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Why a Defensive Coach?

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Old
01-15-2011, 06:02 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Most of our rushes consist of one person rushing in with the puck, throwing it away because of zero puck support and then 20 seconds later the opposition is nicely set up in our own zone because they face zero opposition at our blueline. I guess it truly is easier to let price do the work and hope for a good rebound but that wont win you jack.
Just wondering: were you under the impression that the Habs get out-shot most of the time by a wide margin? You seem to imply that, and yet it's very, very far from the truth, here in 2010-11.

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01-15-2011, 06:53 PM
  #52
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Can people stop with the "need" for superstars in order to have an offensive team. Look at Philly, they don't have a superstar forward exactly. Instead, what they have are many top players that are of high calibre, but not superstar. We can do the same thing during the off-season and by drafting properly. All it would take is a year or two and we could change our image totally without the need of a superstar.

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01-15-2011, 08:11 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Just wondering: were you under the impression that the Habs get out-shot most of the time by a wide margin? You seem to imply that, and yet it's very, very far from the truth, here in 2010-11.
Yes we get lots of shots from the perimeter, big deal.

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01-15-2011, 08:46 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Our puck possession has improved? What games are you even watching? The passing on the powerplay is a mess and no one can hold the puck for longer than a second or two. We can't even hemm a team in their own zone for longer than 30 seconds.
Yes, it has improved.

Check out our corsi stats this year, http://objectivenhl.blogspot.com/201...goalposts.html

Last year it was much worse. And it was much better, but the recent losing streak has affected it. The Habs have lessened their time in the defensive zone dramatically compared to last year. By the way, the PP has NOTHING to do with puck possession.

Once again, offensive zone pressure isn't the teams strength, its scoring off the rush. Of course, spending more time in the offensive zone would be greatly appreciated, but I am not too worried about it.

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I am really starting to wonder who on this board actually watches the games instead of just looking at our winning record and the stat sheets and saying "oh better than last year we must be improving
Are you seriously implying that I don't watch the hockey games? Consider this, I have been in Colombia for 3 and a half months, and I am STILL watching 75% of the games.

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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Yes we get lots of shots from the perimeter, big deal.
We get alot of shots from everywhere, its something that has improved this season, we are outshooting opponents more often than not. Finish has been a problem, but it will come.

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01-15-2011, 09:38 PM
  #55
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Maybe Muller will have the team play more offensively than JM would.

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01-15-2011, 10:58 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
So it all comes down to markov again? Lets get this out of the way, Markov does NOT make this a top 3 team!
I dont know who said markov makes this club a top 3 team. That is you steering away from the topic at hand. He is, however, the habs best player along with Price and his absence will cause an impact on the final results for the season.


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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
We can't get out of our own zone in less than 5 passes and most of the players would rather fire the puck away as soon as anyone approaches them. No one goes to the front of the net and the other teams clue in on this stuff. You want to see puck possession go watch Detroit or Vancouver, that is real hockey and our "style" doesn't stand a chance agaainst that.
5 passes is an exaggeration, but its a method used to build up speed in the neutral zone and back the defense up. You dump the puck in if its not a clean break out or if you need to go change. Contrary to what you say, there are habs players who do go to the net. Whether they get pushed out too easy is another issue, but a guy like gionta has made a career out of it, and if we take tonight's game as an example, all three goals were a direct of result of being at or around the net. You saw lundqvist eventually lost his cool too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Most of our rushes consist of one person rushing in with the puck, throwing it away because of zero puck support and then 20 seconds later the opposition is nicely set up in our own zone because they face zero opposition at our blueline. I guess it truly is easier to let price do the work and hope for a good rebound but that wont win you jack.
I'm confused here, because if the puck is just thrown away, like you say, then how come it takes 20 seconds for the opposition to get set up in the other end?


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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
It is no small miracle that our conference is doing so poorly because we would easily be down at the bottom. I find it hilarious this team was once leading our division.

I know just making the playoffs is all most habs fans want anymore because mediocrity rules supreme around here but finishing 8th is getting mighty old.
Its no secret that the west is tougher, but your thread was about the coach. I'm saying that given the peices that martin has to work with, he's done a satisfactory job.

Nobody likes finishing 8th all year, but thats not what this thread is about. You are steering away from the topic at hand.

