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Kaberle for Wheeler

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Old
01-17-2011, 12:06 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by tdoteli View Post
i would rather have kessel , kulemin , maccarthur , armstrong , versteeg playing the wing instead of wheeler. this trade doesn't help us get better. wheeler is so overrated.

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01-17-2011, 12:06 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
I agree. I think TO would be lucky to get Wheeler for Kaberle.

Kaberle is not a 28 year old Brian Campbell in his prime, in the middle of a career season.
That statement is massively backwards.

Toronto wants no part of Wheeler and his 40 point performances for our 4 time all star who's on his way to another 50 point season.

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01-17-2011, 12:09 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by OldTimeHockey View Post
I've said it before, if Toronto moves Kaberle it's a very bad move. Resign him to a 3-4 year contract and be glad you have a quaterback for the PP for the duration of the 'rebuild'.
100% agree. i would consider moving kabs if the deal makes sense and wheeler makes no sense.

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01-17-2011, 12:11 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by youngbloodhockey View Post
That statement is massively backwards.

Toronto wants no part of Wheeler and his 40 point performances for our 4 time all star who's on his way to another 50 point season.

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01-17-2011, 12:13 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by nmbr_24 View Post
I never said the Leafs should want to trade kaberle for Wheeler, I was pointing out that Wheeler is not the soft, bad defensive, player with a bad attitude that some people were saying he was. As a matter of fact, I said in a post in this thread that I wasn't saying the Leafs should want to trade kaberle for Wheeler.

I am actually a person who thinks the Leafs should lock up Kaberle long term. One of the reasons is that he will be an UFA and could walk for free, so if they aren't going to trade him, i think they should lock him up for the foreseeable future.

Now, if they are going to trade him, Boston is one of the teams that has the assets and the need for a player like Kaberle so I can see where all the rumors come from, that and the fact that they tried to trade for him before.

At the same time, i don't expect Chiarelli to trade Wheeler++ for a guy who could walk for free at the end of the season. I would expect Kaberle to be traded in a deal much more like Jay Bouwmeester at this point than what people are asking for in these trade rumors. What is 30 or so games of Kaberle worth? I think a Boumeester/Kaberle comparison is pretty fair.
True, true. I do think however when you look at the price paid for above average players in Keith Ballard, and soon to be UFAs like Kovy, history has shown GMs willing to role the dice for that playoff run with the hopes of signing the player.

Kabs seems to be the perfect compliment to Chara and the type of dman Boston needs. A PMD to get the puck to their talented group of forwards. While Chara is a monster I've never considered him to be an elite PMD. Chia has seen Kaberle for years with Ottawa and Boston and covets him. You'd also think Boston would be a good fit for Kaberle moving forward and a likely destination for him to sign long term - especially if he could get a taste during a playoff run.

I could see Chia giving up Wheeler, Boston 1st, and a salary dump for Kabs and Sjostrom or something similar. I know Boston fans will balk at the idea but there are so many examples of teams out there that have stockpiled first rounders and after 10 years still nothing. See Minnesota, Columbus, Nashville, St. Louis, and even teams like L.A. - whereas the teams like Vancouver and Philly that have made the few extra deals to get top players are the ones reaping the rewards.

At some point you need to move youth for top players if you want to go over the top. Turning a 1st round pick that could be another Zach Hamil into a player like Kabs is not always a bad idea. Kabs could play for another 5-6 years.

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01-17-2011, 12:13 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by youngbloodhockey View Post
That statement is massively backwards.

Toronto wants no part of Wheeler and his 40 point performances for our 4 time all star who's on his way to another 50 point season.
I could see how that would be the way to go as long as the Leafs re-sign Kaberle. If they aren't going to re-sign him, Wheeler is a lot better than nothing.

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01-17-2011, 12:16 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by LeafsandSharksfan View Post
**** that noise, Kaberle is a #2 D-man, so we would only trade him for a top-3 forward.
and that is why he is still a maple leaf

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01-17-2011, 12:18 PM
  #108
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and that is why he is still a maple leaf
exactly. if we get low ball offers then keep the all star defenseman

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01-17-2011, 12:20 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
I'd describe Wheeler's season like this:

Early on the guy was doing everything right. Playing well, making passes, hustling, playing some D... but just not getting pts. But overall he LOOKED better than in other years.

Since then the pts have come somewhat, but I'm starting to see some of the old bad habits.

He's a hard guy to gauge because OTOH there may be some room to grow still, on the other, he really hasn't progressed much in 3 NHL seasons. He looks to me to be exactly what he has been:

a 20-20-40 guy with not a lot else. Yes he does kill penalties (2nd unit pk) but I'm not sure that's enough to up his value much.

