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Well-intentioned seasoned GMs bickering about the rules

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Old
01-07-2011, 09:18 PM
  #1
VanIslander
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Well-intentioned seasoned GMs bickering about the rules

With 40 teams, we of course won't have just four divisions because that would mean 10 per division. The easiest for playoff matchups would be to have 8 divisions of 5 teams each. The 4th and 5th ranked team in each division would play a quick home-and-away series to determine the final playoff spot and then each division has two playoff rounds, resulting in 8 divisional champions and then three more rounds.

Red Fisher Conference

Jim Robson division
Foster Hewitt division
__________ division
__________ division

Jim Coleman Conference

Bob Cole division
Rene Lecavalier division
__________ division
__________ division

What divisional names do you suggest? Names of historically important figures in the game who are NOT draft picks (e.g., owners, referees, journalists, builders, etc).

Let's make a list of candidates in the next week or so and then we could vote on them when we submit our list of 5 preferred draft positions after the sign-up deadline of Jan 19th (or after we hit 40 teams).

Thomas D. Green division
William Northey division
Louis Magnus division
Marcus Vinnerborg division
Ron MacLean division
.
.
.


Last edited by VanIslander: 01-08-2011 at 01:33 AM.
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01-07-2011, 09:25 PM
  #2
hungryhungryhippy
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
MrBugg, it'd be better to have only one Vancouver per division for reference's sake (than to have all three in the same division) but geographical divisions makes knowing your divisional rivals so easy!!

Whatever way the divisions are constituted, we will have a carefully ordered roster thread, with each team per division posting their roster post before the next division starts (like last year's draft, very orderly, easy to see rivals).

Some GMs have already stated they don't want certain teams in their division any more, so we could accommodate the wish one of two ways:

1. EACH TEAM COULD SUBMIT A LIST OF TEAMS THEY DON'T WANT IN THEIR DIVISION (ALONG WITH A SHORTLIST OF DESIRED RIVALS).

or

2. EACH TEAM CAN CHOOSE WHICH DIVISION TO BE A PART OF.

The 2nd way seems the easiest and best. Each team simply states which division they want to join when they make their 1st round pick (there will be no trading of 1st round picks allowed because we are submitting ranking, choosing our 1st round pick positions). After the end of the 1st round, each team has until the end of the 2nd round to change divisions if they so desire (if other teams joined theirs after they did and they don't like the resulting mix) and no team can follow another team to the same new division. Then, by the end of the 2nd round, all teams will be locked into a division of their choosing.

Each team choosing its draft position, and then choosing which division one wants to be in... it's good to have choices.

whaaaat... objection!

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01-07-2011, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by hungryhungryhippy View Post
whaaaat... objection!
I can see some of the logic, but if we are going to allow trades in the draft, I agree. Someone might have a guy they target when they elect a pick taken and not see anyone else that catches interest, and we're not all going to get what we want with picks, because a lot of people are going to want the same ones most likely.

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01-07-2011, 09:33 PM
  #4
VanIslander
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Thomas D. Green division

Thomas Daniel Green, in 1886, became the first president of the Amateur Hockey Association of Canada, considered the first organized ice hockey league.



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Thomas Daniel Green packed his life with firsts: first president of the world's first hockey league, first aboriginal accredited as a land surveyor in Canada, possibly the first native to graduate with honours from a Canadian university.

But there was one barrier that the Mohawk Indian, also a star with Ottawa's first hockey team in the 1880s, was unable to break through: the discrimination that kept aboriginals from acquiring full-time work with the Dominion government in the late 19th century.

Not even a personal recommendation from the prime minister of the day, Sir John A. Macdonald, could provide the muscle required to get Green permanent work as a government surveyor.

Green's long-forgotten story has been unearthed by Paul Kitchen, an Ottawa hockey historian whose exhaustive book on the Ottawa Hockey Club -- the team that became the original Senators -- will be published later this year by Penumbra Press.

