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Montreal Canadiens Jacques Martin Cheats the Habs with “The System”

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Old
01-17-2011, 08:04 AM
  #26
llamateizer
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Originally Posted by HarryI View Post
Apparently the Flyers have Jacques Martin as coach as they did the same thing today. Flyers had 3 shots in the 3rd with a 3 goal lead. Won 3-2.
its the NY rangers system..

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01-17-2011, 08:57 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
When it happens almost every time when we have a lead, you have to wonder what exactly is the coach telling his players. He's probably not saying ''dump it, and come back in the D zone to make sure we have our 5 players there''.
But he might say something along the lines of don't rush up unless you're certain of the play, or have a one man easy forecheck.
In other words, just telling your players to be more careful is enough to make them more cautious, which in turn makes them forecheck with less intensity/aggressiveness. This combined with a team that has the complete opposite mentality, ''full out attack as we have no choice but to score'', leads to us being dominated and sitting back.

If you tell AK (or basically the team) to just go full out offense and not care about the Defense, it's all good, then you will see him cheat a lot more and he will eventually get a chance. Maybe we will give up a goal in the process, or maybe we will be the ones scoring. Bottom line is the team will still be thinking offense.
Our team is constantly thinking Defense, it's Martin's way. So, going into the 3rd period with a lead, our team is probably thinking Defense x2 considering it's the coach's overall idea.

If I have a coach constantly telling me to be defensively aware, and I'm heading into the 3rd period with a lead, you can be sure I'll take my foot off the pedal offensively and focus more on defense, it's only normal. I'm not saying it's Martin telling them to slow down, but subconsciously, because they're so focused on Defense all the time, they'll instinctively take less risk and forecheck less.

It will happen to every team, every now and then, to end up losing a game while leading going into the 3rd. When it happens regularly though, you have to think it's more than just players poorly executing the system. Why would they consistently execute the system poorly if heading into the 3rd with a lead, compared to other periods??..

This is a pretty good post. I believe you hit it.

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Old
01-17-2011, 09:05 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by chrisralph007 View Post
If he's to blame for the third, is he also to be applauded for the first and second periods?


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Old
01-17-2011, 09:10 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Why is this Martins fault? Why does execution always get blamed on him?
Because it's a lot easier for a fan's ego to blame the coach than it is to blame the players.

If they start blaming the players, then they also have to come to terms with the fact that their team is not as good as they thought it was, which is akin to admitting that they were wrong...something many people have a hard time doing.

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01-17-2011, 09:11 AM
  #30
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This is purely fabricated.

I listened to the game on the radio Saturday night because I was on the road. They interviewed JM on CKAC right after the game and they asked him specifically "What did you think about the 3rd period", his answer?

"I would have liked our team to spend more time in the offensive zone".

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Old
01-17-2011, 09:55 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davebo View Post
If he's to blame for the third, is he also to be applauded for the first and second periods?

Definitely not, that is all the players Davebo. Duh, do you not know?

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Old
01-17-2011, 10:06 AM
  #32
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have any of you whiners ever played sports?? LEading team always plays safe to protect lead, you really want PK to start Subbydoo'ing all over the ice for that statpad goal?? CREATIVITY YEAH

Also typical homer blinders on, the only team playing is the HABS. Cuz the Rangers, a playoff team who also has 60 million $ of NHL talent, couldn't possibly influence a hockey game by rallying in the 3rd period and putting the Habs on their heels. The only possible influence on the hockey game in HABLAND is JACQUES MARTIN!!!

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Old
01-17-2011, 10:17 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
have any of you whiners ever played sports?? LEading team always plays safe to protect lead, you really want PK to start Subbydoo'ing all over the ice for that statpad goal?? CREATIVITY YEAH

Also typical homer blinders on, the only team playing is the HABS. Cuz the Rangers, a playoff team who also has 60 million $ of NHL talent, couldn't possibly influence a hockey game by rallying in the 3rd period and putting the Habs on their heels. The only possible influence on the hockey game in HABLAND is JACQUES MARTIN!!!
Bang on.

It's easy to find the athletes among the fanatics.

The psychology is so different between a team down one goal and a team up one goal. The player with his team up a goal plays with new found intensity, a hunger to tie the game up and not lose. You bring that playoff fever to your play. You're willing to push that much harder. The player with his team down a goal plays with uncertainty, has a tendency to stick to defensive role instead of offensive role and doesn't want to risk costing the team the win by trying something different.

Every time I hear this argument come up, it tends to be from the person who has only watched one half of the game: the team they are cheering. Everything their team does was because their team is great or because they sucked. It is never due to the opposing team. Anyone who has been traded mid-season in a league knows the feeling of the locker room in comparison to a winning team and a losing team. The passion is different. The psychology is different. The mindset is different.

But yeah, it's the coach psychologically telling his players to back peddle and not properly protect the lead. Go with what works, guys.

