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Emelin's requirements to come in NA

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Old
01-17-2011, 03:42 PM
  #126
Habs10Habs
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I see your point No Team Needed, but look at it this way. Say we bring a UFA player to training camp on a try out basis. For that player to make the roster, they would have to earn it. They are not handed a position, and neither would Emelin.

If he was requesting a guaranteed spot, then I would tell him to piss off. In this case though, I'd have no problem if the Habs did this. He'd still be battling Nash, Festerling and Carle...etc. The only difference is it will be at the Habs training camp, instead of in Hamilton.

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01-17-2011, 03:48 PM
  #127
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I'd give him the clause. We have nothing to loose on him anymore I feel.

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01-17-2011, 03:56 PM
  #128
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Let's see...

We have a 24 year old, 6'1, 223 lbs, who plays with a mean streak and has played two WC already for Russia. He also has started to produce offensively lately.

Yeah, screw that clause...

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01-17-2011, 04:07 PM
  #129
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I have a major problem with that clause. it's an exit clause. Any player who isn't that commited to come to play and compete for a position shouldn't be invited to camp, period. It sets a terrible example and puts Emelin on a higher level then guys who have been busting the @ss trying to make the team and have the same fear of being sent down as repercussion of playing poorly. What Emelin wants is a half assed chance to make the team, if it's not as easy as he thinks it is then he'll go back to Russia for good. Meanwhile, it's a smack to the face of EVER other player on the team. If Emelin needs more time to learn the North American style and the team sees him as a liability to the Habs then they won't even be able to develop him properly as he'll bolt to the KHL once he's demoted.

Even the vets who have earned such a clause don't have one and wouldn't ask for one. Any team should have the ability to send a player down for whatever reason they want. So why would the Habs change a policy that every other player in the NHL abides by for a player who has proven absolutlely nothing in the NHL?

If Emelin really wants to play in the one and only best league in the world, then he should have the same contract as any of the other players in that league. Ovy or Malkin didn't ask for that ridiculous clause and they had much more of a reason to ask for it. Who the hell does Emelin think he is.

For anyone who gets all hot and bothered over Emelin coming over all I can say is keep in mind the KHL and NHL are two very different leagues and success in one doesn't mean success in the other. For all we know Emelin would be a pilon and take non stop bad penalties. As much as I'd like to find out, I for one would not be willing to give him the clause and find out.

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01-17-2011, 05:26 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I have a major problem with that clause. it's an exit clause. Any player who isn't that commited to come to play and compete for a position shouldn't be invited to camp, period. It sets a terrible example and puts Emelin on a higher level then guys who have been busting the @ss trying to make the team and have the same fear of being sent down as repercussion of playing poorly. What Emelin wants is a half assed chance to make the team, if it's not as easy as he thinks it is then he'll go back to Russia for good. Meanwhile, it's a smack to the face of EVER other player on the team. If Emelin needs more time to learn the North American style and the team sees him as a liability to the Habs then they won't even be able to develop him properly as he'll bolt to the KHL once he's demoted.

Even the vets who have earned such a clause don't have one and wouldn't ask for one. Any team should have the ability to send a player down for whatever reason they want. So why would the Habs change a policy that every other player in the NHL abides by for a player who has proven absolutlely nothing in the NHL?

If Emelin really wants to play in the one and only best league in the world, then he should have the same contract as any of the other players in that league. Ovy or Malkin didn't ask for that ridiculous clause and they had much more of a reason to ask for it. Who the hell does Emelin think he is.

For anyone who gets all hot and bothered over Emelin coming over all I can say is keep in mind the KHL and NHL are two very different leagues and success in one doesn't mean success in the other. For all we know Emelin would be a pilon and take non stop bad penalties. As much as I'd like to find out, I for one would not be willing to give him the clause and find out.
I completely disagree.

You're right the KHL and NHL are different leagues, but so are the AHL and KHL.

Emelin is not looking for a half ass chance. He is enjoying his life in Russia, playing in the KHL and being regarded as one of the better Dmen throughout the league.
The idea of playing a full year in the AHL to adapt is simply not appealing to him, and quite frankly, I fully understand his view.
Not only is the league simply inferior, but as I previously stated, he would leave behind million of dollars, his family, friends, city he knows, fame and life, only to come here and play in some dead hole vs weaker opponents, making less money and riding buses to games. That's the issue here, it has nothing to do with wanting a half ass chance or wanting to be placed on a higher plater.

