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Old
01-18-2011, 12:30 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Tallinder is not and will never be a top pairing d-man. He's been awful for NJ this season. He's -21, second to only Kovulchuk.

He has 3 years left at 3.3 and change a year. Thats 33, 34, 35. His play will not be getting better from this year, its going to go down.

Plenty of better d-man available. And Tailinder might better the team THIS year, but he certainly won't make it better next. Plenty of UFA d-men available. No need to pick up a bad contract because he played well with Myers.

Buffalo needs to find a d-man who can play with Myers as he starts to get into the 25-27 minute range. That's not Taillinder.

Hank was part of the problem in Buffalo, not part of the solution.
Good teams make any trade that makes their team better, especially if it doesn't involve dipping into assets.

Tallinder HAS been a top-pairing defenseman. Right now, our choices are Sekera, Leopold and Morrisonn. He is better than all of them at that role.

Getting Tallinder doesn't preclude them from picking up a better defenseman. Also, finding a top-pairing defenseman [for Myers] via trade or the UFA market is usually a long-shot.

**** this "contract is too long" stuff, make moves that make the team better in the very near future.

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01-18-2011, 12:32 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Tallinder is not and will never be a top pairing d-man. He's been awful for NJ this season. He's -21, second to only Kovulchuk.

He has 3 years left at 3.3 and change a year. Thats 33, 34, 35. His play will not be getting better from this year, its going to go down.

Plenty of better d-man available. And Tailinder might better the team THIS year, but he certainly won't make it better next. Plenty of UFA d-men available. No need to pick up a bad contract because he played well with Myers.

Buffalo needs to find a d-man who can play with Myers as he starts to get into the 25-27 minute range. That's not Taillinder.

Hank was part of the problem in Buffalo, not part of the solution.
I'm not saying I want Tallinder back in Buffalo, but in the last few New Jersey games I've watched, Tallinder has been paired with either Mark Fraser or Colin White, and both have been really bad. Last game against the Islanders Fraser had like 3 blatant giveaways, one of which immediately led to an Isles goal.

From what I've seen of Tallinder this year, he does look worse, but his +/- rating makes him look a lot worse than he really has been. He's been below average, that's it.

I still don't want him back on the Sabres though. I just don't like his style of play. He's too laid back, does too much reaching for the puck instead of skating to it, and isn't physical enough for the kind of body and skating ability he has. He isn't the kind of player who raises the level of his game when we need him to most, and we already have enough players like that on this team.

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01-18-2011, 12:42 PM
  #28
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Why? He's not the ideal partner for Myers because of how soft he is and if he isn't playing shutdown minutes, isn't good enough offensively to thrive behind a shutdown pairing like Leopold has. At that point, he's a bottom pairing guy.

The only way I'd trade for Tallinder is if Leopold gets traded.

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01-18-2011, 12:54 PM
  #29
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Regier won't make this deal. He didn't re-sign Tallinder because of the length of the contract issue. And I don't believe anything has happened this season to change his opinion one iota.

Personally, I'd be tempted. But at the end of the day I'd probably pass and try and get another defenseman in UFA that would be better than Tallinder.

Basically, I see Rivet's expiring contract as more valuable for the Sabres in 2011-12 than acquiring Tallinder.

And if I were the GM this year, I'd be in a selling mood as opposed to buying.

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01-18-2011, 12:59 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Tallinder is not and will never be a top pairing d-man. He's been awful for NJ this season. He's -21, second to only Kovulchuk.

He has 3 years left at 3.3 and change a year. Thats 33, 34, 35. His play will not be getting better from this year, its going to go down.

Plenty of better d-man available. And Tailinder might better the team THIS year, but he certainly won't make it better next. Plenty of UFA d-men available. No need to pick up a bad contract because he played well with Myers.

Buffalo needs to find a d-man who can play with Myers as he starts to get into the 25-27 minute range. That's not Taillinder.

Hank was part of the problem in Buffalo, not part of the solution.
Thats my thinking as well.


Assuming Pegula would be more aggressive in the UFA market.

There are some nice dmen to target that are under 30;

Name(age)salary/cap hit (current team)

-Erhoff (28) 3.4mil/3.1mil (Van)
-Bieksa (29) 3.5mil/3.75mil (Van)
-White (26) 2.99mil (Car)
-Wizniewski (26) 3.25mil (Mon)
-Greene (28) 750k/737k (NJD)
-Stuart (26) 1.675mil (Bos)
-Ericsson (26) 1.25mil/900k (Det)

Some over 30 dmen worth a look;

-Hannan (31) 4.5mil (Wash)
-Kaberle (32) 4.25mil (Tor)
-Brewer (31) 4.5mil/4.25mil (St.L)
-Philips (32) 3.5mil (Ott)

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01-18-2011, 01:13 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Thats my thinking as well.


