HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > San Jose Sharks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Realistic trade options?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-12-2011, 11:30 AM
  #26
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,323
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herschel View Post
I would like to see a trade made with Buffalo, two move make sense IMO

Niedermayer + Rivet/Montador

For me the Sharks address multiple needs with these pick ups.

Neidermayer adds shutdown centre who can easily take over the 3rd line role if Couture is out for any period of time. He is responsible in his own zone and will help make up for the inexperience of guys like Braun and Demers.

Rivet and Montador are both have good shots and can spend time on the PP, both are able to play top 4 minutes.

Since all these players are UFA it shouldn't take too much to make a deal like this happen.
Part of what got the Sharks in trouble was experience.

Rivet has the worst qualities of Wallin and Vlasic. The Sharks need puckhandling on the backend and Rivet is definitely not it. He was having issues while still with the Sharks and they are getting worse now, much worse.

IMO, the best option is no trades. Put it back on the players and tell them that there will be no help this year unless they play like a little help will give them a real shot at a run (I don't think that will happen).

Go to the offseason and reassess the org and what went wrong. How did they get the wrong fits? Why was the team not ready for the season? What was wrong with their assessment of "leadership" and team needs? Put more than the players on the hot seat. Why are the Sharks getting no secondary scoring developed from within their org? What is wrong with de-emphasizing speed? What is wrong with de-emphasizing puck movement from the back end?

Probably the biggest note is looking to find out who in the org thinks that veteran scoring is going to lead the Sharks to a cup. All they need do is look to recent winners to find the age group from which playoff scoring is obtained.

SJeasy is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 11:31 AM
  #27
Jesus Toews*
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Davis, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
Seto, Huskins and a 1st for Tyutin and (rental) Hejda.

Waive Wallin.
I think Tyutin is a terrific fit but not at anywhere near that cost. Honestly, there isn't much I'd trade Seto for at this point. He's played himself out of a raise for next season so it's very possible, with a bounce-back year, we'll have a first-line winger on the team for less than $2mil next season. Even if he isn't that, the worst case scenario is a useful third liner with speed at about the price point you'd expect for that type of player. Giving up what could be as high as the 12th overall pick in addition is laughable.

Jesus Toews* is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 11:32 AM
  #28
ChompChomp
SACK T-MAC
 
ChompChomp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dallas, TX (Ugh)
Country: United States
Posts: 8,934
vCash: 500
Seto, Heatley, Vlasic and a 1st for Enstrom, Hainsey and either A. Stewart or Bergfors (maybe Evander Kane if you think Sharks are giving up too much).

ChompChomp is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 11:35 AM
  #29
Jesus Toews*
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Davis, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
Seto, Heatley, Vlasic and a 1st for Enstrom, Hainsey and either A. Stewart or Bergfors (maybe Evander Kane if you think Sharks are giving up too much).
Seriously? The Thrashers are not giving up their best player in Enstrom period. And you want them to add a future superstar in Evander Kane? Not to mention you're suggesting they bring back Dany Heatley to drive on Georgia freeways.

Jesus Toews* is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 11:36 AM
  #30
hockeyball
Registered User
 
hockeyball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 17,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
Seto, Heatley, Vlasic and a 1st for Enstrom, Hainsey and either A. Stewart or Bergfors (maybe Evander Kane if you think Sharks are giving up too much).
Problem is Heatley is not going to go back to Atlanta. That is a pipe dream.

Send them Thornton!

hockeyball is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 11:39 AM
  #31
Jesus Toews*
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Davis, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Problem is Heatley is not going to go back to Atlanta. That is a pipe dream.

Send them Thornton!
Heatley is not even the biggest issue with that trade. It's the notion that the Thrashers would ever move their best player and one of the best defensemen in the league this season in addition to a #4 overall pick who looks like a power forward version of Zach Parise on most nights for anything short of Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Getzlaf+Perry or any ridiculous impossible offer like that. Not going to happen. Ever. Dudley has done everything right since becoming GM and he isn't going to **** up now.

Jesus Toews* is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 11:42 AM
  #32
19sharks19
Registered User
 
19sharks19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: T.O. to S.J. & back
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,873
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnstyles View Post
Doug blew it in the offseason. For a GM vaunted for his trading ability, he blew it on Halak and Ballard and was predictably spurned by every FA. With the right moves to address the defense, this team could be competitive even despite the four behemoth contracts. I see this team as going in very much the same direction as JFJ's Maple Leafs post-lockout. Hopefully we don't get a Burke-like moron to succeed DW and trade away all our draft picks.
Excellent point. For what Halak signed for, we would have been very solid with a duo of Nitty/Halak or even Halak/Greiss. Ballard would have been a very solid addition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjshrky27 View Post
Heatley for Byfuglien
Hmmm, one whom isn't afraid to play in the "dirty areas" and, a big body to add as well. Question is, will Atlanta go for it?! Byf. would look perfect on big Joe's line as, he'd always have that big body in front of the net for him to get the puck to.

