complaining?
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
No he'd rather have something to whine about.
That's what i get for saying "no offense intended."

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Old
01-13-2011, 06:56 PM
  #127
asleepinthechapel
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Originally Posted by Holy Jokinen View Post
That's what i get for saying "no offense intended."

Gotta love HF.
It's interesting how no offense can be intended when you call for a ban because you believe someone is immensely immature.

Gotta love HF.

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01-13-2011, 07:06 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Yep. A lot of things (mainly players) have changed since last season. I've been trying to say exactly that the whole damn time.
When you think about not that many players that are on the power play have changed. The point remains that a right-handed shot is not nearly as important as some of you make it out to be. Personnel changes or not, acquiring a right-handed has ultimately been inconsequential for our PP's lethality. I am highly dubious that our PP would be even more anemic at the moment if we only possessed left-hand shots.

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01-13-2011, 07:24 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
When you think about not that many players that are on the power play have changed. The point remains that a right-handed shot is not nearly as important as some of you make it out to be. Personnel changes or not, acquiring a right-handed has ultimately been inconsequential for our PP's lethality. I am highly dubious that our PP would be even more anemic at the moment if we only possessed left-hand shots.
Can't prove that it wouldn't be. The whole argument is ridiculous. The original argument is that he'd rather keep Wideman over McCabe going forward, Wideman's right hander was ONE point that he'd brought up and another poster teed off on it. Would you rather have McCabe than Wideman? Personally, I would, but I'm not terrible indifferent to it.

Where he shoots from isn't hurting, and there are far too many things looking at the PP that need to be taken into account as to why it's sunk, having a right-hander isn't one of them.

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Old
01-13-2011, 07:25 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
It's interesting how no offense can be intended when you call for a ban because you believe someone is immensely immature.

Gotta love HF.
Except, he was asking for a phrase ban, not a ban of the poster.

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01-13-2011, 07:56 PM
  #131
asleepinthechapel
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Can't prove that it wouldn't be. The whole argument is ridiculous. The original argument is that he'd rather keep Wideman over McCabe going forward, Wideman's right hander was ONE point that he'd brought up and another poster teed off on it. Would you rather have McCabe than Wideman? Personally, I would, but I'm not terrible indifferent to it.

Where he shoots from isn't hurting, and there are far too many things looking at the PP that need to be taken into account as to why it's sunk, having a right-hander isn't one of them.
Obviously I can't prove it, however the conclusion is logical. Half of what is said on here cannot be proven.
You're still missing my point. I never said that having a right-hand shot was a causation of our abysmal PP, rather, that the aid we gain from a right-handed shot is insignificant. Thus concluding to retain Wideman over McCabe, primarily because he possesses a right-handed shot, would be ill-advised. A right-handed shot should have no bearing on a decision as to wether we choose one player over another. Its effect here has been close to zero.

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01-13-2011, 08:08 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
Obviously I can't prove it, however the conclusion is logical. Half of what is said on here cannot be proven.
You're still missing my point. I never said that having a right-hand shot was a causation of our abysmal PP, rather, that the aid we gain from a right-handed shot is insignificant. Thus concluding to retain Wideman over McCabe, primarily because he possesses a right-handed shot, would be ill-advised. A right-handed shot should have no bearing on a decision as to wether we choose one player over another. Its effect here has been close to zero.
It wasn't primary. Other things were brought up, age being one of those. His shot was just one of a few, but another poster honed in on that shot in a rough post.

And, you say you can't prove it, then say that it's effect has been close to zero. I'll take a guy who is younger and has that shot. I think the two are pretty even in terms of skill, I like Wideman, but I wouldn't mind re-signing Caber, just don't think he should be captain.

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Old
01-13-2011, 10:28 PM
  #133
asleepinthechapel
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
It wasn't primary. Other things were brought up, age being one of those. His shot was just one of a few, but another poster honed in on that shot in a rough post.

And, you say you can't prove it, then say that it's effect has been close to zero. I'll take a guy who is younger and has that shot. I think the two are pretty even in terms of skill, I like Wideman, but I wouldn't mind re-signing Caber, just don't think he should be captain.
I cannot prove that our powerplay would not be worse without right-handed shots, obviously that is impossible. However, I can argue that the right-handed shot has not been effective because I have evidence to illustrate it - a 9% PP effectiveness. Having a right-handed shot, for the millionth time, has been inconsequential.