He really is not that different from Kulemin, McArthur and Versteeg. While another 20 goal scorer won't hurt Toronto, it may not be their top priority. He has played a little center this year, perhaps if Toronto moved him there, he'd have more value to them.
The only issue with this is he's not playing at the level of any of the 3 you list. Kulemin has 16 goals and 33 points, McArthur 37 points, and Versteeg 31. If you are looking at a comparable Tyler Bozak has 18 points and is the same age. He's also solid defensively and on draws. Most Leaf fans will tell you Bozak is a solid third liner.

So what's a 3rd liner worth when the league is filled with them and Toronto has a glut. He's definitely not the 1st or 2nd line player Burke is looking for. But Burke may have to lower his standards. However Kabs for Wheeler would get Burke ripped in the media, something unlikely to happen. I envision Wheeler plus Boston's first. Kabs is on pace for 56 points as a dman - and has 9 more points than Wheeler. So you wouldn't be out of the ballpark suggesting Wheeler plus a 1st and salary dump for Kabs...56 point dmen don't get traded for 40 point forwards very often.

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01-17-2011, 12:24 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by BadBruins View Post
Upcoming UFA's rarely, if ever, return what most people here on HF expect. Very few first round picks and significant prospects are dealt near deadline day. I expect Kaberle to stay a Leaf anyway.

I'm not a Blake Wheeler fan, but he's FAR from garbage. He's a very good two-way 2nd/3rd line winger with size and the ability to skate. Great PK'er too.
You need to look at past trades because the opposite is true.

Kovy was a UFA what did he get?

Raffi Torres got a 2nd round pick. As did Dominic Moore.

What do you think a dman who's been in the top 10 scoring for the last decade is worth?

You think a 56 point dman isn't worth a 37 point forward?

Only on HF.

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01-17-2011, 12:26 PM
  #111
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POS NAME Team GP G A PTS +/- PPG SHG GWG PIM SHOTS PCT ATOI
D Nicklas Lidstrom DET 45 11 31 42 -1 6 0 1 12 97 11.34 23:50
D Dustin Byfuglien ATL 47 16 25 41 5 6 0 6 45 194 8.25 22:46
D Tobias Enstrom ATL 47 8 32 40 2 5 0 0 28 68 11.76 24:19
D Kris Letang PIT 46 7 33 40 21 3 0 2 54 139 5.04 23:45
D Lubomir Visnovsky ANA 47 8 31 39 6 1 0 1 16 84 9.52 24:25
D Keith Yandle PHX 45 7 28 35 4 2 0 0 40 114 6.14 24:20
D Jack Johnson LA 44 4 28 32 -6 3 0 0 36 83 4.82 24:26
D Brian Rafalski DET 34 4 27 31 16 0 0 0 14 56 7.14 20:22
D John-Michael Liles COL 45 5 26 31 11 2 0 0 25 102 4.90 22:16
D James Wisniewski MTL 40 5 25 30 -17 4 0 1 22 90 5.56 23:13
D Dan Boyle SJ 46 5 25 30 -12 4 0 1 36 133 3.76 27:00
D Tomas Kaberle TOR 44 1 28 29 -3 0 0 1 2 79 1.27 22:49 D Shea Weber NAS 45 8 20 28 7 2 1 1 38 145 5.52 24:55
D Ryan Whitney EDM 35 2 25 27 13 0 0 0 33 43 4.65 25:20
D Jordan Leopold BUF 44 10 16 26 -5 3 0 0 22 83 12

this is the top 15 scoring d-men in the league. kabs is 12th playing for the leafs and you would have to say that if he played on a contender his totals would be higher. wheeler for kabs is a joke of a offer.

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01-17-2011, 12:31 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by nmbr_24 View Post
I could see how that would be the way to go as long as the Leafs re-sign Kaberle. If they aren't going to re-sign him, Wheeler is a lot better than nothing.
Kabs has said he wants to play his career with one team.

Wheeler or nothing is an unfair assumption - you are ass-u-mi-ng that there are no better options out there.

There isn't a Leaf fan out there that wouldn't rather resign Kabs for 4 more years versus 10 more with Wheeler. Wheeler is projecting to a 37 point season - 37 points isn't hard to find out there.

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01-17-2011, 12:31 PM
  #113
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So much talk about how many point Wheeler has. Bruins are defensive team + Wheeler gets little to zero PP time. He is a good solid winger, plays both ends of the ice.

He does not get much opprotuntiy because of how deep the Bruins are. In TO, I'm sure he'd be one of their best wingers.

Sorry, I just don't like the points factor... you must look at the players situation as well.