19sharks19 is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 11:51 AM
  #33
Herschel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 379
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post

Probably the biggest note is looking to find out who in the org thinks that veteran scoring is going to lead the Sharks to a cup. All they need do is look to recent winners to find the age group from which playoff scoring is obtained.
But wasn't this suppose to be addressed by Pavalski, Couture, Seto and to lesser degree Clowe?

I don't see this Shark Roster as being one made up of over the hill vets. The best team in the NHL (Canucks) gets the bulk of its scoring from guys 30+. The issue right now is that those veterans aren't scoring. Nor are the bulk of the "kids."

Herschel is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 11:54 AM
  #34
ChompChomp
SACK T-MAC
 
ChompChomp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dallas, TX (Ugh)
Country: United States
Posts: 8,934
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
IMO, the best option is no trades. Put it back on the players and tell them that there will be no help this year unless they play like a little help will give them a real shot at a run (I don't think that will happen).
You are right in thinking that won't happen, because the organization won't let it happen. As it is the arena looks empty, saw tons of empty seats last night. With no moves and the current slide continuing, less and less people will go to games which hurts the bottom line (all SVSE cares about). That's why moves will occur, if nothing else, to show the fanbase why they need to keep attending games.

ChompChomp is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 11:54 AM
  #35
925Sharkie
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 925
Country: United States
Posts: 3
vCash: 500
To me looks like the Sharks are playing scared. Is it possible that they need an enforcer in the lineup for them to play better and not scared? Last year when Shelly was in the game they played well and this year with McLaren was in line up they did ok so could they use a enforcer to get them going?

925Sharkie is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 11:55 AM
  #36
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,323
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
Excellent point. For what Halak signed for, we would have been very solid with a duo of Nitty/Halak or even Halak/Greiss. Ballard would have been a very solid addition.



Hmmm, one whom isn't afraid to play in the "dirty areas" and, a big body to add as well. Question is, will Atlanta go for it?! Byf. would look perfect on big Joe's line as, he'd always have that big body in front of the net for him to get the puck to.
Buffy is in line in the Norris voting. Since when has a Norris candidate been on the block for anything short of a king's ransom?

They need to reassess the thinking in the org before they do any trading. Some of the current issues were very predictable.

SJeasy is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 11:57 AM
  #37
ChompChomp
SACK T-MAC
 
ChompChomp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dallas, TX (Ugh)
Country: United States
Posts: 8,934
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 925Sharkie View Post
To me looks like the Sharks are playing scared. Is it possible that they need an enforcer in the lineup for them to play better and not scared? Last year when Shelly was in the game they played well and this year with McLaren was in line up they did ok so could they use a enforcer to get them going?
IMHO, the lack of an enforcer is not a problem here. In terms of scoring, for example, I don't think an enforcer will help them move away having everyone on the perimeter and getting one or two forwards into the high slot.

ChompChomp is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 12:00 PM
  #38
SharkXJ
Registered User
 
SharkXJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 585
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to SharkXJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Next season we lose Wallin, Huskins and Niemi's cap hits. Niitty does not have a NTC and can also be moved if need be. Seto or Mcginn do not look likely to receive raises either. We already have Boyle, Vlasic, Murray and Demers locked up through next season. We have Braun ready for full time NHL duty at league minimum. On top of that, if we can find a way to offload one of our big 4 contracts we honestly are in pretty good position to recoup some draft picks and prospects, clear some space, and possibly fill out our roster with a UFA.

So yes, for gods sake, wait till the off-season unless the trade is a no-brainer.
X2 on this one......

SharkXJ is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 12:02 PM
  #39
19sharks19
Registered User
 
19sharks19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: T.O. to S.J. & back
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,873
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Buffy is in line in the Norris voting. Since when has a Norris candidate been on the block for anything short of a king's ransom?

They need to reassess the thinking in the org before they do any trading. Some of the current issues were very predictable.
You can say that again Jeasy.

19sharks19 is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 12:04 PM
  #40
Jesus Toews*
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Davis, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Buffy is in line in the Norris voting. Since when has a Norris candidate been on the block for anything short of a king's ransom?