That team, featuring Green as a star recruit from Montreal's McGill College, took to the ice for the first time on March 5, 1883 -- 125 years ago next week -- an anniversary to be marked in tomorrow's Citizen and on the paper's website.

Mr. Kitchen considers Green's story nothing short of a tragedy.

"He was obviously an impressive guy," he says. "His teammates elected him to be their representative in Montreal at the founding of the world's first hockey league. And those guys were so impressed, they made him president almost right off the bat."

At the same time, according to government correspondence uncovered by Mr. Kitchen, there was a systematic effort to keep him off the public payroll.

"The excuses they used were pretty far-fetched," he says. "There was never a vacancy, there were always other clerks who were more deserving, there were remarks that he was a poor draughtsman or not a very good surveyor. There's absolutely no question his native roots held him back."

All the while Green struggled against discrimination in official Ottawa, he was treated with respect and admiration in the hockey world. He performed well on the ice, was elected Ottawa team captain and in 1886 was sent as the club's representative to the founding meeting of the Amateur Hockey Association of Canada, a forerunner to the National Hockey League.

"He must have found it a great relief to be appreciated for his intelligence and accomplishments," says Mr. Kitchen, whose book Win, Tie or Wrangle: The Inside Story of the Old Ottawa Senators (1883-1935), comes out in December.

While the Ottawa period of Green's life is fairly well known, the details of his early years and the time he spent later in the northwest are a bit sketchier.

In the late 19th century, it was still unusual for an aboriginal to attend university, but Green's childhood near Brantford, Ont. seems to have been anything but typical.

His grandfather was Peter Green, a white man of Dutch descent who came to Ontario from Wisconsin as a 17-year-old. He soon married an aboriginal woman in her mid-30s, one of the "chief-maker" clan of women who made the teenaged Green a chief.

With that came 600 acres of land, which Green kept separate from the lands that were eventually gathered up to make the Six Nations Reserve in the 1840s.

"He had the foresight to separate our family lands ... and that helped to set us on the path toward prosperity while still maintaining our native heritage," says Floyd Doctor, Thomas Green's great-nephew who still lives on a piece of that land.

Not living on the reserve meant young Thomas Green was allowed to go to regular public schools in Brantford, rather than the infamous Mohawk Institute residential school reserve children were forced to attend.

He had the highest marks at his elementary school and was among the top students at his high school, from which he graduated in 1876, a year ahead of the famous Mohawk poet, Pauline Johnson. Her grandfather, Smoke Johnson, had also kept his land separate from the reserve.

According to documents gathered by his descendants, Green tutored younger students to raise the money to attend McGill. It is also believed he received some sort of scholarship for his good grades in high school.

At some point during his years in Ottawa, he married Mary Catherine Plumb, a Prescott women who was staying with a sister in the capital when they met.

Over the years they lived in Kenora, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Wetaskawin, Sask., Dawson City, Yukon, and on a homestead farm near Rocky Mountain House, Alta., where they died six months apart in 1935. They had no children.

In a 1967 native history, Trail of the Iroquois Indians, Green was described as a "raconteur with a splendid command of English." He was also a noted world traveller, the book said, mentioning a tour of Europe he took with his wife in 1910.

He died at 77 in a Rocky Mountain House hotel corridor after spending the day saying goodbye to old friends before his departure for the winter to British Columbia. He was buried with full Masonic honours.

"I think of him as one of the great unsung native heroes," says Mr. Kitchen. "Maybe one day he'll get the recognition he deserved during his lifetime."
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/...3a7460&k=49802

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01-07-2011, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
....if we are going to allow trades in the draft,...
An idea. In choosing which division to join, one decides: one conference could have strict trade restrictions while the other conference be more trade happy. The conference winners won't meet until the draft final so there's little in way of competition parity issues.

Or both conferences could have strict trading restrictions.

For sure: There will be at least one conference with a no-trading-out-of-a-round rule (e.g., can trade away a 1st round pick only if receiving back a 1st round pick).