Assuming Pegula would be more aggressive in the UFA market.

There are some nice dmen to target that are under 30;

Name(age)salary/cap hit (current team)

-Erhoff (28) 3.4mil/3.1mil (Van)
-Bieksa (29) 3.5mil/3.75mil (Van)
-White (26) 2.99mil (Car)
-Wizniewski (26) 3.25mil (Mon)
-Greene (28) 750k/737k (NJD)
-Stuart (26) 1.675mil (Bos)
-Ericsson (26) 1.25mil/900k (Det)

Some over 30 dmen worth a look;

-Hannan (31) 4.5mil (Wash)
-Kaberle (32) 4.25mil (Tor)
-Brewer (31) 4.5mil/4.25mil (St.L)
-Philips (32) 3.5mil (Ott)
The two bolded are the two guys I would heavily target, in terms of finding the long term partner for Myers. I can't imagine Detroit letting Ericcson get away. He's in the perfect spot, being groomed by his idol.

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01-18-2011, 01:17 PM
  #32
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Ericsson would be fantastic but yeah, I don't see Detroit letting him go.

Jan Hejda is another option that Josh omitted. Had a ridiculous run under Hitch from 2007-2009 (+20 in back to back in a shutdown role on a bad team), but has fallen out of favor with coaching changes. If his breakout pass is remotely good, he'd be my first pick to add to the D.

Ian White would also be a good upgrade over Montador.

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01-18-2011, 01:22 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
The two bolded are the two guys I would heavily target, in terms of finding the long term partner for Myers. I can't imagine Detroit letting Ericcson get away. He's in the perfect spot, being groomed by his idol.
I can't imagine them letting Ericsson go either.

As an aside, even at 40yrs old Lidstrom is close to a point per game (45gms 11g 31a 42pts) playing 23+min a night. What an unbelievable player.



I would really like to get Erhoff as well. But like Ericsson, I can't see his team letting him go.

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01-18-2011, 01:25 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Ericsson would be fantastic but yeah, I don't see Detroit letting him go.

Jan Hejda is another option that Josh omitted. Had a ridiculous run under Hitch from 2007-2009 (+20 in back to back in a shutdown role on a bad team), but has fallen out of favor with coaching changes. If his breakout pass is remotely good, he'd be my first pick to add to the D.

Ian White would also be a good upgrade over Montador.
Last year's Ian White? Yes. This year's Ian White? Not so much. He's making $3 mil this season, and I can't see him or his agent accepting a paycut, especially when White will only be 27. I'm not sure I'd want him for $3.5-$3.7.

Not talking about being a top-pairing defenseman, but I'd look hard at Sarich if Calgary is selling low on him. Sarich makes $3.3 next year and has a cap hit of $3.6. Next season is the last on his deal. If the Flames would take Butler and a 3rd, I'd think long and hard about it. He'd improve the PK and his shot-blocking skills would start replacing the void left by Lydman.

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01-18-2011, 01:37 PM
  #35
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Last year's Ian White? Yes. This year's Ian White? Not so much. He's making $3 mil this season, and I can't see him or his agent accepting a paycut, especially when White will only be 27. I'm not sure I'd want him for $3.5-$3.7.

Not talking about being a top-pairing defenseman, but I'd look hard at Sarich if Calgary is selling low on him. Sarich makes $3.3 next year and has a cap hit of $3.6. Next season is the last on his deal. If the Flames would take Butler and a 3rd, I'd think long and hard about it. He'd improve the PK and his shot-blocking skills would start replacing the void left by Lydman.
Well yeah, he's having a down year, but I think that his past two seasons are more indicative of his potential than what he's doing this year. I'm obviously not picking him up if there's a high probability that his current play continues.

And I know I just said I don't want to spend a 3+ on a bottom pairing defenseman with Tallinder, but I think Sarich would be an awesome mentor for Weber and could show Myers a thing or two as well. If we could get rid of Butler and ShaMo, I'd take on Sarich's deal for another year.

Also, the fact that the free agent forwards are absolutely terrible this year make me much more willing to spend on defensemen in the short term.

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01-18-2011, 01:38 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Ericsson would be fantastic but yeah, I don't see Detroit letting him go.

Jan Hejda is another option that Josh omitted. Had a ridiculous run under Hitch from 2007-2009 (+20 in back to back in a shutdown role on a bad team), but has fallen out of favor with coaching changes. If his breakout pass is remotely good, he'd be my first pick to add to the D.

Ian White would also be a good upgrade over Montador.
I wouldn't mind Jan Hejda for a 2nd/3rd pairing depth guy. But certainly not a top pairing guy. We need Myers to get to the 25-27 minutes a night. It's going to cost some money to get, you can't simply go find a reclamation project and hope they can magically handle the minutes.

