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Kaberle for Wheeler

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Old
01-17-2011, 04:11 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by cneely View Post
Blake Wheeler is a very similar player to Nikolai Kulemin.

Less physical, but more responsible defensively.

Kulemin makes 300k more though.
Yeah except Kulemin is on pace for 30 goals and Wheeler 18. But yeah 30-18 pretty much the same.

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01-17-2011, 04:12 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by thebluewhiteandused View Post
We don`t need defensive forwards, we have plenty. Wheeler by himself is not worth Kaberle. Veteran leadership, calm presence at the blue line, and play off experience. Wheeler is just gonna be another 20-25 goal scorer, and we have enough of those players in grabo, kulie, macarthur and versteeg.

Nothing against Wheeler, but if you look at Toronto`s forwards we`re lacking a mature scoring forward who can share leadership roles with Phaneuf.
Fair enough, although I wouldn't call him a defensive forward. He's solid offensively as well, and IMO would thrive given more ice time and PP time.

The point is that a good young winger like Wheeler is pretty close to fair value for a very good defenceman who is 2 months from free agency.

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01-17-2011, 04:13 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by cneely View Post
Blake Wheeler is a very similar player to Nikolai Kulemin.

Less physical, but more responsible defensively.

Kulemin makes 300k more though.
Except that Kuly is in the midst of a breakout 30gl/60pt type campaign (better than the likes of Horton and Lucic, and would be leading your team in goals and maybe even points I think), with the total package of physicality and defensive play included, while Wheeler is still just a buttersoft 20gl/40pt man, who has regressed more than progressed in his 3 years in the league.

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01-17-2011, 04:16 PM
  #254
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Inferior players often put up more points on inferior teams. It's not a new thing, but still something Leafs fans have a hard time comprehending.

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01-17-2011, 04:17 PM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Yeah except Kulemin is on pace for 30 goals and Wheeler 18. But yeah 30-18 pretty much the same.
Career:

Kulemin Born Jul, 1986 100 pts in 195 games = 0.51 PPG
Wheeler Born Aug, 1986 103 pts in 207 games = 0.50 PPG

You're right. They aren't comparable at all.

Wheeler averages 15:28 per game, 1:50 on the PP
Kulemin, 17:34 and 2:45.

A minute more per game on the PP, and 2 minutes a game. Kulemin has 23 even strength points. Wheeler, 19.

Offensively, these 2 players are about as identical as you can get.

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01-17-2011, 04:17 PM
  #256
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It is blatantly obvious that you haven't been watching Wheeler this year if you think he is "buttersoft". He has been playing with an edge and has been finishing his checks, while also playing stellar defense.

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01-17-2011, 04:19 PM
  #257
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This has gotten to the point of the absurd. Okay so I check out faceoff.com and Wheeler is on pace for 36 points this year as a forward and Kaberle is on pace for 53 as a defensemen! Are you kidding me, on what planet is this a good trade for the Leafs? Wheeler had 38 points last year as well, he is what he is so why would Toronto want him. Not a chance Burke makes this deal one for one, no f'ng way.

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01-17-2011, 04:19 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Eytinge View Post
Do you measure a successful season by that? I guess Toronto doesn't strive for wins, they just want to have their players out-produce boston's.
Well it's a good start, signing cheaper and better players like MacArthur over trading Kaberle (losing a very valuable asset) for a 40 point forward who wouldn't even fit into our lineup is how you definitely would destroy it.

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01-17-2011, 04:20 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Except that Kuly is in the midst of a breakout 30gl/60pt type campaign (better than the likes of Horton and Lucic, and would be leading your team in goals and maybe even points I think), with the total package of physicality and defensive play included, while Wheeler is still just a buttersoft 20gl/40pt man, who has regressed more than progressed in his 3 years in the league.
On a shallower team with fewer offensive weapons.
I like Kulemin. A lot. He's a very, very good winger. But he's getting much, much more ice time than Wheeler, and in more offensively advantageous situations, ie PP time.

Again zeke. Watch Wheeler play. He's playing great hockey, and is much more physical than he's been in the past.

Don't let the stat sheet make your mind up for you.

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01-17-2011, 04:20 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by nycbruins View Post
Fair enough. Then they should re-sign him and get another winger via UFA. Or even pull a Hurricanes and trade him and then re-sign him after the season.

But if the Bruins went so far as to include a good pick with Wheeler, I highly doubt the Leafs will see a better package for 2+ months of a player.