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Old
01-13-2011, 11:04 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
I cannot prove that our powerplay would not be worse without right-handed shots, obviously that is impossible. However, I can argue that the right-handed shot has not been effective because I have evidence to illustrate it - a 9% PP effectiveness. Having a right-handed shot, for the millionth time, has been inconsequential.
And for the millionth time, how many other things have changed? Again, you say you can't prove it, but then arrive at an obvious and ready conclusion. Either way, you came in late and missed part of the discussion. I'm done with it, tho. We'll have to agree to disagree.

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Old
01-13-2011, 11:37 PM
  #135
asleepinthechapel
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
And for the millionth time, how many other things have changed? Again, you say you can't prove it, but then arrive at an obvious and ready conclusion. Either way, you came in late and missed part of the discussion. I'm done with it, tho. We'll have to agree to disagree.
We have addressed some of the other factors- I am still not sure how you fail to understand that a right-handed shot doesn't add much effectiveness when the Wideman only has four goals and our power play is last in the league.
Let me lay this out for real simple;
I cannot prove that our team would be worse without a right-handed shot because I have no ability to remove right-handed players from the roster.
However, by assaying statistical evidence (this is where our PP % comes into play), one can logically assess that a right-hand shot does not offer much succor to our PP. If it did, we would not be dead last.
I am clueless where you're finding this link from me not being able to "prove it" then "arrive at an obvious and ready conclusion." The two instances to which you refer are separate issues and as such should be evaluated differently. You're connecting two categorically disparate situations, I don't know why.
Also a side note: It's a little bit contradictory when this team is praised for their hard effort on the ice by many posters, just to be accused of being lackadaisical on the PP.

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Old
01-14-2011, 12:21 AM
  #136
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Again, you say you can't prove it, but then try to by bringing up the pp%. It can't work both ways. And again, a lot of players have changed since last season, and other teams with righties aren't low in the League, and they aren't last.

Simply put, there's a lot wrong with our pp, and (again) the original post being debated was whether to keep Wideman or Caber. Why are you so stuck on the right handed shot?

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Old
01-14-2011, 01:42 AM
  #137
asleepinthechapel
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Again, you say you can't prove it, but then try to by bringing up the pp%. It can't work both ways. And again, a lot of players have changed since last season, and other teams with righties aren't low in the League, and they aren't last.

Simply put, there's a lot wrong with our pp, and (again) the original post being debated was whether to keep Wideman or Caber. Why are you so stuck on the right handed shot?
Wow...
I don't know how much more clearly I can articulate my idea. How is it not getting through your head- I am saying I can't prove X, however X is unrelated to what I am trying to prove, Y. I can attempt to "prove" Y because enough evidence is available to draw some sort of logical/viable conclusion.

I'm well aware that there are other teams with right handed shots that are more successful than us on the power-play, we are dead last after all.
Also, arguments evolve, we aren't simply debating the original post any longer. The right-handed shot was the main topic of discussion when I joined in, so that's probably why I've been posting about it?

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01-14-2011, 06:53 AM
  #138
Southern Hockey
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
We have addressed some of the other factors- I am still not sure how you fail to understand that a right-handed shot doesn't add much effectiveness when the Wideman only has four goals and our power play is last in the league.
Let me lay this out for real simple;
I cannot prove that our team would be worse without a right-handed shot because I have no ability to remove right-handed players from the roster.
However, by assaying statistical evidence (this is where our PP % comes into play), one can logically assess that a right-hand shot does not offer much succor to our PP. If it did, we would not be dead last.
I am clueless where you're finding this link from me not being able to "prove it" then "arrive at an obvious and ready conclusion." The two instances to which you refer are separate issues and as such should be evaluated differently. You're connecting two categorically disparate situations, I don't know why.
Also a side note: It's a little bit contradictory when this team is praised for their hard effort on the ice by many posters, just to be accused of being lackadaisical on the PP.
I don't think they grasp how Null and Hypothetic statements work. In this instance, his contention that the right-handed shot has helped is the Hypothetic statement. Our contention that it has done nothing is the Null. In order to reject a null you need statistically significant evidence, if you cannot provide that statistical evidence, the null hypothesis stands.

He is just as incapable of garnering any empirical evidence that it HAS helped, and are thusly, the null statement that nothing has been changed by a right-handed shot stands.