Pronger had MacInnis. Chara had Redden/Phillips. Scott Niedermayer had Stevens. We need to find a legit 1B to help Myers develop into the annual Norris trophy candidate we hope we can become. Ehrhoff isn't a bad option, but he is playing on a deep D and getting 22-23 minutes a night.

Pitkanen might not a bad target as he is logging some serious minutes in Carolina. Though, I doubt they let him hit the market.

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01-18-2011, 01:39 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Last year's Ian White? Yes. This year's Ian White? Not so much. He's making $3 mil this season, and I can't see him or his agent accepting a paycut, especially when White will only be 27. I'm not sure I'd want him for $3.5-$3.7.

Not talking about being a top-pairing defenseman, but I'd look hard at Sarich if Calgary is selling low on him. Sarich makes $3.3 next year and has a cap hit of $3.6. Next season is the last on his deal. If the Flames would take Butler and a 3rd, I'd think long and hard about it. He'd improve the PK and his shot-blocking skills would start replacing the void left by Lydman.
Fair points.

I think his previous 2 seasons (08-09 and 09-10) are more indicative of the player he can be as opposed to this past season.


08-09 - 71gms 10g 16a 26pts +6 (22:51 atoi)
09-10 - 83gms 13g 25a 38pts +8 (20-23+min atoi) (56gms Toronto/27gms Calagary)


3.5+mil per for a 10g 30pts dman thats solid defensively isn't out of whack.


White isn't a top target for me but he would be a nice upgrade from Monty IMO.

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01-18-2011, 01:44 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Favorably comparing Tallinder in transition to Pronger is laughably overrating Tallinder.

I don't want him playing with Myers. I'd much rather sign Hejda, trade for Beauchemin, etc, etc, etc to cover for that role. If he's not with Myers, he doesn't have the offense to offset a shutdown pairing. At that point, Hank becomes a 3+ million bottom pairing defenseman.
Well...when the asking price is a $3.5 million pressbox defenseman...

I agree though, trading for Hank isn't a very good idea. Better to stay the course and develop the plethora of defensemen we already have. If Hank was signed for another year beyond this one it would be a no-brainer to make the deal, but with three more years to go that's a negative Ghost Rider.

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01-18-2011, 01:47 PM
  #39
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Better off throwing big offers at Ehrhoff, Pitkanen or even Kaberle.

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01-18-2011, 02:10 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
I wouldn't mind Jan Hejda for a 2nd/3rd pairing depth guy. But certainly not a top pairing guy. We need Myers to get to the 25-27 minutes a night. It's going to cost some money to get, you can't simply go find a reclamation project and hope they can magically handle the minutes.

Pronger had MacInnis. Chara had Redden/Phillips. Scott Niedermayer had Stevens. We need to find a legit 1B to help Myers develop into the annual Norris trophy candidate we hope we can become. Ehrhoff isn't a bad option, but he is playing on a deep D and getting 22-23 minutes a night.

Pitkanen might not a bad target as he is logging some serious minutes in Carolina. Though, I doubt they let him hit the market.
I guess I haven't made my overall plan for the defense clear. I want to get a partner for Myers of the Hejda/Beauchemin/Lydman/Scuderi variety, and then back that pairing with a quality PMD who can eat ES minutes.

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01-18-2011, 02:18 PM
  #41
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I guess I haven't made my overall plan for the defense clear. I want to get a partner for Myers of the Hejda/Beauchemin/Lydman/Scuderi variety, and then back that pairing with a quality PMD who can eat ES minutes.
Could Sekera eventually be that player?

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01-18-2011, 02:27 PM
  #42
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Decent proposal, but hell no .

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01-18-2011, 02:29 PM
  #43
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I guess I haven't made my overall plan for the defense clear. I want to get a partner for Myers of the Hejda/Beauchemin/Lydman/Scuderi variety, and then back that pairing with a quality PMD who can eat ES minutes.
PMD ?

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01-18-2011, 02:31 PM
  #44
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PMD ?
Puck Moving Defenseman probably.

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01-18-2011, 02:38 PM
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Puck Moving Defenseman probably.
Ahh that makes sense.

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01-18-2011, 02:41 PM
  #46
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Could Sekera eventually be that player?
Which? The shutdown guy or the PMD? I don't like that he looks to jump into the play even more than Myers does, which cuts down on Myers' rushes and I don't think he has the offensive acumen to be that PMD.

I wouldn't be against trading him if the return is good, especially considering his value will be pretty high, but I also wouldn't be in a rush to move him. At the very least, he chills with Weber and they get their chemistry back and form a really high +/- bottom pairing that gives the team great depth.