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01-07-2011, 09:57 PM
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William Northey division

A 1947 HHOF inductee as Builder, lobbied to remove the Rover position and to have three 20 minute periods, influential executive in Montreal and co-builder of the Montreal Forum.



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Born in Leeds, Quebec, Northey became secretary at the Montreal Hockey Club in 1893. He would help lead the team to two Stanley Cups. In 1909, he helped convince ice hockey executives to change two rules still in place today. The first was the change from a game consisting of two 30 minute halves to three 20 minute periods. He was also instrumental in the decision to discontinue the rover position. The number of players on the ice per team was dropped to six.

He formed the Canadian Arena Company and was instrumental in building Arena Gardens in Toronto, and owned Montreal Arena, which burned down in 1918. In 1924, he helped construct the famous Montreal Forum. From 1947 to 1946 he served as Vice President with Montreal. He spent the 1956-57 season as President of the Montreal Canadiens. The Canadiens were sold to Molson Family in summer of 1957, and Northey retired from hockey. William Northey name was engraved on the Stanley Cup 3 times in 1953, 1956, 1957.

Northey was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame as a Builder in 1947.

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01-07-2011, 10:05 PM
  #7
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What about Louis Magnus, the first president of the IIHF for a division name?

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QUEBEC CITY – May 15, 2008 is the 100th birthday of the International Ice Hockey Federation, and there’s much to celebrate when you consider how the organization has grown since its humble beginnings.

It originally came together thanks to the initiative of a French journalist named Louis Magnus, who was perturbed by the differences he’d observed in hockey rules and how they were interpreted in different nations. A game in Les Avants, Switzerland, on January 15, 1905, brought that to his attention, and he wrote a column for the Bulletin du Club des Patineurs de Paris, stating: “It would be wise to find a solution for the unification of the rules of hockey. The question is being studied and we hope to bring a solution this year.”

Since the International Ice Skating Union wasn’t interested in addressing the issues, Magnus ultimately decided to form his own federation dedicated to ice hockey, La Ligue Internationale de Hockey sur Glace (LIHG). It was the forerunner of today’s IIHF.

The founding Congress of the LIHG was held at a sports club at 34 rue de Provence in Paris, France, on May 15 and 16, 1908.

Representing France were Magnus and two fellow executives of the Club des Patineurs de Paris, Robert Planque and Robert van der Hoeven. For Switzerland, it was Eduard Mellor and Louis Dufour; for Belgium, Eddie De Clercq and Eduard Malaret; and for Great Britain, E.E. Mavrogodato of the National Skating Association.

Magnus was chosen as the first president of the LIHG and Planque became the first general secretary. Later that year, Bohemia became the LIHG’s fifth member.

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01-07-2011, 10:07 PM
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Marcus Vinnerborg division

The first European referee in the NHL.



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Marcus Vinnerborg, the first European-trained official to work in the NHL, doesn't really see himself as a pioneer.

"Of course, you're the pioneer when you're the first one to do something," he told NHL.com after officiating the Colorado Avalanche's 4-3 overtime win against the San Jose Sharks at the Pepsi Center on Wednesday night. "To be honest, I don't look at it too much like that. I came here to learn from the best officials in the world and to adapt to their way of working, and to work in the best league in the world.

"It's an opportunity I couldn't turn down. A pioneer or not, I would have come anyway. Hopefully everything works out well. So far I have had a very good start."

Vinnerborg, 38, previously worked in the Swedish Elite League and has handled a number of major international assignments, including the 2010 Olympics in Vancouver and several International Ice Hockey Federation World Championships.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=543852

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01-07-2011, 10:11 PM
  #9
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Louis Magnus division

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Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
What about Louis Magnus, the first president of the IIHF for a division name?
A wonderful candidate, founding the IIHF and lobbying for standarding rules for international play.



Quote:
... a French journalist named Louis Magnus, who was perturbed by the differences he’d observed in hockey rules and how they were interpreted in different nations. A game in Les Avants, Switzerland, on January 15, 1905, brought that to his attention, and he wrote a column for the Bulletin du Club des Patineurs de Paris, stating: “It would be wise to find a solution for the unification of the rules of hockey. The question is being studied and we hope to bring a solution this year.”