Of course, in a vacuum Kaberle is a lot more valuable than Wheeler. But it's not the way it is. and I don't know what contending teams are going to be willing to part with a young Top 6 forward in the middle of the season for a rental (maybe San Jose, they really need a d-man, but with Boyle there, I would think they'd be looking for a bigger, more defensive guy)

This is not a damnation of Kaberle, I would absolutely love to have him on the Bruins. It's just the way it is with pending free agency and why so many teams lock their players up before it gets to this because value is decreasing.
It's not the way it is as guys like Kovy, Hossa, and Campbell are traded at or near the deadline as impending UFAs. In each case they garnered a 1st and a young roster player. Wheeler and a 1st is very comparable to Bernier and a 1st. The price SJ payed for rental Campbell.

Tired of reading all the BS about impending UFAs. History shows Domenic Moore, Raffi Torres, Nik Antropov, etc all got 2nd round picks. Kaberle is light years ahead of ALL those deadline impending UFAs.

So, logic and history, show that pending UFAs can ganer 1st round picks plus. Especially when the player is in the top 10 of defenceman scoring and on pace for 56 points. Something he's done repeatedly in his career.

Do you guys realize - obviously not - that only 10% of third round picks make the NHL. Exactly why guys like Moore fetch 2nd rounders. Do you also realize that 38 point forwards don't get 56 point dmen in a trade. Obviously not. Insert funny little shaking head icon here....

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01-17-2011, 04:22 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cneely View Post
Fair enough, although I wouldn't call him a defensive forward. He's solid offensively as well, and IMO would thrive given more ice time and PP time.

The point is that a good young winger like Wheeler is pretty close to fair value for a very good defenceman who is 2 months from free agency.
I wouldn't turn my nose up at the opportunity to have Wheeler.

He would slot into our second line LW pretty well at the moment.

Kulemin - Grabovski - Macarthur
Wheeler - Bozak - Kessel

I wouldn't be too disappointed with that for now. Of course i would love to get more for Kaberle though. What about Wheeler + Boston's 1st round pick for Kaberle? Too much?

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01-17-2011, 04:22 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by youngbloodhockey View Post
Well it's a good start, signing cheaper and better players like MacArthur over trading Kaberle (losing a very valuable asset) for a 40 point forward who wouldn't even fit into our lineup is how you definitely would destroy it.
MacArthur is a great player, and one of the best signings of the off season.
Not every UFA signing works out that way. It's not so easy to just go to the market and sign a young player like Wheeler (or Macarthur).

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01-17-2011, 04:22 PM
  #263
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let's be real here.

You guys want rid of Wheeler, ASAP.

right now you'd rather have Marchand and Seguin as top-9 wingers instead of Wheeler.

We're not morons. We're not going to take your buttersoft castoff for the best trade deadline rental in the league.

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01-17-2011, 04:23 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by BruinsNeedaRussian View Post
They haven't?
Sure seems like the have.

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01-17-2011, 04:25 PM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
let's be real here.

You guys want rid of Wheeler, ASAP.
right now you'd rather have Marchand and Seguin as top-9 wingers instead of Wheeler.

We're not morons. We're not going to take your buttersoft castoff for the best trade deadline rental in the league.
You have no idea what you're talking about.

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01-17-2011, 04:25 PM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
let's be real here.

You guys want rid of Wheeler, ASAP.
Nope. Stop pulling everything out of your *** about Wheeler. You clearly know nothing about him and we aren't looking to dump him.

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01-17-2011, 04:25 PM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreMogilny View Post
I wouldn't turn my nose up at the opportunity to have Wheeler.

He would slot into our second line LW pretty well at the moment.

Kulemin - Grabovski - Macarthur
Wheeler - Bozak - Kessel

I wouldn't be too disappointed with that for now. Of course i would love to get more for Kaberle though. What about Wheeler + Boston's 1st round pick for Kaberle? Too much?
I don't think that's too crazy. Pretty close, IMO.
Either Boston's first, or maybe the Wild 2nd (acquired in the Kobasew deal, should be in the 35-45 range.

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01-17-2011, 04:25 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by mikeo1 View Post
Sure seems like the have.
Based off of what?

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01-17-2011, 04:26 PM
  #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
let's be real here.

You guys want rid of Wheeler, ASAP.

right now you'd rather have Marchand and Seguin as top-9 wingers instead of Wheeler.

We're not morons. We're not going to take your buttersoft castoff for the best trade deadline rental in the league.
Not at all zeke.