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01-18-2011, 03:01 PM
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Which? The shutdown guy or the PMD? I don't like that he looks to jump into the play even more than Myers does, which cuts down on Myers' rushes and I don't think he has the offensive acumen to be that PMD.

I wouldn't be against trading him if the return is good, especially considering his value will be pretty high, but I also wouldn't be in a rush to move him. At the very least, he chills with Weber and they get their chemistry back and form a really high +/- bottom pairing that gives the team great depth.
the second pairing PMD.

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01-18-2011, 03:07 PM
  #48
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It'll be almost impossible to get any of the potential UFA defensemen listed, even with a new owner. Buffalo isn't a very popular destination for UFAs. Maybe Kaberle would consider, but he might be the most valuable UFA this summer, so it's doubtful.

I think the only defensemen currently in the line-up that we should stick with are Myers, Sekera, Weber and Leopold. Montador is way too inconsistent, Butler doesn't have any stand-out qualities that make him a difference maker, and Morrisonn is too slow and while physical, not good enough positionally to stay in the top 6. The only defensemen in Portland who seems like he could realistically compete for a top 6 spot next season is Schiestel, maybe Gragnani too if we don't sign anyone in the off-season.

Bottom line, we NEED a guy like Ehrhoff, Pitkanen or Kaberle. We need a legit #2 (close to #1) defensemen, we can't completely rely on Myers. I would love to sign a guy like Ericsson, but it's not happening. And all of the other guys wouldn't be good enough to upgrade our defense core to what it is now IMO.

I think Kaberle would be perfect paired with Myers. He's left-handed, similar skater to Tallinder, and has a great break-out pass but doesn't rush the puck up the ice himself a lot. He's underrated defensively, and could carry the offensive load on the back-end if things aren't working for Myers. I wouldn't worry too much about getting Myers a physical partner, Tyler is becoming more of a physical force himself.

Of course this would probably bump Sekera down to the third pair, with Leopold being the offensive player on the second pair already. It might hurt his confidence a bit, and it might hurt our team having so many offensive minded defensemen, but at least we'd have a solid reliable top 3 defensemen in Myers, Kaberle and Leopold.

In a fantasy, but somewhat realistic scenario, this is what I would wanna see for next year's defense core:

Tomas Kaberle - Tyler Myers
Jordan Leopold - Cory Sarich
Andrej Sekera - Mike Weber
*Drew Schiestel


Last edited by Ron Barr: 01-18-2011 at 03:18 PM.
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01-18-2011, 03:11 PM
  #49
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I wouldn't mind Jan Hejda for a 2nd/3rd pairing depth guy. But certainly not a top pairing guy. We need Myers to get to the 25-27 minutes a night. It's going to cost some money to get, you can't simply go find a reclamation project and hope they can magically handle the minutes.

Pronger had MacInnis. Chara had Redden/Phillips. Scott Niedermayer had Stevens. We need to find a legit 1B to help Myers develop into the annual Norris trophy candidate we hope we can become. Ehrhoff isn't a bad option, but he is playing on a deep D and getting 22-23 minutes a night.

Pitkanen might not a bad target as he is logging some serious minutes in Carolina. Though, I doubt they let him hit the market.
We need Myers to be as effective as possible and get the most out of his skill set.

That is accomplished by finding a partner that can;

-handle Myers' ES minutes 17+ and PK with him. Basically 20+min a night. His partner will not be playing the same mintues he does.

-be a good defensive dman that will allow Myers to do his thing. Which is to basically be an aggressive offensive force from the back end (rush the puck, jump into the rush, play low in the opposing zone, etc).

-have mobility

-would love if they were real physical but not a requirement.

Hank is an example of partner that would be good for Myers.

I'm less concerned about Myers hitting some arbitrary minute totals than I am about him finding a way to get the most out of his game.


The comments on Erhoff point to what we should be shooting for. Having well built defense. That would go a long way towards getting the most out of the top players on it.

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01-18-2011, 03:21 PM
  #50
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The comments on Erhoff point to what we should be shooting for. Having well built defense. That would go a long way towards getting the most out of the top players on it.
Ehrhoff on the Sabres is a dream of mine, but ask any Canucks fan, and they'll tell you that he isn't leaving Vancouver. Period.

The Canucks will have over $12 million in cap space this summer, and Ehrhoff is the only top player they need to re-sign. The rest of the expiring contracts are 3rd/4th line players who can be easily replaced by guys in the minors (like Cody Hodgson or Jordan Schroeder).

By the way. I'm on capgeek right now, and it says the Sabres will have almost $23 million in cap space this off-season. HOLY CRAP. Maybe this season is a good time to get a lottery pick? New owner coming up, lots of bad contracts coming to an end, tons of cap space for our new rich owner to use. It seems like the perfect time to get a top 10 pick to build around.

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