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Old
01-17-2011, 10:21 AM
  #34
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Coach / Player Quotes

Martin's quote describing needed offensive play and Hamrlik's quote tell me the burden is more on the players to not sit back with a lead. Either that or Hamrlik is essentially saying he doesn't like the JM system. LOL

The same thing happened in the Rangers - Flyers game last night. The Flyers coughed up a 3 - 0 lead and barely came away with a one goal victory in the third.

And essentially the Habs played a third period of hockey in Detroit's zone too and did everything but tie the score.

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Old
01-17-2011, 10:30 AM
  #35
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Funny thing is that the Habs are 16-1-2 leading after 2 periods.

As others have said, it's the same thing with all teams, at all levels, in all sports. JM is not to blame for this.

With that said, Kriss E's post does have some merit though. JM puts emphasis on playing sound defensively all the time, so though he likely doesn't tell players to play any differently, I'm sure the players know that if they make a defensive mistake that costs them the game, they'll get an earful or benching from the coach.

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Old
01-17-2011, 10:38 AM
  #36
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To the critics of JM: Who was the last Habs coach who met your standards? Gainey? Carbonneau? Julien? Therrien? Vigneault? JM took a team that was half new into the third round of the playoffs despite injuries all along the way. Carbonneau took an injury-free team into the playoffs, where it barely survived the first round against the 8th-place Bruins and fell apart against the Flyers in the second round. I wasn't happy with any coach who came after Pat Burns. Vigneault gets a pass because the Habs were a lousy team when he had them. If I had to pick the "least worst" among them I would say Julien.

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01-17-2011, 10:39 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
have any of you whiners ever played sports?? LEading team always plays safe to protect lead, you really want PK to start Subbydoo'ing all over the ice for that statpad goal?? CREATIVITY YEAH

Also typical homer blinders on, the only team playing is the HABS. Cuz the Rangers, a playoff team who also has 60 million $ of NHL talent, couldn't possibly influence a hockey game by rallying in the 3rd period and putting the Habs on their heels. The only possible influence on the hockey game in HABLAND is JACQUES MARTIN!!!
The flipside of your rant is that "OMG we should ALL Go Into PYLON MODE YEAH!!!1!"

We played an imbalanced game. So did the Rangers. I'm guessing Torts isn't fully satisfied with his team's execution, and JM shouldn't have been either.

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Old
01-17-2011, 10:40 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
With that said, Kriss E's post does have some merit though. JM puts emphasis on playing sound defensively all the time, so though he likely doesn't tell players to play any differently, I'm sure the players know that if they make a defensive mistake that costs them the game, they'll get an earful or benching from the coach.
Maybe I'm old (I am old) but isn't that the way it should be?

Maybe we should have a psychoanalyst on the bench for these players to tell them about their feelings of sometimes failing when they are a multi-millionaire. "I might get yelled at or not play if I lose it for the team. It's so hard!"

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01-17-2011, 10:55 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedrik View Post
The flipside of your rant is that "OMG we should ALL Go Into PYLON MODE YEAH!!!1!"

We played an imbalanced game. So did the Rangers. I'm guessing Torts isn't fully satisfied with his team's execution, and JM shouldn't have been either.
As opposed to making all or nothing stretch passes to forwards who are playing high when the Rangers D is already pinching in as they apply lots of offensive pressure?? Brilliant way to protect leads, I think you might be lost here, I'll help you out:

http://hfboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=25

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Old
01-17-2011, 11:06 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
As opposed to making all or nothing stretch passes to forwards who are playing high when the Rangers D is already pinching in as they apply lots of offensive pressure?? Brilliant way to protect leads, I think you might be lost here, I'll help you out:

http://hfboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=25
I can tell you're upset, since my post contained nothing of "all or nothing" or "stretch passes." You hammered?

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Old
01-17-2011, 11:10 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by chrisralph007 View Post

I find it hilarious that people actually listen to and believe this horse****!!! There are too many people that have never played hockey or know anything about the game that have their opinion posted all over these boards.

Jacques Martin is a great coach. He's done more for the Hab than the last 5 coaches have done. The players go out in the 3rd period and play nervous, protect-the-lead type hockey and don't do their jobs, but yet its always the coach that is to blame.....

Besides the odd too many men penalty or changing the lines a little too frequently, there is nothing Martin is doing wrong with the Habs. I love how he treats rookies too. Rookies these days come to a team and think they can play however they want and get away with it, well Martin benches, scratches players who don't play hard enough, don't follow the system the rest of the team is playing and makes them realize that they are rookies on the team and have a lot to learn and a long way to go. Thats the only way to treat rookies IMO. You can't let them get too high on themselves for too long....you gotta keep them in check and not let them get too cocky.

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01-17-2011, 11:17 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
This is purely fabricated.

I listened to the game on the radio Saturday night because I was on the road. They interviewed JM on CKAC right after the game and they asked him specifically "What did you think about the 3rd period", his answer?

"I would have liked our team to spend more time in the offensive zone".

