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01-20-2011, 12:03 AM
  #1
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The Sky is Not Falling.....

Despite what people claim,

If you guys want to judge the organization on a game to game basis, then yea, you are going to think the sky is falling, but the organization is in great shape to make a lasting run, and become a perennial contender, fans just need patience,

Don't believe me?

I just wrote this up for another board, if you don't want to read it, that's fine, but it took Detroit, 13-15 YEARS to become a perennial contender in the mid 90's, think about that, 13-15 YEARS.


You guys want to know why I like the direction of LA, and why I can compare them to Detroit,

Let’s start in 1980, shall we, I know, years and years ago, but don’t worry, if you pay attention, you will see.

1979-1980, Detroit finishes 4th last, with 61 points, in the June 1980 draft, they pick up 1 player of consequence Mark Osborne in the 3rd round, from June 1980 to June 1981, they make a few trades for cash but do nothing and finish 2nd last overall, but they had traded their 1st round pick, hmm Sounds like LA of the 90’s doesn’t it?

In the 1981 draft, they pick 3 players that played over 600 games, 2 that played over 200 games, a pretty successful draft, but not a player from the core that starts their dynasty, and from June 1981 – to June 1982, they made some picks for some draft picks etc, finishing 2nd last again, but had traded their 1st round pick.

In the 1982 draft they pick up 1 guy of any consequence, Murray Craven, again, sounds like LA drafting in the 90’s and from June 1982 – June 1983, they trade for cash and finish 4th last.

In the 1983 draft, they finally add a piece to the core of the dynasty years, Steve Yzerman, they also added players like, Bob Probert, Petr, Klima, Joey Kocur, not necessarily part of the teams that won, but they were solid players, had a good draft, then from June 1983 – June 1984, they made some moves to try and improve quickly, and it worked, they went from 4th last to 7th last, again, sounds like LA.

In the 1984 draft, they pick up Shawn Burr and Doug Houda, and that’s about it, again, sounds like LA drafting, then from June 1984 – June 1985, they brought in Darryl Sittler, trying to improve, and they finished 7th last,

In the 1985 draft, they pick up, more supporting players like Chiasson, McKay, etc, and from June 1985 – June 1986 they made a few minor moves, and finished DEAD LAST,

In the 1986 draft, more supporting cast, Joe Murphy, Adam Graves being the 2 most prominent figures there, and between June 1986 – June 1987 they, made a few moves to try and improve and finished 10th last.

In the 1987 draft, Yves Racine was the only player of note, and from June 1987 – June 1988, they made 2-3 minor moves and finished 16th last, made a huge leap.

In the 1988 draft, they do nothing of note, again, sounds like LA, and from June 1988-June 1989, they make 2 moves, shedding extra parts and they finish 12th last, they take a step or two back,

In the 1989 draft, they finally add pieces to the core, Lidstrom, Federov, Drake, Konstantinov, Boughner, and from June 1989 – June 1990 they added Borje Salming (think Lidstrom) they added Berine Federko, turned Graves and Klima into Jimmy Carson, whoops, and finished 3rd last, MAJOR MAJOR steps back, I am willing to bet their fans at this time, sound like you guys now.

In the 1990 draft, they added Primeau, Kozlov, York, more core guys, and from June 1990-June 1991 they traded a 2nd for McCrimmon, made some moves to try and help, but kept their core young guys, and finished 9th Last, slight improvement,

In the 1991 draft, they added Osgood, Knuble, Pushor and Lapointe, 4 core guys to their cup runs, an dfrom June 1991 – June 1992 they added Sheppard, Greg Millen, traded a few guys for cash after they finished 2nd Overall in the league, huge huge jump,

In the 1992 draft, they added Darren McCarty, etc, and from June 1992 – June 1993 they turned Kevin Miller into Dino Ciccarelli, Jimmy Carson into Paul Coffey, and finish 5th Overall in the league,

I can keep going, but by that time, the core of Yzerman, Lidstrom, Federov, Konstantinov, Primeau, Kozlov, Lapointe, Osgood, McCarty are there, and you see the transition as they turn from bottom feeders into contenders

