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Old
01-17-2011, 01:23 PM
  #51
umbyforpresident
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That's the beauty of it all MT-SVK. We don't have to agree!

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01-17-2011, 02:04 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by umbyforpresident View Post
That's the beauty of it all MT-SVK. We don't have to agree!
I know it.
Fortunately Howson will not make this trade....
If I would know that some player help us and he should some prize I would sacrife Nikki but Spezza, Kaberle and similar are not these players. Spezza is not Richards.

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01-17-2011, 03:11 PM
  #53
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Ottawa fan back again

I would do:
Brassard
Voracek

or

Johansen
Filatov
salary dump

or

Brassard
Filatov
1st

Commodore use to be on the Sens but I don't think they left on good terms
Ottawa also doesn't like Russian prospect, a couple of bad experiences.

Ottawa could offer a PMD to sweeten the pot
Karlsson= almost untouchable
Gonchar= just signed and he has a no trade clause could be had though
Kuba= yours if you want him
Campoli= would be the most likely IMO The Sens kinda forced him into a stay at home d-man but he would be a good #4 and can play the power play

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Old
01-17-2011, 03:23 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
I know it.
Fortunately Howson will not make this trade....
If I would know that some player help us and he should some prize I would sacrife Nikki but Spezza, Kaberle and similar are not these players. Spezza is not Richards.
Sorry MT, but you are crazy. I don't know how any CBJ fan can honestly say "we don't need Spezza".
You say he's overrated, but who is overrating him?? I don't see anything like that, I don't think he's under or overrated around here. He is what he is, a #1 center that we have never had.
If anyone is overrating someone, it's you with Filatov, he's not the superstar you say he is. He can be someday, but that day will not come this year or probably next.

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01-17-2011, 03:25 PM
  #55
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I just don't see any of those happening, wilfred.

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Old
01-17-2011, 03:27 PM
  #56
General Saad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilfred View Post
Ottawa fan back again

I would do:
Brassard
Voracek

or

Johansen
Filatov
salary dump

or

Brassard
Filatov
1st

Commodore use to be on the Sens but I don't think they left on good terms
Ottawa also doesn't like Russian prospect, a couple of bad experiences.

Ottawa could offer a PMD to sweeten the pot
Karlsson= almost untouchable
Gonchar= just signed and he has a no trade clause could be had though
Kuba= yours if you want him
Campoli= would be the most likely IMO The Sens kinda forced him into a stay at home d-man but he would be a good #4 and can play the power play
Sign me up for the first option. Brassard and Voracek for Spezza. Although many of our fans have a love affair for Voracek, I for one think we have enough guys that consistently miss the net. Jake could have 25 goals this season if he would hit the net. He is a great skater though, and a pretty good playmaker. Brassard has come on as of late, and has a pretty good shot. He just needs to learn to play with more agressiveness.

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Old
01-17-2011, 03:29 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyes1 View Post
Sign me up for the first option. Brassard and Voracek for Spezza. Although many of our fans have a love affair for Voracek, I for one think we have enough guys that consistently miss the net. Jake could have 25 goals this season if he would hit the net. He is a great skater though, and a pretty good playmaker. Brassard has come on as of late, and has a pretty good shot. He just needs to learn to play with more agressiveness.
The love affair with Jake never made sense. It started with DougRiffle mentioned in every thread that he was going to be an 80 point player this year, then everyone kind of latched on to that idea. But the only way he scores 80 is if he gets about 70 assists, and that's never going to happen, at least not on this team. He is what he is, a 50-60 point winger who turns over the puck alot and is average on the defensive end.

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Old
01-17-2011, 03:43 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
Sorry MT, but you are crazy. I don't know how any CBJ fan can honestly say "we don't need Spezza".
You say he's overrated, but who is overrating him?? I don't see anything like that, I don't think he's under or overrated around here. He is what he is, a #1 center that we have never had.
If anyone is overrating someone, it's you with Filatov, he's not the superstar you say he is. He can be someday, but that day will not come this year or probably next.
And do you think we need a often injured center who can be injured when we will need him more? Center who take 7 millions and have not achievments for seven millions? Crosby`s salary is 8,7 millions. Only 1,7 millions more than Spezza who does not know play in the key situations. Sorrz no. Too much prize for him. I would not be too happy but I would understand Filly`s trade for Richards but not for overrated Spezza.
I am not crazy I am realist but you imagine trades as:



The same opinion is about Voráček or Johansen.