The guy has his life in Russia and it's going well. He's not a junior player trying to follow the usual NA footsteps of making it to the NHL. If we want to bring him here, we have to lure him in. If all it takes is for him to have an exit clause in case management wants to send him down for a long time, so be it.
I don't think he would mind going through a little conditioning/adaptation phase in the AHL.

And to be honest, he is on a higher level than other guys that have busted their ***** in juniors. He's 24 and having good success in the KHL.

The risk/reward is extremely favorable. We risk nothing but gain with this move. If it doesn't work, he goes back to Russia and so, no cap hit, no nothing. It works, we have a very strong, solid and aggressive Dman.

There is absolutely no bad message being sent.

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01-17-2011, 05:28 PM
  #131
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I think I'd normally dislike the idea of giving a player a clause like that (or even a no trade clause) but given that he's done well in Russia and is already 24, I say whatever... give it to him and bring him over. If he slides right in, perfect! If not, press box him until he can fit the squad (It's not Hamilton suckaaa!) or trade the guy to a team where he might work out for a conditional pick. I don't really see why there's even an issue... he has promise - you'll never know what he can do if you don't give him a shot.








(Although, he'll have to deal with Jacques Martin ; the youth killer and prospect slayer)

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01-17-2011, 05:36 PM
  #132
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Ill start by saying that i liked what i have seen from him when he played in the russian team. So if to have him we have to accept his conditions then it's a gamble that is low risk in my opinion. A good chunk of our defensemen is old and the ones in our system in NA still need time to develop.

The issue i think here is that he gets this deal then maybe every other player (not just russians) might opt to request simular contract structure.

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01-17-2011, 05:53 PM
  #133
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I wonder if he'd be willing to accept a 1 way deal?

If not, then he's clearly not after the money... It's the level of hockey. I take it that he's a very competitive person and isn't ready to play in a 3rd tier league. He wants to prove that he's able to keep up with the best, and I don't blame him. He's old enough and wants to make his mark.

He seems ready (from what I've seen). Maybe a few minor things to work over, but will the coaches be willing to work with him and not just give up at the first sign of a negative?

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01-17-2011, 06:09 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Habs10Habs View Post
If he was requesting a guaranteed spot, then I would tell him to piss off. In this case though, I'd have no problem if the Habs did this. He'd still be battling Nash, Festerling and Carle...etc. The only difference is it will be at the Habs training camp, instead of in Hamilton.
Here's the problem, as I keep saying.

He comes to camp. He's taking up a spot from the camp. He works for a spot with everyone else. If any other player doesn't make the club, they goto the AHL where they work hard, get better and hope to get a call up through great play or an injury. But Emelin? Martin and Gauthier have pressure to keep him up with the main club even if he's not the best player because if he doesn't make the team, he doesn't goto the AHL. He doesn't do what any other player would, yes, even players at 24 years old. No, he goes back to Russia. And they lose him for the rest of the season. He might need 20-40 games in Hamilton to adjust to the game, maybe even a whole season before he plays at the level he did in the KHL. And instead of that natural growth... there is this new pressure to keep him in the NHL or you lose him completely.

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01-17-2011, 06:32 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
He comes to camp. He's taking up a spot from the camp. He works for a spot with everyone else. If any other player doesn't make the club, they goto the AHL where they work hard, get better and hope to get a call up through great play or an injury.
But this is not true.

Even if Jaro Spacek has a terribad camp next year he'll likely start the year with the Habs. What you say is true for young rookies. Emelin wants to be considered like a free agent.

He's well established in Russia, he will play 20+ minutes there on any team and will travel with planes, stay in nice hotels ect. He doesn't want to end up rotting in the minors because he was just a depth signing for the Habs brass. Say the Habs sign a couple of free agents on one way contract and has 7 NHL defensemen on one way contracts Emelin has basically 0 chance to make the team out of camp unless he completely blows competition away and force a trade, which is unfair to ask because it rarely happens, and only does if one of the established players is very out of shape.

His camp will be as important as anyone as it will decide whether he'll actually play and on which pairing or stay on the press box. Someone mentionned Mark Streit in this thread, he's a great comparison to Emelin in that he was probably guaranteed a spot on the team. Streit was bad in his first year.

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01-17-2011, 07:24 PM
  #136
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Everything that could be said of Emelin would also apply to Korneyev...

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01-17-2011, 09:53 PM
  #137
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Everything that could be said of Emelin would also apply to Korneyev...
Actually, the Habs have enough offensive Dmen.

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01-17-2011, 09:57 PM
  #138
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I'd absolutely be down for this.