But to recap for you,

1980 – 2nd Last
1981 – 2nd last
1982 – 4th last
1983 - 7th last
1984 – 7th last
1985 – 1st Last
1986 – 10th last
1987 – 16th last
1988 – 12th last
1989 – 3rd last
1990 – 9th last
1991 – 2nd OVERALL
1992 – 5th OVERALL
1993 – 4th OVERALL
1994 – 1st OVERALL * lock out season
1995 – 1st OVERALL
1996 – 5th OVERALL – Won Cup

That is 11 years of being crap, ELEVEN YEARS before turning into a contender again, now if I wanted to I can actually go back and call it 13 years, as the 2 years before 1980 they finished 3rd last overall and 4th last overall respectively,
Check this site out, http://nhltradeshistory.blogspot.com...s-of-1993.html
And you will see how many BIG TRADES Detroit made to turn into a perennial contender, here’s a hint, you can count them on one hand ffs.

If you want, I can show you the same freaking thing in Pittsburgh and Chicago, but hey, you like to think off the cuff.

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01-20-2011, 12:31 AM
  #2
KINGS17
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Awesome!!!

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01-20-2011, 01:16 AM
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JDM
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What if you think the sky IS falling and will come crashing down in Armageddon in about a year and 11 months? What good does 13 years do us then? Huh? HUH?!?!

Cool post. I'm a bit too tired and buzzed and hungry to fully grasp it at this moment... but I see your jive and though it makes me angry, its good jive.

My only immediate contention is that the years up to Yzerman mean squat far as I can tell. So Detroit sucked, but what were they doing to right that ship at that point? Anything of consequence to the future? Doesn't look like it. To me, it looks like 8 (I think?.. again, buzzed) years, not 13, because drafting Yzerman is the first thing on there that really leads to a turnaround.

So presumably, drafting Kopitar in 2005 is our Yzerman in '83.

If Kopitar is our Yzerman (a little more than a small leap of faith at the moment) then we are in year 6 physically (year 5 if we negate the lockout... I still think my math is way off either way...) but point being are close, within a year or two, to where Detroit broke through in '91 and placed second. (I justed counted again, its 7 dammit... 7 years from Yzerman to 2nd place). So we should be there in a year or two according to this.

So maybe its not a contention.

Either way, we are banking a lot on Kopitar for this comparison to be accurate. Detroit may have made several savvy moves, but if you take Yzerman out of it, it all falls apart in a big way. You can say the same about the Kings, in a sense, as if you took Kopi out we would crumble under our own meager weight, but as much love as I have for Kopi, which is as much as I've felt toward any player since Palffy (Telos knows I'm talking about, them's big words), but I'm not fully convinced that Kopitar can be there thriving soul of a team in the way that Yzerman was.

Our Doughty to their Lindstrom? That I still feel assured of in the long run.

Speaking of Doughty.... by this chart, Detroit gets from suck to good after two years of Lindstrom. This is year 3 of Doughty. Unfortunately that comparison falls off the mark right now.

But then again, and I promise I'll stop rambling all over the place very soon, the more I look at this chart, the more I feel two things. 1. Its asinine to compare things like this as the times, game and structure is pretty damn different and 2. Its not that asinine except that going by the key moves and changes you listed, we are a year behind finishing 2nd place.

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01-20-2011, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
What if you think the sky IS falling and will come crashing down in Armageddon in about a year and 11 months? What good does 13 years do us then? Huh? HUH?!?!

Cool post. I'm a bit too tired and buzzed and hungry to fully grasp it at this moment... but I see your jive and though it makes me angry, its good jive.

My only immediate contention is that the years up to Yzerman mean squat far as I can tell. So Detroit sucked, but what were they doing to right that ship at that point? Anything of consequence to the future? Doesn't look like it. To me, it looks like 8 (I think?.. again, buzzed) years, not 13, because drafting Yzerman is the first thing on there that really leads to a turnaround.