BUT BUT....BUT Martin is a defensive coach and forces the team to play like garbage when they have the lead......LOL

Martin isn't a defensive coach in my eyes. He wants the team to be sound defensively yes, but he still wants them to spend most of the game in the other teams end, creating offensive chances.....just like any other coach. Martin is teaching the Habs players how to be solid in your own end and transition the puck to the forwards so they can use their offensive skills to score goals and create chances. If he was a defensive only coach like a lot of people want to believe, the Habs would be dumping the puck in everytime they got to the other teams blueline and set up the trap in the neutral zone. Thats not the case, so Martin is NOT a defensive coach like so many people piss and moan about.

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Old
01-17-2011, 11:19 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Pleky Roks View Post
BUT BUT....BUT Martin is a defensive coach and forces the team to play like garbage when they have the lead......LOL

Martin isn't a defensive coach in my eyes. He wants the team to be sound defensively yes, but he still wants them to spend most of the game in the other teams end, creating offensive chances.....just like any other coach. Martin is teaching the Habs players how to be solid in your own end and transition the puck to the forwards so they can use their offensive skills to score goals and create chances. If he was a defensive only coach like a lot of people want to believe, the Habs would be dumping the puck in everytime they got to the other teams blueline and set up the trap in the neutral zone. Thats not the case, so Martin is NOT a defensive coach like so many people piss and moan about.
I always saw Martin as a two-way coach. Mike Babcock is the same way, only better.

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01-17-2011, 11:23 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Jedrik View Post
I can tell you're upset, since my post contained nothing of "all or nothing" or "stretch passes." You hammered?
OK Mr. Bowman, what do you suggest the Canadiens do when the Rangers smell a comeback and are playing very high intensity hockey and applying heavy offensive style hockey to force a goal?

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01-17-2011, 11:29 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
OK Mr. Bowman, what do you suggest the Canadiens do when the Rangers smell a comeback and are playing very high intensity hockey and applying heavy offensive style hockey to force a goal?
I recommend all-or-nothing stretch passes, of course.

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Old
01-17-2011, 11:33 AM
  #46
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JM took a team that was half new into the third round of the playoffs despite injuries all along the way.
Last year's team was a disaster. Halak dragged JM along to the third round of the playoffs, but the team was typically completely outclassed in front of him. Unless JM's game plan was to let the goalie get bombed and pray he stands on his head, there's no way he can be credited with outcoaching anyone in the playoffs.

I have no issues with JM's management now and am, in fact, very impressed in the complete turnaround in the team's overall game. They have become a pretty strong possession club, which outplays and outchances their opponents more often than not, which was not the case last year. It's a shame Montreal fluked their way to the ECF because they don't get the credit they deserve for the gigantic turnaround of this year, and JM must get credit for that. At the same time, he shouldn't get credit where none is due.

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01-17-2011, 11:35 AM
  #47
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Last year's team was a disaster. Halak dragged JM along to the third round of the playoffs, but the team was typically completely outclassed in front of him. Unless JM's game plan was to let the goalie get bombed and pray he stands on his head, there's no way he can be credited with outcoaching anyone in the playoffs.
I love how when people refuse to give credit to this teams coaching, defense or forwards two way play, Montreal ends up doing something that has only been repeated once in the last 20 years and it was by one of the best goaltenders to ever play the game (Hasek with Buffalo).

Oh, and Gionta and Cammalleri scored a lot of goals while being outclassed because... Halak stood on his head.

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01-17-2011, 11:46 AM
  #48
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Lots of people have the same complaint in Boston. The players don't go out to play hockey...they go out to execute the system like robots most of the time. Most games feature very little spontaneity or creativity these days.
I'm not saying this is the case with Martin , but back when Julien was coaching the habs, Dandenault was mic'ed once and Julien gave him **** for helping the offense when we were down 3-0. Hated him ever since.

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01-17-2011, 12:11 PM
  #49
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I recommend all-or-nothing stretch passes, of course.


What in the world does this even mean?

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01-17-2011, 12:13 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
I love how when people refuse to give credit to this teams coaching, defense or forwards two way play, Montreal ends up doing something that has only been repeated once in the last 20 years and it was by one of the best goaltenders to ever play the game (Hasek with Buffalo).
If coaching, defense, or two-way play were a factor in the playoffs, I would expect the Habs to have generated chances for when they needed a goal, limited chances against when they had to clamp down, and generally not just get dominated wire to wire in the majority of the games.

None of this happened. I don't give much credit to the coaching's impact on the playoff victories because practically no evidence thereof actually exists.

It's a classic case of a too-common malady in hockey journalism: going back from the end result to create a plausible-sounding cause. It's important to look over the process to see how it led to the result -- not look at the result and deduce the process from there, which is what too many hockey analysts do (be it for teams or for players).

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Oh, and Gionta and Cammalleri scored a lot of goals while being outclassed because... Halak stood on his head.
I'll amend it then. The Habs were also opportunistic in taking advantadge of weaker opposing goaltending.

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