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Old
01-16-2011, 12:48 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
I dont know who said markov makes this club a top 3 team. That is you steering away from the topic at hand. He is, however, the habs best player along with Price and his absence will cause an impact on the final results for the season.
Quote:
Alot of this can be attributed to losing your PP QB but at the end of the day
I know this is your attempt to divert all blame onto being without Markov again because that is the same lame excuse tossed out every time the guy goes down. You brought it up and it is your attempt to dilute the topic.

I don't give a **** if he is in or not, the team is playing poorly and that is what this is about.

Quote:
5 passes is an exaggeration, but its a method used to build up speed in the neutral zone and back the defense up. You dump the puck in if its not a clean break out or if you need to go change. Contrary to what you say, there are habs players who do go to the net. Whether they get pushed out too easy is another issue, but a guy like gionta has made a career out of it, and if we take tonight's game as an example, all three goals were a direct of result of being at or around the net. You saw lundqvist eventually lost his cool too.
Passing isn't a method used to build up speed in this world or any other. Allowing your forwards to break out and moving out with one or two passes is where speed lies. When you toss the puck around 4 or 5 times the other teams defenders have plenty of time to get into position. If you don't know something don't just pull nonsense out of your ass.

Lundqvist was angry because he thought Pacioretty didn't make any attempt to avoid the net. I said no one goes to the front of the net and we don't truely have a player that sits in front of the net and gets garbage goals. Crashing the net once in awhile isnt the same thing.

Mod edit:

Quote:
Its no secret that the west is tougher, but your thread was about the coach. I'm saying that given the peices that martin has to work with, he's done a satisfactory job.

Nobody likes finishing 8th all year, but thats not what this thread is about. You are steering away from the topic at hand.
He hasn't done a satisfactory job. He crawled into the playoffs on a terrible year and rode a hot goalie. Now he is riding another hot goalie hoping to drag his corpse into the playoffs again.

The results is exactly what this thread is about. JM is not getting the most out of these players and we are ending up in 8th place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Are you seriously implying that I don't watch the hockey games? Consider this, I have been in Colombia for 3 and a half months, and I am STILL watching 75% of the games.

We get alot of shots from everywhere, its something that has improved this season, we are outshooting opponents more often than not. Finish has been a problem, but it will come.
Don't give a damn about corsi stats, watch the games, and yes anyone who thinks this team is drastically improved with reguards to puck possession hasn't been watching the games.

We get a pile of shots from the outside, which wont get us anywhere when we play against a team like the flyers or the pens or the red wings or the canucks.


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 01-16-2011 at 01:20 PM. Reason: Removed partial quote and response.
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Old
01-16-2011, 01:13 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
I know this is your attempt to divert all blame onto being without Markov again because that is the same lame excuse tossed out every time the guy goes down. You brought it up and it is your attempt to dilute the topic.

I don't give a **** if he is in or not, the team is playing poorly and that is what this is about.



Passing isn't a method used to build up speed in this world or any other. Allowing your forwards to break out and moving out with one or two passes is where speed lies. When you toss the puck around 4 or 5 times the other teams defenders have plenty of time to get into position. If you don't know something don't just pull nonsense out of your ass.

Mod edit:


He hasn't done a satisfactory job. He crawled into the playoffs on a terrible year and rode a hot goalie. Now he is riding another hot goalie hoping to drag his corpse into the playoffs again.

The results is exactly what this thread is about. JM is not getting the most out of these players and we are ending up in 8th place.



Don't give a damn about corsi stats, watch the games, and yes anyone who thinks this team is drastically improved with reguards to puck possession hasn't been watching the games.

We get a pile of shots from the outside, which wont get us anywhere when we play against a team like the flyers or the pens or the red wings or the canucks.
I dont think me and you watch the same breakouts. Of course, the team doesnt have the greatest puck movers out there on the back end. Subban does it well once in a while (and will get better) and Wiz is okay at it, but its poetry in motion when the forwards come back and build up speed and the d-men break them loose with a short pass in stride.

Of course, its not always gonna work that way, for example, if you're at the end of the shift and you need the puck out of your zone, then you take the simple play. If I'm not mistaken, Mike Babcock (coach of the red wings) commented on how he loves the habs breakout... maybe he's just throwing a bone, but I dont think so.

As for the lundqvist thing, thats my whole point. If the players "never" go to the net, then he would have nothing to worry about. Patches would have never driven to the net in the first place with that theory. Like I said, all 3 goals were due to a net presence.

