HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Other Leagues > ECHL and other Minor Pro Leagues
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2

St.John's & ECHL?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-12-2011, 08:28 PM
  #1
Canadienjet
Registered User
 
Canadienjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,569
vCash: 500
St.John's & ECHL?

On the front page of the paper today..

http://www.thetelegram.com/Sports/Ho...Hockey-ahead/1

Canadienjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-12-2011, 10:15 PM
  #2
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 56,980
vCash: 500
Nothing about travel expenses being paid to visiting teams.

Sounds viable, if they can get some support.

LadyStanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2011, 01:27 PM
  #3
billycanuck
Registered User
 
billycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 461
vCash: 500
I wonder if they could negotiate a favourable arena lease agreement since the Mile One is vacant and could probably use a major tenant. Anybody know what the Fog Devil's lease agreement was?

Would be cool for Montreal or Toronto to have an all-Canadian farm system like Vancouver (Manitoba, Victoria).

billycanuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2011, 11:23 AM
  #4
Canadienjet
Registered User
 
Canadienjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,569
vCash: 500
Another article

http://www.thetelegram.com/Opinion/C...-Mile-One%3F/1

Canadienjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2011, 02:50 PM
  #5
Johnny8242
Registered User
 
Johnny8242's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Greenville, SC
Country: United States
Posts: 928
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Johnny8242
I don't care so far I've heard nothing but negativity from fans in that area. They must think ECHL Is beer league or something. They obviously think their entitled to a higher level of hockey......

Johnny8242 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2011, 05:53 PM
  #6
wjhl2009fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9,043
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny8242 View Post
I don't care so far I've heard nothing but negativity from fans in that area. They must think ECHL Is beer league or something. They obviously think their entitled to a higher level of hockey......
Canada is a massive major jr market and yes for many its a better brand of hockey vs echl even ahl.

wjhl2009fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2011, 06:04 PM
  #7
Canadienjet
Registered User
 
Canadienjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,569
vCash: 500
People are uneducated in regards to the ECHL.They called Junior Hockey "high school hockey" this city needs to warm up to something.I have watched the ECHL from time to time and it's good hockey and other agree with me so don't paint us with the same brush.People look for **** to whine about and most of them are not from St.John's.Don't take it too harsh.

Canadienjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2011, 06:12 PM
  #8
wjhl2009fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9,043
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfiehabsfan View Post
People are uneducated in regards to the ECHL.They called Junior Hockey "high school hockey" this city needs to warm up to something.I have watched the ECHL from time to time and it's good hockey and other agree with me so don't paint us with the same brush.People look for **** to whine about and most of them are not from St.John's.Don't take it too harsh.
Its not there uneducated some like minor hockey and some like seeing top level prospect play.Keep in mind there are some major jr teams that avg more then most echl teams and ahl teams in terms of attendance and no its not like high school hockey.

wjhl2009fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2011, 06:29 PM
  #9
Canadienjet
Registered User
 
Canadienjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,569
vCash: 500
I honestly think the ECHL can work here given the chance and Junior can as well.A decision will have to be made soon.People have to go out and support this because there wont be a 4th chance.It don't matter what we get some will like others will not was like that when the AHL arrived and when the QMJHL did as well.

Canadienjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2011, 08:04 PM
  #10
CHRDANHUTCH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Auburn, Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 15,478
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to CHRDANHUTCH Send a message via MSN to CHRDANHUTCH Send a message via Yahoo to CHRDANHUTCH
Quote:
Originally Posted by billycanuck View Post
I wonder if they could negotiate a favourable arena lease agreement since the Mile One is vacant and could probably use a major tenant. Anybody know what the Fog Devil's lease agreement was?