Does this mean Clarke McArthur is better than anyone on the Bruins roster.

Come on

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01-17-2011, 12:32 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
True, true. I do think however when you look at the price paid for above average players in Keith Ballard, and soon to be UFAs like Kovy, history has shown GMs willing to role the dice for that playoff run with the hopes of signing the player.

Kabs seems to be the perfect compliment to Chara and the type of dman Boston needs. A PMD to get the puck to their talented group of forwards. While Chara is a monster I've never considered him to be an elite PMD. Chia has seen Kaberle for years with Ottawa and Boston and covets him. You'd also think Boston would be a good fit for Kaberle moving forward and a likely destination for him to sign long term - especially if he could get a taste during a playoff run.

I could see Chia giving up Wheeler, Boston 1st, and a salary dump for Kabs and Sjostrom or something similar. I know Boston fans will balk at the idea but there are so many examples of teams out there that have stockpiled first rounders and after 10 years still nothing. See Minnesota, Columbus, Nashville, St. Louis, and even teams like L.A. - whereas the teams like Vancouver and Philly that have made the few extra deals to get top players are the ones reaping the rewards.

At some point you need to move youth for top players if you want to go over the top. Turning a 1st round pick that could be another Zach Hamil into a player like Kabs is not always a bad idea. Kabs could play for another 5-6 years.
Actually, if a deal was expanded it could make more sense. I'm not sure who the players or prospects involved would be, but it could work out.

It is true that there are teams that have had high picks and haven't done well, but, there are far and away more examples of teams being built up through the draft and winning than there are of teams having high picks and losing. Most good teams seem to me to have had the foundation of the team built through the draft and then completed with trades and occasionally free agent signings.

I would have no problem with the Bruins trading their 1st for Kaberle or Wheeler for Kaberle, the problem is at what point does the risk of Kaberle not re-signing become a big factor. For me it is when anything more than Boston's 1st is included. I don't know what Chiarelli thinks about it, but I am hoping he looks at it like I do.

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01-17-2011, 12:33 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by BRUINS FREAK View Post
So much talk about how many point Wheeler has. Bruins are defensive team + Wheeler gets little to zero PP time. He is a good solid winger, plays both ends of the ice.

He does not get much opprotuntiy because of how deep the Bruins are. In TO, I'm sure he'd be one of their best wingers.

Sorry, I just don't like the points factor... you must look at the players situation as well.

Does this mean Clarke McArthur is better than anyone on the Bruins roster.

Come on
he's better than wheeler

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01-17-2011, 12:34 PM
  #116
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and that is why he is still a maple leaf
I would think Sens fans can appreciate Kaberle's body of work more than most.

From the battle's of Ontario to the playoff matches Sens fans should be able to appreciate Kaberle as one of the premier PMD and a guy that can step up in the playoffs.

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01-17-2011, 12:36 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by 93gilmour93 View Post
POS NAME Team GP G A PTS +/- PPG SHG GWG PIM SHOTS PCT ATOI
D Nicklas Lidstrom DET 45 11 31 42 -1 6 0 1 12 97 11.34 23:50
D Dustin Byfuglien ATL 47 16 25 41 5 6 0 6 45 194 8.25 22:46
D Tobias Enstrom ATL 47 8 32 40 2 5 0 0 28 68 11.76 24:19
D Kris Letang PIT 46 7 33 40 21 3 0 2 54 139 5.04 23:45
D Lubomir Visnovsky ANA 47 8 31 39 6 1 0 1 16 84 9.52 24:25
D Keith Yandle PHX 45 7 28 35 4 2 0 0 40 114 6.14 24:20
D Jack Johnson LA 44 4 28 32 -6 3 0 0 36 83 4.82 24:26
D Brian Rafalski DET 34 4 27 31 16 0 0 0 14 56 7.14 20:22
D John-Michael Liles COL 45 5 26 31 11 2 0 0 25 102 4.90 22:16
D James Wisniewski MTL 40 5 25 30 -17 4 0 1 22 90 5.56 23:13
D Dan Boyle SJ 46 5 25 30 -12 4 0 1 36 133 3.76 27:00
D Tomas Kaberle TOR 44 1 28 29 -3 0 0 1 2 79 1.27 22:49 D Shea Weber NAS 45 8 20 28 7 2 1 1 38 145 5.52 24:55
D Ryan Whitney EDM 35 2 25 27 13 0 0 0 33 43 4.65 25:20
D Jordan Leopold BUF 44 10 16 26 -5 3 0 0 22 83 12

this is the top 15 scoring d-men in the league. kabs is 12th playing for the leafs and you would have to say that if he played on a contender his totals would be higher. wheeler for kabs is a joke of a offer.
See that dude 2 spaces above Kaberle in your list there? Yea, he went for a 2nd rounder. Oh, and he put up those numbers playing for the Islanders.