Last edited by mt-svk: 01-17-2011 at 03:53 PM.
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Old
01-17-2011, 03:50 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
The love affair with Jake never made sense. It started with DougRiffle mentioned in every thread that he was going to be an 80 point player this year, then everyone kind of latched on to that idea. But the only way he scores 80 is if he gets about 70 assists, and that's never going to happen, at least not on this team. He is what he is, a 50-60 point winger who turns over the puck alot and is average on the defensive end.
Yes, I'm sure I'm the one who created the love for Jake, yet I'm pretty sure most liked him before this off-season. I was wrong when I said he could score 80 points this season, because in order to score 80 he is going to have to start hitting the net. I was WRONG. It happens, actually I am going to concede that I was wrong, but I'm not so sure that I ever stated that he will score 80 points this year, I said he could, and that he could be as good as Nash within two years, and I still stand by the as good as Nash within two years point. Jake isn't hitting the net, but I think he eventually will. He isn't going to get traded, he is our one young player who looks like he could be a force in this league, if Howson has resigned the likes of Brassard, Dorsett, Russell, and Mason there is no doubt in my mind he isn't going to let Jake go, unless it's for a nice upgrade, which Spezza really isn't.


Honestly you of all people are going to call out others for player evaluations?

Look for as aggravating as Jake has been at times, he is still on pace to eclipse his point total last season, even though it's at a slight increase, and I don't think it's crazy to think that he will play better in the second half and easily score 60 maybe even 65 points. Unfortunately, Jake's production, because he doesn't score goals often, is to tied into Rick Nash's streaks.


Last edited by Doug19: 01-17-2011 at 03:58 PM.
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Old
01-17-2011, 03:53 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
And do you think we need a often injured center who can be injured when we will need him more? Center who take 7 millions and have not achievments for seven millions? Crosby`s salary is 8,7 millions. Only 1,7 millions more than Spezza who does not know play in the key situations. Sorrz no. Too much prize for him. I would not be too happy but I would understand Filly`s trade for Richards but not for overrated Spezza.
I am not crazy I am realist but you imagine trades as:

Theoretically, Nash could cover for Spezza's gaffes and still play effectively.

That said, the needs are greater on the blueline, and I'd rather those get addressed, rather than chasing after lightning in a bottle from six years ago for a team in a less talented league.

Nash "needs a center". Crosby "needs a winger". How long did Nash stay on Crosby's line in the Olympics, again?

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Old
01-17-2011, 03:56 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Theoretically, Nash could cover for Spezza's gaffes and still play effectively.

That said, the needs are greater on the blueline, and I'd rather those get addressed, rather than chasing after lightning in a bottle from six years ago for a team in a less talented league.

Nash "needs a center". Crosby "needs a winger". How long did Nash stay on Crosby's line in the Olympics, again?



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01-17-2011, 04:28 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
The love affair with Jake never made sense. It started with DougRiffle mentioned in every thread that he was going to be an 80 point player this year, then everyone kind of latched on to that idea. But the only way he scores 80 is if he gets about 70 assists, and that's never going to happen, at least not on this team. He is what he is, a 50-60 point winger who turns over the puck alot and is average on the defensive end.
As I see it, the love affair with Jake is because he is one of the few players who night in and night out goes 100%. Although the same can be said for Umberger, I just don't get the hero worship on these boards for him. Heart and soul... whatever. If RJ in trade gets us what we need, DO IT.

Fans will have their favorites, and as such these discussions get personal. Many people see RJ as the passionate/vocal leader of the team and in their minds untouchable. I feel strongly that Jake plays with a passion few match and his potential may be greater in the long run that of Umberger. I'd rather watch Jake than anyone other than Nash, but that's just me.

... and we all know how mt svk feels about Nikita, Cougar feels about Rusty, etc... Fans have favorites. It's not all cold, calculating and rational. So what?

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01-17-2011, 04:37 PM
  #63
pete goegan
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Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
The love affair with Jake never made sense. It started with DougRiffle mentioned in every thread that he was going to be an 80 point player this year, then everyone kind of latched on to that idea. But the only way he scores 80 is if he gets about 70 assists, and that's never going to happen, at least not on this team. He is what he is, a 50-60 point winger who turns over the puck alot and is average on the defensive end.
No, I believe it started with Macster calling for his selection at the draft. I have more confidence in his evaluation of talent than I do of most around here. I still have hope that Jake will come around, I'm less confident about Brassard. I don't know that I'd want to move both of them in the same deal, even for a player like Spezza (though we sure could use him!).