I think with the roster that the habs currently have to work with, finishing around 6-8th is not a bad thing. If we cant agree on that, then we simply have to agree to disagree.


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 01-16-2011 at 01:20 PM. Reason: Edited quoted post.
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Old
01-16-2011, 08:05 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Yes we get lots of shots from the perimeter, big deal.
You're not getting away with that sleight of hand. You originally stated that our offence consisted of one guy heading up ice with no puck support and just giving the puck back to the opponents, who then come back and set up for long stretches in our zone. If that were true, we would NOT be getting lots of shots, from the perimeter or anywhere else.

Also, I'm LOL at the downplaying of the Habs' shot totals in most games this year by saying they are coming from the outside. That is EXACTLY what the Habs did to Washington and Pittsburgh, to a large degree, during the playoffs, during those key games where we earned an early lead and played a "bend but don't break" style while protecting that lead. Yet many of the same critics of the team's composition and of the coach said that you should not win if you are being outshot.

Here, my friends, is the TRUTH: the moves we made to replace Koivu, Kovalev, Tanguay, Lang, Kostopoulos, Schneider, Bouillon, Dandenault, Brisebois and Komisarek, plus coach Carbonneau, were by and large a success. We are a better team now than in 08-09. We are better coached. And we are better placed for the future since we are younger and faster than before.

Are we perfect? No. But after one and a half seasons and two great Cup round upsets, I must say openly that the degrees of bitterness about the roster re-vamp and the coaching hire are simply not in sync with reality.

Let's just enjoy the games, folks!

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01-16-2011, 09:16 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
You're not getting away with that sleight of hand. You originally stated that our offence consisted of one guy heading up ice with no puck support and just giving the puck back to the opponents, who then come back and set up for long stretches in our zone. If that were true, we would NOT be getting lots of shots, from the perimeter or anywhere else.

Also, I'm LOL at the downplaying of the Habs' shot totals in most games this year by saying they are coming from the outside. That is EXACTLY what the Habs did to Washington and Pittsburgh, to a large degree, during the playoffs, during those key games where we earned an early lead and played a "bend but don't break" style while protecting that lead. Yet many of the same critics of the team's composition and of the coach said that you should not win if you are being outshot.

Here, my friends, is the TRUTH: the moves we made to replace Koivu, Kovalev, Tanguay, Lang, Kostopoulos, Schneider, Bouillon, Dandenault, Brisebois and Komisarek, plus coach Carbonneau, were by and large a success. We are a better team now than in 08-09. We are better coached. And we are better placed for the future since we are younger and faster than before.

Are we perfect? No. But after one and a half seasons and two great Cup round upsets, I must say openly that the degrees of bitterness about the roster re-vamp and the coaching hire are simply not in sync with reality.

Let's just enjoy the games, folks!
You were probably quick to downplay the fact the Habs were absolutely terrible last year in reference to Shot differential. This year it's an argument in your favor. How convenient? I too find the habs are playing better, but they are still an offensively starved team, especially 5on5. This is not a fluke. The powerplay will bail them out again, but it doesn't translate well for the playoffs where the whistles are put away.

99% of shots the goalies sees are stopped. You can tell we don't have many players to play this role when Darche is still getting pp time and one of the better contributors because of it. We look better than last year, but still not in the upper echelon of teams imo.

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01-16-2011, 09:57 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
You were probably quick to downplay the fact the Habs were absolutely terrible last year in reference to Shot differential. This year it's an argument in your favor. How convenient? I too find the habs are playing better, but they are still an offensively starved team, especially 5on5. This is not a fluke. The powerplay will bail them out again, but it doesn't translate well for the playoffs where the whistles are put away.

99% of shots the goalies sees are stopped. You can tell we don't have many players to play this role when Darche is still getting pp time and one of the better contributors because of it. We look better than last year, but still not in the upper echelon of teams imo.
The Habs are offensively in the lower echelon, but better than last year, while DEFENSIVELY, we have cut down on chances against and are hemmed in our own zone less than in 09-10 and 08-09.

That's all I am saying. It was the OP who greatly exaggerated and I called him on it.

I am not saying we NEVER go up ice, lose the puck and have the other team come back and stay in our zone for a long time. But it is far, far from the norm. This year, in 10-11, we are in possession of the puck MORE THAN the opponents.

Should we have a greater net presence? Of course!! But that was not the premise of the OP, who advocated the Habs play a style of trading 3-on-2 rushes with the opponents.