They need to reassess the thinking in the org before they do any trading. Some of the current issues were very predictable.
Or just get rid of the members of the org responsible for the mess altogether. I hope I'm wrong, but DW strikes me as someone too proud to admit he made fundamental errors in retooling the team this offseason (and systemic errors in criteria for acquiring players in the past). He needs to go.

Jesus Toews* is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 12:08 PM
  #41
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,323
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herschel View Post
But wasn't this suppose to be addressed by Pavalski, Couture, Seto and to lesser degree Clowe?

I don't see this Shark Roster as being one made up of over the hill vets. The best team in the NHL (Canucks) gets the bulk of its scoring from guys 30+. The issue right now is that those veterans aren't scoring. Nor are the bulk of the "kids."
The Nucks have Kesler and the young dmen leading the way. The Sedins are steady. It was the breakouts by Kesler, Raymond, and Burrows and the acquisition of Ehrhoff that pushed them over the hump. The Canucks haven't won it all yet.

The one difference that I see with the Nucks is that they don't advertise the Sedins as being best in the league selling it to fans and players. Other than the Pens with Crosby, no winner has sold their team as being led by some untouchable to the promised land. It is almost always multiples.

There is another background difference. The Sedins spend every summer working on new plays to spring on the league in the following season. Part of the issue for the "superstars" on any team is if they stop improving their game, they rapidly decline. The more tape on what they do, the less room that they are given as their tendencies are known. Wouldn't it be nice to hear that Patty, JT, et al spent the summer together working on some new wrinkles in their play. This same difference is mitigated when a team gets a new coach who brings in new ideas and can also be mitigated by a single trade for a guy who changes the chemistry of the top guys. They got the Heatley bump last year, now the tape is out there.

SJeasy is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 12:08 PM
  #42
Naki
Registered User
 
Naki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,254
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnstyles View Post
Or just get rid of the members of the org responsible for the mess altogether. I hope I'm wrong, but DW strikes me as someone too proud to admit he made fundamental errors in retooling the team this offseason (and systemic errors in criteria for acquiring players in the past). He needs to go.
I don't know if they would get rid of the members responsible for the mess. If you look at the team simply as a business and you want to maximize profits then DW has done a good job.
They sell out games and have 4 big name players who are marketable.

Naki is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 12:09 PM
  #43
Jesus Toews*
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Davis, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naki View Post
I don't know if they would get rid of the members responsible for the mess. If you look at the team simply as a business and you want to maximize profits then DW has done a good job.
They sell out games and have 4 big name players who are marketable.
If they even make the playoffs this year, it will assuredly be a first round exit which hurts profits.

Jesus Toews* is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 12:10 PM
  #44
Artful_Dodger*
 
Artful_Dodger*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The CLT
Posts: 4,285
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
You realize Drury's cap his is 7m right? Your cleaning .5m in cap space this season, how does that help us? We certainly are not going to win the cup this season (I've been saying that since the off-season) so yes obviously don't waste assets trying.

Next season we lose Wallin, Huskins and Niemi's cap hits. Niitty does not have a NTC and can also be moved if need be. Seto or Mcginn do not look likely to receive raises either. We already have Boyle, Vlasic, Murray and Demers locked up through next season. We have Braun ready for full time NHL duty at league minimum. On top of that, if we can find a way to offload one of our big 4 contracts we honestly are in pretty good position to recoup some draft picks and prospects, clear some space, and possibly fill out our roster with a UFA.

So yes, for gods sake, wait till the off-season unless the trade is a no-brainer.
I do realize that and so does the OP. I didn't say it helped us this season or next, but said it was a realistic trade that would free cap space in two years. I also said I couldn't see cap space being freed in a deal involving Heatley.

Now you're talking about unloading one of the big four contracts in the offseason. Unless you're moving them for a pittance, how do you expect to do that without taking salary in return? Especially after the seasons they are putting together.

Artful_Dodger* is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 12:15 PM
  #45
VP and GM
Havlat is gone!
 
VP and GM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: at home
Country: United States
Posts: 5,367
vCash: 500
Well, when your team is playing like **** and the GM becomes more desparate to make a deal the other GMs will see him comming - assets will cost more to obtain. This means DW would have to over spend for a player which he just does not do. I can't stress enough the importance of making or in DWs case not making deals in the off season - costs are at least fair and not overpayment generally.

Any resonable deal at this time that would not cost us much would be for a player that really would not help. Any bigger deals would cost us a core player and or hight end picks/prospects. I'm ok with the latter not for former - we don't need no stinking #5 depth D or a checking line winger.