Since the International Ice Skating Union wasn’t interested in addressing the issues, Magnus ultimately decided to form his own federation dedicated to ice hockey, La Ligue Internationale de Hockey sur Glace (LIHG). It was the forerunner of today’s IIHF.

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01-08-2011, 12:14 AM
  #10
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
An idea. In choosing which division to join, one decides: one conference could have strict trade restrictions while the other conference be more trade happy. The conference winners won't meet until the draft final so there's little in way of competition parity issues.

Or both conferences could have strict trading restrictions.

For sure: There will be at least one conference with a no-trading-out-of-a-round rule (e.g., can trade away a 1st round pick only if receiving back a 1st round pick).
different rules for different conferences? I don't like that.

no trading ouot of a round? How utterly boring. may as well outlaw trading altogether.

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01-08-2011, 12:19 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Some GMs have already stated they don't want certain teams in their division any more, so we could accommodate the wish one of two ways:

1. EACH TEAM COULD SUBMIT A LIST OF TEAMS THEY DON'T WANT IN THEIR DIVISION (ALONG WITH A SHORTLIST OF DESIRED RIVALS).
It's not that at all. It just gets stale having the same team in your division each draft.

We definitely can't have option 2 and leave it open to people "cherrypicking" their division, waiting to see which one has the new GMs in it or LL or whoever...

No one should have to submit a list of who they don't want in their division. That just sounds negative to me. Just mix it up yourself.

If the divisions were ABCD EFGH IJKL MNOP, then make them AEIM BFJN CGKO DHLP. Not difficult at all. No work involved. No cherrypicking. and the divisions get royally mixed up.

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01-08-2011, 12:20 AM
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the draft would not be complete without a James Creighton Division.



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Originally Posted by wikipedia.org
Role in ice hockey developmentJames Creighton is considered the "father of ice hockey," although he never claimed that honour. After moving to Montreal from Halifax to study and to work in engineering, Creighton sometimes acted as a figure skating judge at the Victoria Skating Club's Victoria Skating Rink. As a member of the Club, he organized early morning sessions of informal hockey at the rink with his friends from McGill University and members of the Club. It was here that Creighton captained of one of the two teams that participated in the first recorded indoor game of organized ice hockey on March 3, 1875. His nine-man team won two "games" (goals) to one over the opposition led by Charles Torrance. According to team-mate Henry Joseph, Mr. Creighton also organized the game. "It was this exhibition which aroused city-wide interest and gave rise to the formation of other ice hockey teams and to the rapid development of the game," McGill's physical education director Emanuel M. Orlick would write in The Gazette in 1943. In 1877, Mr. Creighton became the captain of the first known organized ice hockey team, the McGill University club.

Mr. Creighton had played sports during his boyhood in Halifax, where a free-wheeling, stick-ball game called "ricket", "shinny" or occasionally "hockey", was played on ice outdoors with any number of players. It is believed that Creighton developed rules for the organized indoor game from the style of play of those games in Halifax, where (according to some historians) they had developed out of a Scottish game called shinty. However, ice hockey also has its roots in the aboriginal game of lacrosse, the English game of field hockey, the Irish game of hurling and the northern European game of bandy. Mr. Creighton is thought to be the person responsible for publishing the first rules for ice hockey in the February 27, 1877 edition of The Gazette (although the rules were virtually identical to previously published field hockey rules).

While living and working in Ottawa, Creighton continued his interest in ice hockey and joined with young parliamentarians and government 'aides de camp' to form a team called the Rideau Hall Rebels, after the residence of the Governor General of Canada, in Ottawa. That team played games in and around Ottawa and became well known. Creighton befriended teammates William Stanley and Arthur Stanley, sons of then Canadian Governor General Lord Stanley. In 1892, Lord Stanley presented a trophy — the Dominion Hockey Challenge Cup, known today as the Stanley Cup — to designate the amateur ice hockey championship of Canada.