What was your point again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by birddog View Post
I would think Sens fans can appreciate Kaberle's body of work more than most.

From the battle's of Ontario to the playoff matches Sens fans should be able to appreciate Kaberle as one of the premier PMD and a guy that can step up in the playoffs.
The what? It's been almost a decade since Kaberle was near the playoffs.

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01-17-2011, 12:36 PM
  #118
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Kabs has said he wants to play his career with one team.

Wheeler or nothing is an unfair assumption - you are ass-u-mi-ng that there are no better options out there.

There isn't a Leaf fan out there that wouldn't rather resign Kabs for 4 more years versus 10 more with Wheeler. Wheeler is projecting to a 37 point season - 37 points isn't hard to find out there.
I'm not really assuming anything other than if the Leafs don't want to re-sign Kaberle, getting a useful player back is a lot better than nothing. It could be Wheeler, it could be someone else, it could be a draft pick or a prospect. Something is better than nothing, I didn't mean it to sound like Wheeler is the only option because I think there are a few teams who would give up something for Kaberle, maybe not as much as Leaf fans want to see, but something worthwhile.

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01-17-2011, 12:37 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by 93gilmour93 View Post
he's better than wheeler
And costs half the price.

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01-17-2011, 12:37 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
I would think Sens fans can appreciate Kaberle's body of work more than most.

From the battle's of Ontario to the playoff matches Sens fans should be able to appreciate Kaberle as one of the premier PMD and a guy that can step up in the playoffs.
kaberle would be leading the sens in points right now

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01-17-2011, 12:38 PM
  #121
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Man....
It went from Jeff Carter to Blake Wheeler...

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01-17-2011, 12:40 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by BRUINS FREAK View Post
So much talk about how many point Wheeler has. Bruins are defensive team + Wheeler gets little to zero PP time. He is a good solid winger, plays both ends of the ice.

He does not get much opprotuntiy because of how deep the Bruins are. In TO, I'm sure he'd be one of their best wingers.

Sorry, I just don't like the points factor... you must look at the players situation as well.

Does this mean Clarke McArthur is better than anyone on the Bruins roster.

Come on
That's not the impression most other fans have of the Bruins. Without ruffling feathers my impression is a team that struggles somewhat to move the puck and gives up 33+ shots per game - 3rd worst in the entire league. But Tim Thomas stands on his head as we've seen many a night. Great goaltending can make up for a lot of deficiencies.

Tim Thomas has a 943 save % - put Wheeler on the Leafs where the save % is 880 - and you'll turn him into a not so solid defensive player. I've watched the Leafs outplay the Bruins in some games by a fair margin and Tim Thomas steal the victory.

If you want to send Timmy our way we can talk but Wheeler is not the answer to Toronto's defensive woes.

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01-17-2011, 12:43 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
See that dude 2 spaces above Kaberle in your list there? Yea, he went for a 2nd rounder. Oh, and he put up those numbers playing for the Islanders.

What was your point again?



The what? It's been almost a decade since Kaberle was near the playoffs.
Wisniewski was a perennial 20-point player before this season. And that's being generous.

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01-17-2011, 12:46 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrMitchell* View Post
Hamill - BUST
Colborne - Why would you be willing to trade him?
Caron - ^^
Wheeler - Tweener, won't have a long career
Ryder - overpaid and just isn't very good
Bodnarchuk - who?
Penner - who?
Sauve - who?
Arniel - who?


If you want somebody better than Kaberle I can promise that unless you're putting in Toronto's First and going after a team that needs offense (Nashville, St. Louis, etc.) you will not be getting what you think.
Andrew Bodnarchuk I seen him play tons of times when he was on the Halifax Mooseheads back then he was a good 2 way Defenseman not sure if he still is. I think he will turn out to be a solid #5/6 when he is ready for the NHL. If he plays like he did in Halifax

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01-17-2011, 12:46 PM
  #125
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See that dude 2 spaces above Kaberle in your list there? Yea, he went for a 2nd rounder. Oh, and he put up those numbers playing for the Islanders.

What was your point again?



The what? It's been almost a decade since Kaberle was near the playoffs.
Check your stats before spouting off. James has put up 9 points in 8 games with the Habs. He only had 21 points with the Islanders and was a -18.

He also hasn't been doing it for 10 years his previous career high is 30 points. Kabele's career high is 67 points. And he's on pace for 56 this year - a pace he's picked up the last month.

So again what's your point?

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