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Old
01-17-2011, 04:56 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Derby View Post
As I see it, the love affair with Jake is because he is one of the few players who night in and night out goes 100%. Although the same can be said for Umberger, I just don't get the hero worship on these boards for him. Heart and soul... whatever. If RJ in trade gets us what we need, DO IT.

Fans will have their favorites, and as such these discussions get personal. Many people see RJ as the passionate/vocal leader of the team and in their minds untouchable. I feel strongly that Jake plays with a passion few match and his potential may be greater in the long run that of Umberger. I'd rather watch Jake than anyone other than Nash, but that's just me.

... and we all know how mt svk feels about Nikita, Cougar feels about Rusty, etc... Fans have favorites. It's not all cold, calculating and rational. So what?
LOL Actually my pet is Boller I just get sucked into the Klesla debate cause I DON'T think he sucks.

I enjoy your posts Derby. Got a soft spot for Jakub too.

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Old
01-17-2011, 04:59 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby View Post
As I see it, the love affair with Jake is because he is one of the few players who night in and night out goes 100%. Although the same can be said for Umberger, I just don't get the hero worship on these boards for him. Heart and soul... whatever. If RJ in trade gets us what we need, DO IT.

Fans will have their favorites, and as such these discussions get personal. Many people see RJ as the passionate/vocal leader of the team and in their minds untouchable. I feel strongly that Jake plays with a passion few match and his potential may be greater in the long run that of Umberger. I'd rather watch Jake than anyone other than Nash, but that's just me.

... and we all know how mt svk feels about Nikita, Cougar feels about Rusty, etc... Fans have favorites. It's not all cold, calculating and rational. So what?
That's fine, nothing wrong with liking a player. Believe me, I have irrational love for some non-Jacket players like Andrei Kostitsyn and Nazem Kadri.
And I do like Jake, I just wish he would put up some more points.

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01-17-2011, 05:04 PM
  #66
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doubt it.
Such brilliant analysis of this issue.

We have been down this path before. Our savior's had names like Brule, Brassard, Russell, Filatov, Voracek, etc. Just as people are excited this year about the crop of defensemen in Springfield, a few years ago it was the forwards in Syracuse. We've seen the results. As is always the case, they have been mixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
By the way, I don't see Spezza as that difference maker.
This statement seems to be a perfect example of what Voltaire meant when he referred to the perfect being the enemy of the good.

Some fans seem to have a view, which seems to be shared by our GM, that we should wait around for some "perfect" magic bullet move. They want a number 1 center...but they want him for less than the market price for one...and they don't want to have to give anything of value up to get him...and he has to be not just a #1 center, but a superstar who put up 80-100 points in the most recent season...and he must not have had an injury in the past 48 months, etc., etc.

At some point the pool for potential acquisitions is so limited that there are none that are actually acquirable.

The only relevant questions are, would Jason Spezza be a significant upgrade over our current centers and what is his cost?

If his cost is Brassard plus Voracek, his real cost is about $1 million in cap space, plus a top 6 forward.

If people really are high on our forward prospects, then Voracek should be a no brainer to sacrifice. There isn't room in the top 6 (in which Nash will be a permanent fixture) for all of Voracek, Filatov, Huselius, Umberger, Calvert, and Kubalik. Beyond that, Voracek is shaping up, in my view, as a 25 goal/65 point player at best. And, with those kind of numbers as a wing, he's easily replaceable through free agency. As we've gone over and over, #1 centers are not easily acquired as free agents. And Spezza, after the next 2 seasons, becomes a deal with his declining contract.

If Spezza isn't "the answer", tell me who is that is even arguably available (i.e. not Evgeni Malkin)?


Last edited by CapnCornelius: 01-17-2011 at 05:14 PM.
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01-17-2011, 05:11 PM
  #67
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agreed capn...i wish we would have done it over the last off season

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01-17-2011, 05:13 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by wilfred View Post
Ottawa fan back again

I would do:
Brassard
Voracek

or

Johansen
Filatov
salary dump

or

Brassard
Filatov
1st

Commodore use to be on the Sens but I don't think they left on good terms
Ottawa also doesn't like Russian prospect, a couple of bad experiences.