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01-17-2011, 10:14 PM
  #139
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This may have already been brought up, but if the Habs bring him in with the clause he wants, if he gets demoted and splits for Russia, does his contract still count against the 50 contract limit?

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01-18-2011, 12:52 AM
  #140
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Give him the clause. The fact that the Habs have signed Spacegoat, and other free agent dmen over the past few years means that the guys in the AHL busting their butts are well, just not that good.

There is ZERO risk. ZERO!! He comes. Smokes a couple of people in pre-season and makes the team. He's not a 18 year old kid that was drafted in the 1st round and AUTOMATICALLY given a spot on the 1st team roster. I and anyone else can name many players in that situation (ahem Crosby, Ovechkin, Hall, Eberle, Doughty, Iginla, etc). How dp you think players on their respective teams feel that these guys jumped to #1 spot on the roster without even playing a single PROFESSIONAL game??

Sorry but I've seen a few games and Emelin is worth the zero risk of losing him (which won't happen, cuz he's not going to leave at the 1st demotion to th AHL).

Ps any European born player is at risk of going to the KHL seeing how it costs peanuts to travel between countries.

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01-18-2011, 02:06 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I completely disagree.

You're right the KHL and NHL are different leagues, but so are the AHL and KHL.

Emelin is not looking for a half ass chance. He is enjoying his life in Russia, playing in the KHL and being regarded as one of the better Dmen throughout the league.
The idea of playing a full year in the AHL to adapt is simply not appealing to him, and quite frankly, I fully understand his view.
Not only is the league simply inferior, but as I previously stated, he would leave behind million of dollars, his family, friends, city he knows, fame and life, only to come here and play in some dead hole vs weaker opponents, making less money and riding buses to games. That's the issue here, it has nothing to do with wanting a half ass chance or wanting to be placed on a higher plater.

The guy has his life in Russia and it's going well. He's not a junior player trying to follow the usual NA footsteps of making it to the NHL. If we want to bring him here, we have to lure him in. If all it takes is for him to have an exit clause in case management wants to send him down for a long time, so be it.
I don't think he would mind going through a little conditioning/adaptation phase in the AHL.

And to be honest, he is on a higher level than other guys that have busted their ***** in juniors. He's 24 and having good success in the KHL.

The risk/reward is extremely favorable. We risk nothing but gain with this move. If it doesn't work, he goes back to Russia and so, no cap hit, no nothing. It works, we have a very strong, solid and aggressive Dman.

There is absolutely no bad message being sent.
I pretty much agree.

I also don't understand why he should be seen as not very loyal. He is not bolting mid-contract from his current team, like Malkin did. To whom should he owe the loyalty being demanded? I would suppose Montreal, if he makes the team. From how he has treated his commitment in Russia, I don't see why he would not be loyal to Montreal if he had a contract here.

What I understand from his comments is that his exit clause is not from Montreal, it is from Hamilton. I am pretty sure it is also not intended to be used to veto a short stint in Hamilton at the beginning of the year to get ready for our size rinks, but only in case the team wants him to "pursue his development". He would rather pursue his development in the KHL and I have no problem with that. I am not a fan of the AHL, I am a fan of my NHL team. Emelin has developed pretty well in the KHL so far, now let's see if he is ready for the next step.

Whatever happens, he WILL be on a 2-way contract with a maximum AHL salary of $105,000 for at least a year so there is no precedent being set as to any "guaranteed spot" in Montreal. Nor is the contract a reason to keep him here if he is not ready. His cap hit will NOT be on the books if we "send him down" to Russia instead of Hamilton.

I see little risk in telling Emelin that he does not have to worry about a lengthy stay in Hamilton.

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01-18-2011, 02:43 AM
  #142
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I see your point No Team Needed, but look at it this way. Say we bring a UFA player to training camp on a try out basis. For that player to make the roster, they would have to earn it. They are not handed a position, and neither would Emelin.

If he was requesting a guaranteed spot, then I would tell him to piss off. In this case though, I'd have no problem if the Habs did this. He'd still be battling Nash, Festerling and Carle...etc. The only difference is it will be at the Habs training camp, instead of in Hamilton.
I guess you haven't seen much of Emelin. From what I saw of him several years ago I'd say he could make the team from Day 1. He might not be on the first D pairing but he would at least dump Picard.

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01-18-2011, 06:33 AM
  #143
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I completely disagree.

You're right the KHL and NHL are different leagues, but so are the AHL and KHL.