Mr. Creighton was inducted into the Nova Scotia Sport Hall of Fame in 1993 as the "father of organized hockey."

On May 22, 2008, Mr. Creighton was honoured with a plaque at Centre Bell in Montreal, Quebec, the home rink of the Montreal Canadiens. The plaque was unveiled by Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper. Centre Bell is located near the site of the old Victoria Skating Rink.[1]

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01-08-2011, 12:59 AM
  #13
EagleBelfour
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the draft would not be complete without a James Creighton Division.

Oh, definitely!

---

I'll have to agree with everyone else and just keep it simple. If someone want to acquire a second 1st round pick, and someone don't want a 1st round pick, so be it. I've won my division by trading for another first round pick, I've won my division by not having a 1st round pick. Good drafting is what makes a good team, and that rely entirely on the GM's. And anyway, dosn't we have a commitee to disallow lopsided trades?

However, I like the idea of eight 5 team division, with the 4th and 5th team playing an home-away game, just like in European football. (BTW, just finished reading Fever Pitch by Nick Hornby, and I'm sure some hockey fan, but also some ATD'ers could recognize themselves to a certain extent in that book)

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01-08-2011, 01:17 AM
  #14
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We already play for the James Creighton Cup! So no need to double dip.

Like MLB and like the PCHA-NHA, there could be different rules for each conference/"league" (option 3 below) as they DON'T play each other until the final cup series!

Our options are:

1. No trades across the board.
2. Restricted trading across the board (no trading out of any round, but can trade up or down in any round in exchange for up or down picks in later rounds).
3. No trades or restricted trades in one conference and unrestricted trading in another conference. Each team can choose which conference to be in (not which division, just which conference).

There is no loosy-goosy-silly-open-trading-for-all option. We have had GMs complain about that before, teams that do lopsided trades in their advantage get away with murder as long as each is not 'too lopsided', and especially this time, with 40 teams it's a ton of work.

So if you want open trading then vote for option 3 and your team will go into the open trading conference wherein 20 teams can have at it! (PMs will be sent to everyone concerning this AFTER we hit 40 teams.)


Last edited by VanIslander: 01-08-2011 at 01:30 AM.
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01-08-2011, 01:27 AM
  #15
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I'm definitely not his biggest fan, but we could consider Don Cherry.

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01-08-2011, 01:31 AM
  #16
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NO coaches please. The divisions are to be for those we do NOT pick. He is picked as a coach and that's honour enough.

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What divisional names do you suggest? Names of historically important figures in the game who are NOT draft picks (e.g., owners, referees, journalists, builders, etc).
A Ron MacLean division, now that makes sense.

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01-08-2011, 01:48 AM
  #17
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If the divisions were ABCD EFGH IJKL MNOP, then make them AEIM BFJN CGKO DHLP. Not difficult at all. No work involved. No cherrypicking. and the divisions get royally mixed up.
Since we had 8 teams per division last year and we will have 8 divisions this year (assuming we get 40 teams) then it will be easy to do that. It can still be done via draft position like last year, but with the above constraint. Just like a team could still choose which conference to be in (if option 3 re trading is voted on) as it'll be a constraint added to the draft-position-structuring-divisional-assignment procedure.

If there are any two teams wishing to be divisional rivals, that could be accommodated as well.

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01-08-2011, 03:09 AM
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xxxx


Last edited by EagleBelfour: 01-08-2011 at 03:17 AM. Reason: Losing my mind, I don't remember how to delete a post!
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01-08-2011, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Our options are:

1. No trades across the board.
2. Restricted trading across the board (no trading out of any round, but can trade up or down in any round in exchange for up or down picks in later rounds).
3. No trades or restricted trades in one conference and unrestricted trading in another conference. Each team can choose which conference to be in (not which division, just which conference).

There is no loosy-goosy-silly-open-trading-for-all option.
You might disagree with it, but the 'no-restriction' on trades is definitely an option, and seeing the other three options, the one I'm selecting.