Would be cool for Montreal or Toronto to have an all-Canadian farm system like Vancouver (Manitoba, Victoria).
pretty much the same lease that sunk the Maple Leafs sunk the Fog Devils

CHRDANHUTCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2011, 08:56 PM
  #11
finchster
Registered User
 
finchster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Belgorod
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 7,741
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to finchster
I would perfer St John's have a QMJHL team again, it gives the young kids the ability to play at home and develop. If St John's gets an ECHL team, I won't be cheering for the Salmon kings anymore haha

finchster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2011, 08:59 PM
  #12
finchster
Registered User
 
finchster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Belgorod
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 7,741
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to finchster
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
pretty much the same lease that sunk the Maple Leafs sunk the Fog Devils
That's not true, Toronto wanted to have the farm team closer to the Leafs. Sometimes it was impossible to call up a player if the Toronto was on the road, getting from St John's to just about anywhere is a pain in the ass.

finchster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-16-2011, 09:58 AM
  #13
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny8242 View Post
I don't care so far I've heard nothing but negativity from fans in that area. They must think ECHL Is beer league or something. They obviously think their entitled to a higher level of hockey......
i doubt you'll find anyone in st.john's who has ever seen an echl game. i confess, i'm totally ignorant when it comes to the echl. i assume its a lower level of pro hockey, played mostly without much passion or enthusiasm. i assume the players simply go through the motions and collect their pay checks. but i could be wrong.

i do know that the echl makes no sense for st.john's. we have no connection to that league, we would have no rivalries, and we don't know anything about it. having an echl team won't put st.john's back on the hockey map the way having another qmjhl team would.

Frankie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-16-2011, 10:20 AM
  #14
Johnny8242
Registered User
 
Johnny8242's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Greenville, SC
Country: United States
Posts: 928
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Johnny8242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
i doubt you'll find anyone in st.john's who has ever seen an echl game. i confess, i'm totally ignorant when it comes to the echl. i assume its a lower level of pro hockey, played mostly without much passion or enthusiasm. i assume the players simply go through the motions and collect their pay checks. but i could be wrong.

i do know that the echl makes no sense for st.john's. we have no connection to that league, we would have no rivalries, and we don't know anything about it. having an echl team won't put st.john's back on the hockey map the way having another qmjhl team would.

Yeah I hope you guys get a Q Team but I really don't care . ECHL needs to Get another market that has had / would be interested in and ECHL Team. I have to say I believe a lot of people would prefer ECHL to AHL. At least I know many because its not all contracted players there aren't teams like you see in the AHL skating around with terrible records all for the sake of "developing" some NHL Teams prospects.

Johnny8242 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-16-2011, 10:26 AM
  #15
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny8242 View Post
Yeah I hope you guys get a Q Team but I really don't care . ECHL needs to Get another market that has had / would be interested in and ECHL Team. I have to say I believe a lot of people would prefer ECHL to AHL. At least I know many because its not all contracted players there aren't teams like you see in the AHL skating around with terrible records all for the sake of "developing" some NHL Teams prospects.
i agree totally with that. i think it'd rather echl than ahl. first and foremost, i want a team that's a st.john's team. a team that's playing first and foremost to win for itself and for its fans. not interested in a league like the ahl that only exists to feed the nhl parent team.

Frankie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-16-2011, 12:08 PM
  #16
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 56,980
vCash: 500
ECHL games are often played with passion.

Some guys are trying to get recalls to AHL. That's the way to do it.

LadyStanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2011, 10:13 AM
  #17
garnetpalmetto
HFBoards Sponsor
 
garnetpalmetto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Durham, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 4,633
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny8242 View Post
I don't care so far I've heard nothing but negativity from fans in that area. They must think ECHL Is beer league or something. They obviously think their entitled to a higher level of hockey......
I used to hang around the Victoria Salmon Kings board and saw a lot of this attitude as well prior to the team starting. I found that after the team started playing - and especially after they moved into their home arena - that the attitude that the ECHL is some beer league filled with plumbers dissipated and people began to realize that the ECHL isn't bad hockey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
i doubt you'll find anyone in st.john's who has ever seen an echl game. i confess, i'm totally ignorant when it comes to the echl. i assume its a lower level of pro hockey, played mostly without much passion or enthusiasm. i assume the players simply go through the motions and collect their pay checks. but i could be wrong.

i do know that the echl makes no sense for st.john's. we have no connection to that league, we would have no rivalries, and we don't know anything about it. having an echl team won't put st.john's back on the hockey map the way having another qmjhl team would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
ECHL games are often played with passion.