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01-17-2011, 09:38 AM
  #62
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habs fans are gonna *****, news at 11.

fire martin, play offensively, lose games because we don't have the talent, backpedal: it's the coaches fault/i told you so.

with the talent we have the way martin is coaching is the only way this club will ever win games, period. because we change the coaching, were suddenly gonna find ourselves with a dozen 30 goal scorer? a non-streaky cammy? a young gomez? a better pleks? a motivated ak46? an experienced patches? godzilla-subban? jesus price? david des-st-louis? l'arcelleur that can actually score? pyatt finds his scoring touch in the refrigerator?

no.

or: EVERYBODY PANIC FIRE EVERYBODY

whichever you prefer

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Old
01-17-2011, 11:29 AM
  #63
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Can people stop with the "need" for superstars in order to have an offensive team. Look at Philly, they don't have a superstar forward exactly. Instead, what they have are many top players that are of high calibre, but not superstar. We can do the same thing during the off-season and by drafting properly. All it would take is a year or two and we could change our image totally without the need of a superstar.
Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Claude Giroux, Daniel Briere.

All players more offensively gifted than any one else on our team. Sad part is we could've had 3/4 of them.

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01-17-2011, 12:23 PM
  #64
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This is the first year since likely the mid-90's (stopped checking at 2000-2001) where we have actually outshot our opposition. We are also one of the top shooting teams in the league right now all the while playing responsibly at both ends of the ice.

Plus, we're winning more than we should. The great start we had (which, for some reason Martin is not getting any credit for), just threw many of your expectations out of whack. The habs are not a contender, especially not without Markov.

Without our best player, we are a borderline playoff team. Even with him, many predicted we'd miss the playoffs at the start of the year.

JM's job is to win, not to pad our players' offensive stats.

You just know you can't be taken seriously when you want us to be more like the Leafs and Oilers. If you want to see an exciting team that loses. Feel free to jump on their bandwagon.

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01-17-2011, 12:24 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
The Habs are offensively in the lower echelon, but better than last year, while DEFENSIVELY, we have cut down on chances against and are hemmed in our own zone less than in 09-10 and 08-09.

That's all I am saying. It was the OP who greatly exaggerated and I called him on it.

I am not saying we NEVER go up ice, lose the puck and have the other team come back and stay in our zone for a long time. But it is far, far from the norm. This year, in 10-11, we are in possession of the puck MORE THAN the opponents.

Should we have a greater net presence? Of course!! But that was not the premise of the OP, who advocated the Habs play a style of trading 3-on-2 rushes with the opponents.
My apologies and I agree.

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01-17-2011, 09:38 PM
  #66
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I can see this team is truely build for defense, just look at how we defended our 4 goal lead tonight.

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01-18-2011, 06:54 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
I can see this team is truely build for defense, just look at how we defended our 4 goal lead tonight.
You take away any credibility you'd otherwise have with these posts.


I dislike the JM system, the JM style and hell even the JM results. This is an offensively gifted team that is being choked into playing boring hockey. It's a travesty to watch and nigh unenjoyable. The last 15 game have been sloppy at best, on average.

I can't see any way out of it either, if the team catches fire again it'll be the same thing all over again: Habs get the first goal, other team pushes back, habs score another off a counter-attack, Habs win 2-1/3-2. The first goal is vital for this team and it's pretty pathetic, it means they can't play hockey unless the other team is pushing 3 men up.

tl;dr The trap sucks, we need a better coach.

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01-18-2011, 07:23 AM
  #68
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You take away any credibility you'd otherwise have with these posts.


I dislike the JM system, the JM style and hell even the JM results. This is an offensively gifted team that is being choked into playing boring hockey. It's a travesty to watch and nigh unenjoyable. The last 15 game have been sloppy at best, on average.

I can't see any way out of it either, if the team catches fire again it'll be the same thing all over again: Habs get the first goal, other team pushes back, habs score another off a counter-attack, Habs win 2-1/3-2. The first goal is vital for this team and it's pretty pathetic, it means they can't play hockey unless the other team is pushing 3 men up.

tl;dr The trap sucks, we need a better coach.
I swear I saw this team come from behind to win twice against the NYR, once against PIT, another against ATL (lost in OT), BOS, FLO...

they came back from behind to win a game 5X, and lost in OT once after coming from behind... in a span of what, 19 or 20 days ?


If thats what you consider pathetic, I'm with you on this, IT IS

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