Why don't we do exactly like we did last draft? It went very well, no?

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01-08-2011, 03:32 AM
  #20
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This is a fair assortment of options to vote on:

Quote:
Our options are:

1. No trades across the board.
2. Restricted trading across the board (no trading out of any round, but can trade up or down in any round in exchange for up or down picks in later rounds).
3. No trades or restricted trades in one conference and unrestricted trading in another conference. Each team can choose which conference to be in (not which division, just which conference).

So if you want open trading then vote for option 3 and your team will go into the open trading conference wherein 20 teams can have at it! (PMs will be sent to everyone concerning this AFTER we hit 40 teams.)

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01-08-2011, 03:41 AM
  #21
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VanIslander made a great point via PM, that a 'no-restriction' trade would put a boatload more work on his shoulder, although I'm not sure how much more work it is from option #2. However, some of the 'fun' factor would go down if we don't allow trades. Also, I think the worst option would be two sets of rules.

I'll reconsider my answer.

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01-08-2011, 03:46 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I think the worst option would be two sets of rules.
Why? Just like a PCHA league and NHA league deciding who plays for the Stanley Cup based on each league using its own rules...

So could each conference of 20 teams here. It is not until the 5th round of the playoffs, with two teams remaining, that teams in different conferences will face each other!

And then the difference between the team that traded and the team that didn't trade is the same as the difference between a team that makes lots of trades and a team that chooses NOT to make trades.

(If it's unfair for one team to trade and another not to, then that means there should be no trades whatsoever! or else there is pressure on all teams to trade if other teams trade.)

Each team can choose which conference to put their team in. That way the trade happy can be happy and the no-trades contingent can be happy. Two entirely independent conferences!

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01-08-2011, 04:03 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Why? Just like a PCHA league and NHA league deciding who plays for the Stanley Cup based on each league using its own rules...

So could each conference of 20 teams here. It is not until the 5th round of the playoffs, with two teams remaining, that teams in different conferences will face each other!

And then the difference between the team that traded and the team that didn't trade is the same as the difference between a team that makes lots of trades and a team that chooses NOT to make trades.

(If it's unfair for one team to trade and another not to, then that means there should be no trades whatsoever! or else there is pressure on all teams to trade if other teams trade.)

Each team can choose which conference to put their team in. That way the trade happy can be happy and the no-trades contingent can be happy. Two entirely independent conferences!
They're 4 results that can happen when you do a trade:

win-win
win-lose
lose-win
lose-lose

So at the end, there's as much incentive to trade than not to trade. And most importantly, it's a fun draft first and foremost. If the winner of this gain anything more than bragging right, I would understand it.

I like thinking of the ATD as a big family. It really don't feel right putting two sets of rules. It's like playing two different games at the same time.

If you tell me that you don't want trades, because it will put too much work on your shoulders, I will consider changing my vote. If you don't want trades (or limit them), because it's unfair, I disagree with that.

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Old
01-08-2011, 04:10 AM
  #24
VanIslander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
They're 4 results that can happen when you do a trade:

win-win
win-lose
lose-win
lose-lose

So at the end, there's as much incentive to trade than not to trade.
You are looking only at the two teams IN the trade!

In a win-win scenario both teams in the trade are better off and that means those NOT in the trade are worse off relative to them!!

win-win, win-lose and lose-win means 1 or 2 teams have benefitted from trading and so the teams that don't want to trade at all end up doing worse.

We talked about doing a no-trade draft some day, and with 40 teams this may be the time!

But there is the option of satisfying the traders and nontraders: different conferences!

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Old
01-08-2011, 04:48 AM
  #25
EagleBelfour
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We can agree to disagree VanI, and you definitely make some decent point. However, the argumentation that people who trades have an edge over the one who don't, really don't hold much to me, as I believe the All-Time Draft should be consider a fun draft first and foremost.

I don't like the two conference thing, because it will mainly separate the draft in two. I'll take a no-trade draft before that.

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