Some guys are trying to get recalls to AHL. That's the way to do it.
Sorry, Frankie, but you are wrong, and LadyStanley hits it on the head. I think I've seen more of a lackadaisical attitude from NHLers rather than ECHLers. Yes, you do have some ECHLers who are lazy and think that AA is beneath them, but for the most part, the ECHLers I've seen play with a chip on their shoulder and are out to prove to the world that they should have been drafted or drafted higher. Take guys like Chad LaRose and Alex Burrows, for instance. Both went undrafted and started play in the 'E. They played with passion and enthusiasm, caught the attention of AHL/NHL scouts, and soon moved up and on in the hockey world. Most guys are busting their butts to get noticed by their team's AHL affiliate or to get a tryout contract in the 'A.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
i agree totally with that. i think it'd rather echl than ahl. first and foremost, i want a team that's a st.john's team. a team that's playing first and foremost to win for itself and for its fans. not interested in a league like the ahl that only exists to feed the nhl parent team.
You realize that all ECHL teams have an AHL and NHL affiliate and that they are part of the farm system, right? Granted, most teams only have a handful of players who are part of that parent team's system, but the ECHL is a league that feeds higher leagues.

garnetpalmetto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2011, 01:40 PM
  #18
Prussian_Blue
Registered User
 
Prussian_Blue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Germany
Posts: 7,753
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
i agree totally with that. i think it'd rather echl than ahl. first and foremost, i want a team that's a st.john's team. a team that's playing first and foremost to win for itself and for its fans. not interested in a league like the ahl that only exists to feed the nhl parent team.
Then, as was mentioned above, an ECHL team would be ideal for St. John's if they were to put a pro team in the Mile One Center.

The ECHL does feed the AHL, yes, but as pointed out, the average ECHL team has maybe two or three guys -- tops -- who are part of their NHL parent team's system. Nearly all of the rest are guys who will be in St. John's all year long, playing and winning for St. John's.

Now, if you get a guy who's dominating at that level and isn't part of someone's NHL organization yet, there's a good chance he'd get a callup to the AHL affiliate for at least a look-see on a PTO contract. But more often than not, those players get returned to the ECHL after a few games in the "A."

The ECHL isn't the old UHL or, God forbid, the AAHL or Federal League. The ECHL is a solid, stable league made up of players who are, for the most part, on their way up or have at least attained the highest pro level at which they can play and excel consistently. The ECHL is very good hockey, and it's in some major markets (Chicago next year, metro Atlanta [Gwinnett], Cincinnati, Las Vegas).

St. John's would do well to get an ECHL team. I agree that a QMJHL club might be more in line with the general Canadian disposition towards major junior, but my understanding is that the "standard" lease arrangement at the Mile One Center is not exactly favorable to any club, pro or junior, that bases themselves in that facility.

The way to get a team -- any team -- in St. John's is to have facility management be willing to make some concessions in order to put butts in the seats 30-40 times a year more often then they currently are.

The remoteness of St. John's isn't that great a factor, considering Anchorage has hosted a very successful ECHL operation for a number of years, and I'm sure that the Aces management would be glad to help a potential St. John's franchise with a few pointers as to how to profitably do business in a venue so remote from the rest of the league.