So presumably, drafting Kopitar in 2005 is our Yzerman in '83.

If Kopitar is our Yzerman (a little more than a small leap of faith at the moment) then we are in year 6 physically (year 5 if we negate the lockout... I still think my math is way off either way...) but point being are close, within a year or two, to where Detroit broke through in '91 and placed second. (I justed counted again, its 7 dammit... 7 years from Yzerman to 2nd place). So we should be there in a year or two according to this.

So maybe its not a contention.

Either way, we are banking a lot on Kopitar for this comparison to be accurate. Detroit may have made several savvy moves, but if you take Yzerman out of it, it all falls apart in a big way. You can say the same about the Kings, in a sense, as if you took Kopi out we would crumble under our own meager weight, but as much love as I have for Kopi, which is as much as I've felt toward any player since Palffy (Telos knows I'm talking about, them's big words), but I'm not fully convinced that Kopitar can be there thriving soul of a team in the way that Yzerman was.

Our Doughty to their Lindstrom? That I still feel assured of in the long run.

Speaking of Doughty.... by this chart, Detroit gets from suck to good after two years of Lindstrom. This is year 3 of Doughty. Unfortunately that comparison falls off the mark right now.

But then again, and I promise I'll stop rambling all over the place very soon, the more I look at this chart, the more I feel two things. 1. Its asinine to compare things like this as the times, game and structure is pretty damn different and 2. Its not that asinine except that going by the key moves and changes you listed, we are a year behind finishing 2nd place.
With the right moves and acquistions, we should be, the problem is some fans go game to game and don't see the big picture,

The years before Yzerman they count, how could they not, they were doing the same thing that LA was doing, bringing in players to try and win now and not caring about the future, that slightly changed when Yzerman was brought in, and changed when they started making strides and culminated when they matched Carolina's offer for Federov and kept the young players together, not soon after they added Holmstrom to the mix as well etc,

LA will get there, DL's era in LA is the FIRST TIME LA has tried to rebuild from the ground up and actually stuck to it, and it still took 2 years for him to actually start it.

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01-20-2011, 01:32 AM
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Brightens me up a little. Again, new time, new game changing the way the dynasty process goes. Is there a site for how many coaches Detroit had in that span?

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01-20-2011, 01:33 AM
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Brightens me up a little. Again, new time, new game changing the way the dynasty process goes. Is there a site for how many coaches Detroit had in that span?
LOL I could probably find it, but I believe they only had one GM until Holland came along,

Jimmy Devellano ran the team and did it right and look at what happened...

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01-20-2011, 01:38 AM
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Outstanding post, but it's going to not make a difference to the People that simply want Dean and TM gone.

They don't care what happens just as long as TM and Dean are fired.

The funny part is, AEG would most likely hire two more people they despise or would not like. Thus the cycle would continue.

In short they are never going to be satisfied.

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01-20-2011, 08:22 AM
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In short they are never going to be satisfied.
Exactamundo! I left this site a long time ago for that very reason.

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01-20-2011, 08:50 AM
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Mr Irreverent
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So we got 7-8 more years of kaka?

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01-20-2011, 09:35 AM
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hauspaint
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Exactamundo! I left this site a long time ago for that very reason.
welcome back.

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01-20-2011, 09:45 AM
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So we got 7-8 more years of kaka?
I tend to see it as we have a couple of more seasons of the kids learning how to really contend, and then 5-6 years of it could happen at any time depending on the breaks and how the puck bounces in the playoffs.

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01-20-2011, 09:49 AM
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Exactamundo! I left this site a long time ago for that very reason.
THAT'S A LONG DISTANCE CALL, DOUG!

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01-20-2011, 09:53 AM
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Mr Irreverent
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I tend to see it as we have a couple of more seasons of the kids learning how to really contend, and then 5-6 years of it could happen at any time depending on the breaks and how the puck bounces in the playoffs.
I kind of knew this team wouldn't be a real contender until they developed a legit #2 center. IMO Brayden Schenn can be a better center than Kopitar.