Emelin is not looking for a half ass chance. He is enjoying his life in Russia, playing in the KHL and being regarded as one of the better Dmen throughout the league.
The idea of playing a full year in the AHL to adapt is simply not appealing to him, and quite frankly, I fully understand his view.
Not only is the league simply inferior, but as I previously stated, he would leave behind million of dollars, his family, friends, city he knows, fame and life, only to come here and play in some dead hole vs weaker opponents, making less money and riding buses to games. That's the issue here, it has nothing to do with wanting a half ass chance or wanting to be placed on a higher plater.

The guy has his life in Russia and it's going well. He's not a junior player trying to follow the usual NA footsteps of making it to the NHL. If we want to bring him here, we have to lure him in. If all it takes is for him to have an exit clause in case management wants to send him down for a long time, so be it.
I don't think he would mind going through a little conditioning/adaptation phase in the AHL.

And to be honest, he is on a higher level than other guys that have busted their ***** in juniors. He's 24 and having good success in the KHL.

The risk/reward is extremely favorable. We risk nothing but gain with this move. If it doesn't work, he goes back to Russia and so, no cap hit, no nothing. It works, we have a very strong, solid and aggressive Dman.

There is absolutely no bad message being sent.
I never implied that the AHL was better than the KHL but simply said both were inferior to the NHL. Frankly how the KHL competes with the AHL on a competitive basis is up for debate in any case.

You're proving my point by making that statement that he has a good life in Russia already and has no real desire to come to NA and play in the best league in the world. Malkin, Ovy, Kovy etc. turned down contracts much larger then what they're playing for now to play in NA for a reason. They didn't ask for exit clauses because they knew they were good enough to play here wanted to play in the NHL. If Emelins life is so great and he's not interested in testing himself against better competition or not confident then he shouldn't come. Him asking for that ridiculous clause isna scapegoat to hide the fact that he doesn't think he's either good enough or motivated enough to play in the NHL. Why should the Habs accommodate him with their time, money, roster spot that could to a player who wants to be there and nowhere else.

Enroll is no more special than any other player and regardless if his play in the K, it does not indicate how he'll play against MUCH better and faster competition. He can stay in Russia and dominate at a much lower level and be around his family and friends. For a guy who most people have never seen play he's made out to be the end all that the Habs are missing. I for one am not interested in another Valentenko and unless he drops that ridiculous clause, he can stay and dwindle in Russia and hope he still gets paid on a regular basis.

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01-18-2011, 07:20 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I completely disagree.

You're right the KHL and NHL are different leagues, but so are the AHL and KHL.

Emelin is not looking for a half ass chance. He is enjoying his life in Russia, playing in the KHL and being regarded as one of the better Dmen throughout the league.
The idea of playing a full year in the AHL to adapt is simply not appealing to him, and quite frankly, I fully understand his view.
Not only is the league simply inferior, but as I previously stated, he would leave behind million of dollars, his family, friends, city he knows, fame and life, only to come here and play in some dead hole vs weaker opponents, making less money and riding buses to games. That's the issue here, it has nothing to do with wanting a half ass chance or wanting to be placed on a higher plater.

The guy has his life in Russia and it's going well. He's not a junior player trying to follow the usual NA footsteps of making it to the NHL. If we want to bring him here, we have to lure him in. If all it takes is for him to have an exit clause in case management wants to send him down for a long time, so be it.
I don't think he would mind going through a little conditioning/adaptation phase in the AHL.

And to be honest, he is on a higher level than other guys that have busted their ***** in juniors. He's 24 and having good success in the KHL.

The risk/reward is extremely favorable. We risk nothing but gain with this move. If it doesn't work, he goes back to Russia and so, no cap hit, no nothing. It works, we have a very strong, solid and aggressive Dman.

There is absolutely no bad message being sent.
I agree 100%. You can't blame the guy for not wanting to waste a year AHL playing for 100k when he can be making millions in the KHL and being with his family. I see nothing wrong with letting him go home if he can't crack the roster. I can see the Habs using him a bit sparingly at first if he needs more adjustment time(as #5-6-7 at first) and then eventualloy a top 4 guy. From everything I have heard and seen from him he should be a top 4 guy after an initial adjustment period.

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01-18-2011, 09:51 AM
  #145
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I'm slowly starting to side with those who would add the clause. But why exactly has management not accommodated him in that respect or will they once he seems like a sure thing?

Bahhhhh..........I'm still having trouble with the idea.

For those that have seen him play and with the D roster the Habs have today - where would he fit in on the depth chart?