Last edited by Prussian_Blue: 01-17-2011 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Corrected a few typos...
Prussian_Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2011, 04:00 PM
  #19
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by garnetpalmetto View Post
Sorry, Frankie, but you are wrong, and LadyStanley hits it on the head. I think I've seen more of a lackadaisical attitude from NHLers rather than ECHLers. Yes, you do have some ECHLers who are lazy and think that AA is beneath them, but for the most part, the ECHLers I've seen play with a chip on their shoulder and are out to prove to the world that they should have been drafted or drafted higher. Take guys like Chad LaRose and Alex Burrows, for instance. Both went undrafted and started play in the 'E. They played with passion and enthusiasm, caught the attention of AHL/NHL scouts, and soon moved up and on in the hockey world. Most guys are busting their butts to get noticed by their team's AHL affiliate or to get a tryout contract in the 'A.
no need to apologize. i said i could be wrong, and i could be wrong. though i'm not truly buying this theory that players are playing with passion and enthusiasm in an effort to get an ahl deal. i'm sure some are, but i would think that's few and far between. i watched ahl hockey for years and the theory was the same...players busting their butts to get up into the nhl. i suppose it was true in some cases, but i saw an awful lot of games that were absolute snoozers. it looked like the players had nothing to play for on most nights.

Quote:
You realize that all ECHL teams have an AHL and NHL affiliate and that they are part of the farm system, right? Granted, most teams only have a handful of players who are part of that parent team's system, but the ECHL is a league that feeds higher leagues.
i do realize that, but as you said, its only a handful of players at most who are attached to an nhl organization. the teams in the echl do not exist only to feed the ahl and nhl parent teams. i assume their priority is to win as many games as possible and win a championship? that's not the priority in recent years for most ahl teams.

Frankie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2011, 04:06 PM
  #20
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
Then, as was mentioned above, an ECHL team would be ideal for St. John's if they were to put a pro team in the Mile One Center.

The ECHL does feed the AHL, yes, but as pointed out, the average ECHL team has maybe two or three guys -- tops -- who are part of their NHL parent team's system. Nearly all of the rest are guys who will be in St. John's all year long, playing and winning for St. John's.
this sounds great, and i think what most fans in st.john's would want to see. if any potential echl team in st.john's could be affiliated with toronto or montreal, in think that would further boost the team's fortunes. having 3 or 4 leafs or habs prospects on the team wouldn't hurt at all.

Quote:
St. John's would do well to get an ECHL team. I agree that a QMJHL club might be more in line with the general Canadian disposition towards major junior, but my understanding is that the "standard" lease arrangement at the Mile One Center is not exactly favorable to any club, pro or junior, that bases themselves in that facility.

The way to get a team -- any team -- in St. John's is to have facility management be willing to make some concessions in order to put butts in the seats 30-40 times a year more often then they currently are.

The remoteness of St. John's isn't that great a factor, considering Anchorage has hosted a very successful ECHL operation for a number of years, and I'm sure that the Aces management would be glad to help a potential St. John's franchise with a few pointers as to how to profitably do business in a venue so remote from the rest of the league.
you're correct, the management at mile one doesn't seem to be flexible at all when it comes to a lease. the qmjhl fog devils were doomed for failure because of a bad lease agreement. i don't think mile one management understands the benefits of having a hockey team, regardless of the league, as a major tenant.

and you're right, if this ever happens, they would be very wise to get some help or perhaps even follow the model in anchorage.

Frankie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2011, 07:38 PM
  #21
HoverCarle*
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,859
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to HoverCarle*
I'd try and go to games, even if it were ECHL

HoverCarle* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2011, 10:28 PM
  #22
CHRDANHUTCH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Auburn, Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 15,478
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to CHRDANHUTCH Send a message via MSN to CHRDANHUTCH Send a message via Yahoo to CHRDANHUTCH
Quote:
Originally Posted by finchster View Post
That's not true, Toronto wanted to have the farm team closer to the Leafs. Sometimes it was impossible to call up a player if the Toronto was on the road, getting from St John's to just about anywhere is a pain in the ass.
not true, Finchster

SJSE had the same lease for both franchises and it sunk both franchises when it became known that Dobbin was selling the Fog Devils, to Miller in Montreal...

that's why MLSE moved the Leafs to Ricoh....

CHRDANHUTCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 07:47 AM
  #23
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
not true, Finchster

SJSE had the same lease for both franchises and it sunk both franchises when it became known that Dobbin was selling the Fog Devils, to Miller in Montreal...

that's why MLSE moved the Leafs to Ricoh....
that's absolutely wrong.

Frankie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 12:38 PM
  #24
finchster
Registered User
 
finchster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Belgorod
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 7,741
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to finchster
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
not true, Finchster

SJSE had the same lease for both franchises and it sunk both franchises when it became known that Dobbin was selling the Fog Devils, to Miller in Montreal...

that's why MLSE moved the Leafs to Ricoh....
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/...afs040809.html

Quote:
Bob Hunter, the company's vice-president, said the Maple Leafs would have been happy to have negotiated an extension of their contract in St. John's.

He said the departure of the Edmonton Oilers' Roadrunners American Hockey League farm team from Toronto presented an opportunity that could not be resisted.

Hunter added that the new location would make more economic sense for the Leafs. He also explained the move would make it easier for the Leafs front office to monitor the progress of its developing players.
This article from the day tells me things were fine in St John's (which they were) but being able to move the farm team close to home made too much sense at the time. I never heard anything financially negative about the SJML, if I recall they were doing well.

As for the Fog Devils, yes they have economic troubles and those troubles probably included the lease. It would also include the higher transportation costs associated with the team. It isn’t like the Moose Jaw Warriors who can take the bus to Brandon, the Fog Devils had to fly everywhere.

EDIT:
http://www.thewesternstar.com/Footba...g-Fog-Devils/1

Quote:
Dobbin's warning comes while the Fog Devils are in discussions with St. John's Sports and Entertainment about a new lease agreement for the team at the city-operated Mile One Centre and as he holds talks with the league about reducing the team's travel budget, which includes payment to cover the costs of visiting teams flying here. And he agrees cutting expenses could be a key - but not a total - contributor in improving the bottom line.

"There's a lot of things we can do," he said. "We we're working the league on the travel. The city really seems to want to work with us to improve the lease.
Poor attendance + Lease + travel = no team

I don't even think it was a 'bad lease', just bad economics surrounding the team.


Last edited by finchster: 01-18-2011 at 12:53 PM.
finchster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 02:42 PM
  #25
Great One
Registered User
 
Great One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 543
vCash: 500
I for one would NOT like to see the ECHL come to St. John's. I know this sounds kind of foolish considering we have an empty building right now with no team to fill the seats but, i honestly believe that the ECHL is not the way to go. What many people who do not live in the province don't realize is that the province contains 2 senior hockey leagues, the Avalon East and West Coast hockey league, that draw even more fans than our past Fog Devils franchise. At the end of the season the winners of both these leagues play off in a 7 game series at known as the Herder Memorial. This series draws thousands of fans to Mile One each year and unless you know someone in either organization it is very difficult to obtain tickets as they sell out within minutes of going on sale. In the past few years most of the players in these leagues have been getting paid by the organization with some players even making as much as $30,000 a season. Also many of these players are former junior, ECHL, AHL and even a few former NHL players who jumped at the opportunity to move back home and still be able to play the game they love and make some cash while doing so. Believe it or not, alot of these players are still very capable of playing pro hockey and could even be high end players playing in leagues such as the ECHL or some European organizations.

The point i'm trying to make is that i don't believe this city/province will, all of a sudden, start following and supporting a semi-pro league like the ECHL when we've got the same talent and calibre of hockey already in the province. Also i believe that our next franchise may be the last kick of the can for us and if we do recieve an ECHL franchise and it fails, like i believe it would, then this may hurt any chances of ever being awarded with another franchise again. I truly believe that the QMJHL or AHL are the only leagues that have a chance of surviving in this province.

Great One is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:24 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.