We need to figure out what we're going to do with players like Loktionov, Moller and Hickey.

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01-20-2011, 10:03 AM
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What was the FA age? How many dynasties existed back then? How many exist now? How many back-to-back champs has their been since the lockout?

Completely different era.


Detroit Coaches:

1980 Maxner
1981 Maxner
1982 Maxner - Dea - Polano
1983 Polano
1984 Polano
1985 Polano - Neale
1986 Park - Demers
1987 Demers
1988 Demers
1989 Demers
1990 Demers - Murray
1991 Murray
1992 Murray
1993 Murray - Bowman
1994 Bowman
1995 Bowman
1996 Bowman

When do the Kings get their "Bowman"? Or do you think that Murray is the Bowman of the Kings?

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01-20-2011, 10:16 AM
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News flash: We've already been bad for YEARS!

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01-20-2011, 10:17 AM
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Kopitar is our Gasol. Alone he's good we get a Kobe and he's a star. Kopitar cannot carry the load. I'm not sure if Kovi was that person but NJ owner screwed it up for both teams. If were the Lakers top FA wants to come to LA but they think of us as the Clippers. As everyone has said and even management knows this, we are one sniper away from contending for the cup.

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01-20-2011, 10:33 AM
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Kopitar is our Gasol. Alone he's good we get a Kobe and he's a star. Kopitar cannot carry the load. I'm not sure if Kovi was that person but NJ owner screwed it up for both teams. If were the Lakers top FA wants to come to LA but they think of us as the Clippers. As everyone has said and even management knows this, we are one sniper away from contending for the cup.
The Lakers also have their Bowman in Phil Jackson.

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01-20-2011, 10:33 AM
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Looking at Kool-Aide on the table. Reaching out. reaching.

LA management has said many times that Detroit is the team to copy. However it seems like they are coping the Flyers. I still think LA is a couple of years away from a player taking a discount to come to LA.

I am still hoping they can turn this year around. I worry that come the trade deadline there will be a fire sale in LA. Getting a winger for the first line would be do wonders, however who can they get for nothing?

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01-20-2011, 10:49 AM
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Kopitar is our Gasol. Alone he's good we get a Kobe and he's a star. Kopitar cannot carry the load. I'm not sure if Kovi was that person but NJ owner screwed it up for both teams. If were the Lakers top FA wants to come to LA but they think of us as the Clippers. As everyone has said and even management knows this, we are one sniper away from contending for the cup.
But why can't Kopitar be Kobe Bryant?

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01-20-2011, 10:55 AM
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But why can't Kopitar be Kobe Bryant?
Even if he was, it wouldn't guarantee anything. We had Wayne ****ing Gretzky. Basketball is a much different sport, where your key guys are on the court most of the game, rather than in hockey where everyone is on the ice in short shifts.

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01-20-2011, 11:20 AM
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What was the FA age? How many dynasties existed back then? How many exist now? How many back-to-back champs has their been since the lockout?
100% correct. Comparing the NHL today to the 80's and 90's is absolutely ridiculous. The NHL both on the ice and off the ice was forever changed with the new CBA. The days of having a roster full of sandpaper players and a strong defensive system and trying to win games 2-1 are over, unfortunately that memo hasn't reached our coach or GM.

Also, please call me when Dean Lombardi drafts the greatest defenseman of his era, an NHL MVP, and another Hall of Fame caliber player in the same draft. To go along with the hall of fame center you already had.

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01-20-2011, 12:33 PM
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KINGS17
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But why can't Kopitar be Kobe Bryant?
I am not a Bryant fan by any stretch of the imagination, but do you see in Kopitar the sheer will that Bryant has to dominate a game?

It takes more than just skill.

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01-20-2011, 12:47 PM
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You didn't account for one factor:

Prior to 1989, players from the Soviet Union were not allowed to leave to play in the NHL. In order to play in the NHL, they had to defect. Starting with the 1989 draft, Detroit took a chance that most other NHL teams wouldn't take and started drafting Russian players. One of the first drafted was Sergei Fedorov. As he adjusted to the North American game and the team, Detroit came to see that this was the new reality and started acquiring other older Russian players who all played well together.