I'm more than happy with Wheeler this year. I'd love to have Kaberle though, and you have to give to get.

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01-17-2011, 04:26 PM
  #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
let's be real here.

You guys want rid of Wheeler, ASAP.

right now you'd rather have Marchand and Seguin as top-9 wingers instead of Wheeler.

We're not morons. We're not going to take your buttersoft castoff for the best trade deadline rental in the league.
You're so off base. Before this season? Yeah, Wheeler was on people's nerves. This season? No, he has proven he belongs. We need his speed. Wheeler stays.

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01-17-2011, 04:29 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by cneely View Post
MacArthur is a great player, and one of the best signings of the off season.
Not every UFA signing works out that way. It's not so easy to just go to the market and sign a young player like Wheeler (or Macarthur).
Would you trade Kaberle for Wheeler if they played on opposite teams?

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01-17-2011, 04:29 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by cneely View Post
I don't think that's too crazy. Pretty close, IMO.
Either Boston's first, or maybe the Wild 2nd (acquired in the Kobasew deal, should be in the 35-45 range.
Well if it is the first, i would be very pleased from a Leaf standpoint.

Getting a 1st round pick to help replenish our prospect cupboard, along with a young 6'5" forward that could benefit if given some more ice time would be great.

Even if we were given the Wild 2nd (even though Burke specifically said he isn't looking for 2nd round picks) i would be ok with.

We aren't going to be given the world on a silver platter for Kaberle. As good a player as he is, if offered a 1st + Wheeler that is good enough for me.

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01-17-2011, 04:30 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
It's not the way it is as guys like Kovy, Hossa, and Campbell are traded at or near the deadline as impending UFAs. In each case they garnered a 1st and a young roster player. Wheeler and a 1st is very comparable to Bernier and a 1st. The price SJ payed for rental Campbell.

Tired of reading all the BS about impending UFAs. History shows Domenic Moore, Raffi Torres, Nik Antropov, etc all got 2nd round picks. Kaberle is light years ahead of ALL those deadline impending UFAs.

So, logic and history, show that pending UFAs can ganer 1st round picks plus. Especially when the player is in the top 10 of defenceman scoring and on pace for 56 points. Something he's done repeatedly in his career.

Do you guys realize - obviously not - that only 10% of third round picks make the NHL. Exactly why guys like Moore fetch 2nd rounders. Do you also realize that 38 point forwards don't get 56 point dmen in a trade. Obviously not. Insert funny little shaking head icon here....
Hence why I mentioned the part about the Bruins' adding a pick in 2 different posts. Wheeler & a 1st is very close to Bernier & a 1st. I doubt this "rumor", which I don't even think is good enough right now to consider a rumor, would be all-inclusive. Picks and/or prospects would be added etc.

The Bruins have the picks/prospects to add to Wheeler if they feel desperate enough.

I personally think Wheeler-Kaberle straight up is not nearly as bad of a deal for the Leafs as you do, but I will admit it's probably an underpayment. I think Wheeler will be a 20-20-40 guy with great PK ability for a long time. Don't see why that isn't worth 2 months of Kaberle, but the Bruins would be willing to add considering the lack of available d-men @ the deadline given the parity in the league.

But again, EVERY SINGLE SEASON, you hear this scoffing by fans of non-playoff teams with pending UFA's and every single season the return is nowhere near what the fans opined. It's like clockwork and despite all evidence to the contrary, it will continue forever, it seems.

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01-17-2011, 04:32 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by youngbloodhockey View Post
Would you trade Kaberle for Wheeler if they played on opposite teams?
Assuming we were out of the playoffs and Kabs was a UFA, I'd consider it.
I would probably want a little more though. A decent pick, late 1st, maybe early 2nd.

If Kabs isn't traded (or, I guess, even if he is), any idea on his intentions for next year? Any indication he will re-sign with the Leafs?

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01-17-2011, 04:33 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by MoreMogilny View Post
Well if it is the first, i would be very pleased from a Leaf standpoint.

Getting a 1st round pick to help replenish our prospect cupboard, along with a young 6'5" forward that could benefit if given some more ice time would be great.

Even if we were given the Wild 2nd (even though Burke specifically said he isn't looking for 2nd round picks) i would be ok with.

We aren't going to be given the world on a silver platter for Kaberle. As good a player as he is, if offered a 1st + Wheeler that is good enough for me.
I think that sounds fair, but as a Bruins fan I would probably push for it to be that Wild 2nd due to the risks of him not fitting in Julien's system or not re-signing.

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