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01-18-2011, 10:19 AM
  #146
shutehinside
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For a player who has never played at the level of competition of the NHL or on smaller ice surface, I for one find it very difficult to see how a player who's obviously not comfortable in NA will be able to succeed without having a significant learning curve.

What's the point of having him come to camp and maybe not be good enough to break the roster yet but needs some seasoning in the AHL to get used to the North American style. So you tell him to spend 10-20 games in Hamilton and he says "yeah, maybe not. I prefer Mother Russia." At that point the fan base who for whatever reason belives he's the next coming of Robinson hate on the Habs management and call for his head for not playing him in the NHL when he's probably not ready for it. Why bother and why should the Habs assume the risk? It should be the number one priority for ANY player in the world to want to play in the premier leaugue in the worls against the best competition. Why would the Habs balk and give into a player who has proven absolutely nothing just because the fans are curious? I don't get why there's even an arguement here. If he's good enough to play in the NHL then he'll play. If he needs time to adapt and develop than the Habs should be in charge of that, not the player.

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01-18-2011, 10:24 AM
  #147
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Watching that video that's a lot of offensive skill for a stay at home defensive defenseman!

Having said that, I'm on the fence about this but I have to lean towards Shuteinside on this one.

When players start dictating the way it's going to go down to teams I tend to worry a little, for a number of reasons.

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01-18-2011, 10:36 AM
  #148
Kriss E
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I never implied that the AHL was better than the KHL but simply said both were inferior to the NHL. Frankly how the KHL competes with the AHL on a competitive basis is up for debate in any case.

You're proving my point by making that statement that he has a good life in Russia already and has no real desire to come to NA and play in the best league in the world. Malkin, Ovy, Kovy etc. turned down contracts much larger then what they're playing for now to play in NA for a reason. They didn't ask for exit clauses because they knew they were good enough to play here wanted to play in the NHL. If Emelins life is so great and he's not interested in testing himself against better competition or not confident then he shouldn't come. Him asking for that ridiculous clause isna scapegoat to hide the fact that he doesn't think he's either good enough or motivated enough to play in the NHL. Why should the Habs accommodate him with their time, money, roster spot that could to a player who wants to be there and nowhere else.

Enroll is no more special than any other player and regardless if his play in the K, it does not indicate how he'll play against MUCH better and faster competition. He can stay in Russia and dominate at a much lower level and be around his family and friends. For a guy who most people have never seen play he's made out to be the end all that the Habs are missing. I for one am not interested in another Valentenko and unless he drops that ridiculous clause, he can stay and dwindle in Russia and hope he still gets paid on a regular basis.
I really don't understand your point.
He's not saying no to the NHL, he's saying he doesn't want to go through a long development process in the AHL. Seriously, you're making this into something much bigger.
Malkin was lured here by the Pens. You think he would have bolted mid-contract if he had to go through a year in the AHL???..Not a freaking chance.
Emelin isn't a superstar, but he has every right not to want to go through months of AHL playing.

Bring the ego down and just tell me what we would lose from giving the guy this clause?..it doesn't send a bad message at all. If players want to go play in the KHL, they can very well do it. I don't see why a Louis Leblanc would pack his things and decide to go play in Russia though. Emelin is from there, if he was born in Canada, he wouldn't be in the KHL.
So, again, what would we lose??...If it works, then we have a good Dman, if it doesn't he moves back to Russia and his contract is off the books.

I really don't understand why anybody would be against this.

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01-18-2011, 10:39 AM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
When players start dictating the way it's going to go down to teams I tend to worry a little, for a number of reasons.
How exactly is he dictating how it's going to go down??..
It doesn't say he wants a guaranteed roster spot. It's pretty much like an invite to camp..
Come out to camp, perform, if we judge you're good enough to remain in the top 6, then we sign you, if you're not then you go back home...

What is there to worry about??? Seriously???

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01-18-2011, 10:46 AM
  #150
Jigger77
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
How exactly is he dictating how it's going to go down??..
It doesn't say he wants a guaranteed roster spot. It's pretty much like an invite to camp..
Come out to camp, perform, if we judge you're good enough to remain in the top 6, then we sign you, if you're not then you go back home...

What is there to worry about??? Seriously???
Yeah maybe I'm not reading it right I don't know.

I just tend to like the players who jump on the occasion to play in the NHL and will do anything to get there. He seems unsure about it or something. I don't know it just bothers me a little that he'd ask for that. But in a way I can understand it too. Like I said I'm sort of on the fence about the issue.

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