Additionally, him asking for "proof" is a logical fallacy because we aren't trying to "prove" anything. We content that nothing has even happened to be proven. In order to prove causation there has to be an effect. He, on the other hand, is trying to prove causation that right-handed shots = better powerplay, and has provided no empirical evidence for that. In fact, any statistically significant evidence seems to point in the other direction. I'm not sure how one can look at a severely WORSE power play, and say with any degree of seriousness that right handed shots have made it better.


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Old
01-14-2011, 09:19 AM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
Additionally, him asking for "proof" is a logical fallacy because we aren't trying to "prove" anything. We content that nothing has even happened to be proven. In order to prove causation there has to be an effect. He, on the other hand, is trying to prove causation that right-handed shots = better powerplay, and has provided no empirical evidence for that. In fact, any statistically significant evidence seems to point in the other direction. I'm not sure how one can look at a severely WORSE power play, and say with any degree of seriousness that right handed shots have made it better.
That's where you're lost, you and asleepinthechapel, you are wrong !

This thread is about blowing the team, trading its pieces !

I said I would keep Wideman before any of our veterans defensemen, because he is younger, as talented as any of them, a Tallon's boy and shoots right-handed ! And I could come with other examples of why I would keep Wideman ahead of our veterans...

YOU brought the PP argument, thinking I was talking about it... I never did... So you are wrong obviously when you "attack" Laus or me !

If you want to talk about our putrid PP and why right-handed shot hasn't improved it, go create your own thread !

Here we are talking about blowing the team, trading and keeping guys... Move on !

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Old
01-14-2011, 09:25 AM
  #140
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My original post on page 3...

Quote:
Wideman would be the last one of our veteran defensemen I would trade !

He is very much comparable to McCabe, younger, cheaper and a right-handed shot !

Trade McCabe and Allen before Wideman !

Dennis can be a nice number 2 or 3, and he is identified as such... Not like McCabe who is supposed to be our number one and can't be one !
Your answer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
Still with the right-handed shot nonsense? I thought the fact that our powerplay that is ~9%, for which a right-handed shot was supposedly a panacea, would have made painfully obvious to most of you that it was a load of bull****

But go ahead, keep swallowing the medicine.
You are the first in this thread to talk about the PP...

I didn't know that Dennis played right-handed on the PP, and left-handed the whole game...

Enough ?

Back on topic as I've said...

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Old
01-14-2011, 11:02 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by BabyJagrov View Post
My original post on page 3...



Your answer:



You are the first in this thread to talk about the PP...

I didn't know that Dennis played right-handed on the PP, and left-handed the whole game...

Enough ?

Back on topic as I've said...
Agreed, I made this post hoping to talk about the pieces on the team we may part with... this wasn't intended to be a thread to bash each other over silly stuff.....

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Old
01-14-2011, 11:06 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by HockeyRulez View Post
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklun...ermeer/1/32776

Apparently the rangers are going after Vandermeer from Edm. Also, McCabe, Higgins, Stillman,Dvorak,Vokoun(anyone surprised?), are on Eklund's Top 50 Players To Watch Come Trade Deadline, with Vokoun and McCabe #7,#8 on the list (yes, Eklund...)

I don't know if this would be called a "rumor", so i posted it hear, IMO its not.
I think this backs the article in that the panthers will most likely get rid of several players. Thoughts, comments?
Also, I posted this 3 or 4 days ago on page 2 I believe... I wanted to know what you guys thought....

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01-14-2011, 11:17 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by HockeyRulez View Post
Also, I posted this 3 or 4 days ago on page 2 I believe... I wanted to know what you guys thought....
Veterans who are good/decent with expiring contracts are always potential trade targets.

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01-14-2011, 03:14 PM
  #144
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I think we need to keep Dvorak and Reasoner (I am not sure if he has a one year contract or longer) and I'd give Higgins another year unless we can find a better replacement. Dvorak and Reasoner are no brainers.. I'd like to see Dvorak retire a Panther but both of these players are like the poster-kids of Veteran leaders. They do an outstanding job at doing their jobs and I see no reason to let them go anywhere. Higgins, while isn't on pace to score 30-40+ goals this season, does bring a lot of speed, creates a lot of chances, and can hit the back of the net. He's got 16 points in 34 games and is a +9, so he doesn't hurt our offense.

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