Ottawa could offer a PMD to sweeten the pot
Karlsson= almost untouchable
Gonchar= just signed and he has a no trade clause could be had though
Kuba= yours if you want him
Campoli= would be the most likely IMO The Sens kinda forced him into a stay at home d-man but he would be a good #4 and can play the power play
I would do the last one if you changed the first to a 2nd. I wouldn't do the other 2.

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01-17-2011, 05:20 PM
  #69
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Can't we trade Huselius?

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01-17-2011, 05:37 PM
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Can't we trade Huselius?
With Ottawa looking more and more like a rebuilding team? Probably not. They are going to want younger guys to build around, not a veteran like Juice with a year left on his deal.

If you mean, generally speaking, Juice probably will have some value starting with this off-season since he'll only have a year left on his contract. If we are stuck in this situation again next year at the deadline, he'll most certainly be dealt for a pick/prospect.

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01-17-2011, 05:44 PM
  #71
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Coug I actually like Huselius on the line with Spezza. But that being said, not opposed to moving him. He has a heavier contract but it is short time.

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01-17-2011, 05:51 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Such brilliant analysis of this issue.

We have been down this path before. Our savior's had names like Brule, Brassard, Russell, Filatov, Voracek, etc. Just as people are excited this year about the crop of defensemen in Springfield, a few years ago it was the forwards in Syracuse. We've seen the results. As is always the case, they have been mixed.



This statement seems to be a perfect example of what Voltaire meant when he referred to the perfect being the enemy of the good.

Some fans seem to have a view, which seems to be shared by our GM, that we should wait around for some "perfect" magic bullet move. They want a number 1 center...but they want him for less than the market price for one...and they don't want to have to give anything of value up to get him...and he has to be not just a #1 center, but a superstar who put up 80-100 points in the most recent season...and he must not have had an injury in the past 48 months, etc., etc.

At some point the pool for potential acquisitions is so limited that there are none that are actually acquirable.

The only relevant questions are, would Jason Spezza be a significant upgrade over our current centers and what is his cost?

If his cost is Brassard plus Voracek, his real cost is about $1 million in cap space, plus a top 6 forward.

If people really are high on our forward prospects, then Voracek should be a no brainer to sacrifice. There isn't room in the top 6 (in which Nash will be a permanent fixture) for all of Voracek, Filatov, Huselius, Umberger, Calvert, and Kubalik. Beyond that, Voracek is shaping up, in my view, as a 25 goal/65 point player at best. And, with those kind of numbers as a wing, he's easily replaceable through free agency. As we've gone over and over, #1 centers are not easily acquired as free agents. And Spezza, after the next 2 seasons, becomes a deal with his declining contract.

If Spezza isn't "the answer", tell me who is that is even arguably available (i.e. not Evgeni Malkin)?
you are probably right, I can't argue that history shows you are correct.'


As to the second bold, we are talking about Spezza, but why can't we talk about Malkin? There has been no indication that Spezza is available, so I don't see why we can rule out Malkin because of that same aspect. Obviously we aren't going to get Malkin, but we aren't going to get Spezza either.

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01-17-2011, 06:24 PM
  #73
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As to the second bold, we are talking about Spezza, but why can't we talk about Malkin? There has been no indication that Spezza is available, so I don't see why we can rule out Malkin because of that same aspect. Obviously we aren't going to get Malkin, but we aren't going to get Spezza either.
The Pens are a championship contender. The Senators need to rebuild. Spezza was rumored last off-season to have wanted out of Ottawa.

I think the odds of acquiring Spezza are exponentially higher than acquiring Malkin.

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01-17-2011, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
With Ottawa looking more and more like a rebuilding team? Probably not. They are going to want younger guys to build around, not a veteran like Juice with a year left on his deal.

If you mean, generally speaking, Juice probably will have some value starting with this off-season since he'll only have a year left on his contract. If we are stuck in this situation again next year at the deadline, he'll most certainly be dealt for a pick/prospect.
Thank you. Ok, I got it.

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01-17-2011, 06:27 PM
  #75
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Coug I actually like Huselius on the line with Spezza. But that being said, not opposed to moving him. He has a heavier contract but it is short time.
Really? I admit I don't know much about Spezza other than what I read here. Well, if it helps production, I guess I will defer to smarter minds. Go get him. But don't trade anyone I like.

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