VP and GM is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 12:16 PM
  #46
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,323
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artful_Dodger View Post
I do realize that and so does the OP. I didn't say it helped us this season or next, but said it was a realistic trade that would free cap space in two years. I also said I couldn't see cap space being freed in a deal involving Heatley.

Now you're talking about unloading one of the big four contracts in the offseason. Unless you're moving them for a pittance, how do you expect to do that without taking salary in return? Especially after the seasons they are putting together.
Underperforming, big contracts garner little return as you say. They are desperation trades which frequently are followed by trades of the acquired players.

There is one caveat if Heatley performs at a moderate level. A cap floor team can take him on for a real payout of $6mil vs his $7.5mil cap hit. It lowers their real payroll. It is also provided that he is still providing $6mil worth of performance.

SJeasy is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 12:17 PM
  #47
hockeyball
Registered User
 
hockeyball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 17,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artful_Dodger View Post
I do realize that and so does the OP. I didn't say it helped us this season or next, but said it was a realistic trade that would free cap space in two years. I also said I couldn't see cap space being freed in a deal involving Heatley.

Now you're talking about unloading one of the big four contracts in the offseason. Unless you're moving them for a pittance, how do you expect to do that without taking salary in return? Especially after the seasons they are putting together.
You are upset, as am I, and are undervaluing these guys. Thornton is still a #1 center, someone many teams in the league are in dire need of. They won't give up a kings ransom, but he could be moved with a reasonable return (not counting the NTC). Heatley may or may not have a NTC, and he still puts up a lot of points and has the potential to score a LOT of goals, again, something a lot of teams lack. Marleau is a two-way forward that can play wing or center and would fill a big need on a lot of teams. Boyle obviously would demand a considerable return (not that I would trade him).

All 4 of those guys have considerable value. They are under performing somewhat, but not to the point of negative value int he slightest. Other teams will see the same thing we do and bet on the fact that poor coaching and bad chemistry are at play.

We won't get max value for them, but we could absolutely get considerable picks, prospects and cap space.

hockeyball is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 12:21 PM
  #48
Naki
Registered User
 
Naki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,254
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
You are upset, as am I, and are undervaluing these guys. Thornton is still a #1 center, someone many teams in the league are in dire need of. They won't give up a kings ransom, but he could be moved with a reasonable return (not counting the NTC). Heatley may or may not have a NTC, and he still puts up a lot of points and has the potential to score a LOT of goals, again, something a lot of teams lack. Marleau is a two-way forward that can play wing or center and would fill a big need on a lot of teams. Boyle obviously would demand a considerable return (not that I would trade him).

All 4 of those guys have considerable value. They are under performing somewhat, but not to the point of negative value int he slightest. Other teams will see the same thing we do and bet on the fact that poor coaching and bad chemistry are at play.

We won't get max value for them, but we could absolutely get considerable picks, prospects and cap space.
it is unlikely San Jose moves any of the big 4. Thats why I was thinking of a guys like Cody Franson or Kevin Kline. Young inexpensive d-men who shouldnt cost much to get and are an upgrade to our current D core.

Naki is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 12:26 PM
  #49
Nighthock
**** the Kings...
 
Nighthock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Reno, NV
Country: United States
Posts: 15,801
vCash: 163
Doug will not do anything that has a positive effect on this team

Nighthock is offline  
Old
01-12-2011, 12:32 PM
  #50
Herschel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 379
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
The one difference that I see with the Nucks is that they don't advertise the Sedins as being best in the league selling it to fans and players. Other than the Pens with Crosby, no winner has sold their team as being led by some untouchable to the promised land. It is almost always multiples.
But in Vancouver you don't have to sell hockey at all, in San Jose there is a lot more marketing that needed to put people in the stands. Hence the need to "SELL" you marketable players to the fans.

Quote:
There is another background difference. The Sedins spend every summer working on new plays to spring on the league in the following season. Part of the issue for the "superstars" on any team is if they stop improving their game, they rapidly decline.
Great point but other than the Sedins do you have an example of this? Not many team have elite level twins who basically share the same brain.

Quote:
The more tape on what they do, the less room that they are given as their tendencies are known. Wouldn't it be nice to hear that Patty, JT, et al spent the summer together working on some new wrinkles in their play.
I 100% agree that teams have "figured out" the Shark's top players. And the Shark's top players know who to counter that but don't have the personnel to do it. Team are playing much deeper against the Shark this season and forcing them to work it up high to the points. But there is no real shooting threat to allow the Sharks to exploit this.

Pavelski's presence on the PP illustrates that TM & Co know they are missing a cannon from the point. I don't think it is surprising that PP is struggling so much with him out of the lineup.

Herschel is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:56 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.