Obviously players like Yzerman were crucial to their success, but the immediate jump in the standings corresponds perfectly to the "Soviet invasion"

http://business.highbeam.com/4341/ar...shaking-up-nhl

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01-20-2011, 01:19 PM
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If you guys want to judge the organization on a game to game basis, then yea, you are going to think the sky is falling, but the organization is in great shape to make a lasting run, and become a perennial contender, fans just need patience
... OK, first off - I'm gonna have a hard time in all the years I've been reading and writing to Kings' message boards to find a statement more humorous than "fans just need patience." You DO know you're on a Kings' fan message board, right?

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I just wrote this up for another board, if you don't want to read it, that's fine, but it took Detroit, 13-15 YEARS to become a perennial contender in the mid 90's, think about that, 13-15 YEARS.
... Alright, props go to you for the write up - I'm sure that took some research, and it was a thorough post. The problem is, I don't think that your explanations lend themselves to complete understanding or a true comparison with what's going on here and now with the Kings. If you want to use Detroit's history as a barometer, that's fine - but here's how I would go about explaining things.

Let's say, hypothetically, the Kings miss the playoffs this season. That would be four out of five seasons of missing the playoffs under Lombardi's direction - enough, in my mind, for Dean to be fired. Let's see how that compares to what Detroit did with their general managers, based on the success (or lack of success) the team had.

The "Dead Things" era started with Sid Abel as GM. Abel was the GM for almost 9 years - from 1962 to '71. The Wings made the playoffs during the first four years of his tenure. After that, Detroit missed the playoffs three straight seasons. In '70, the Wings were back in, but in '71 - with the Wings on their way to missing the playoffs for the fourth time in five seasons, Abel was let go as GM and worked for the Wings as a color commentator.

The next Detroit GM was Ned Harkness. The Wings, under his direction, missed the playoffs every season from '71 to '74, and Harkness was fired. Longtime fans still remember this period in Detroit's history as the "Darkness with Harkness" era.

The great Red Wing of the past, Al Delvecchio, was next in line. As GM, Delvecchio's teams missed the playoffs for three straight seasons: '75, '76, and '77. Delvecchio was let go and went into business outside of hockey thereafter.

Ted Lindsay, another Wings' star of the past, was next. In his first season as GM, 77-78, the Wings went to the playoffs, and Lindsay was voted Executive of the Year. However, Detroit missed the playoffs the next two seasons, and Lindsay was canned.

Another Red Wing out of the past, Jimmy Skinner, was the next GM - hired before the 80-81 season. Detroit missed the playoffs in '81 and '82. Bye bye, Mr. Skinner.

This brings us to Jim "Jimmy D" Devellano - hired in the offseason of 1982. Devellano took over a Wings' team that finished 21-47-12 the season before. By comparison, the Kings were 42-35-5 before Lombardi took over.

Devellano, nevertheless, had the Wings back in the playoffs in 1984, his second season. Detroit went back to the playoffs in '85. In both seasons, Detroit was fortunate to make the postseason. Then, the team was terrible in '86. Devellano was on the hot seat.

Here's an excerpt from Devellano's book:



In his fifth season, with the pressure on, Devellano's Red Wings went to the Campbell Conference finals. The next season, they did it again. This is the point I consider to be the beginning of the Red Wings' era of success. The Wings' just missed the playoffs in '90, but made the playoffs every season thereafter.

Point being, it's OK to build for the future - that's what Devellano was doing, of course. But he HAD to make something happen for the present as well. If Devellano had not brought home some success in that fifth season, he likely would have gone the route of Sid Abel and Ned Harkness. I don't think that patience on the fans' part is the issue here. I think it's a case where if people are gonna hold the players on the team accountable during times of struggle, it's only fair to hold the GM and the coach accountable, too.

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01-20-2011, 01:23 PM
  #25
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I am not a Bryant fan by any stretch of the imagination, but do you see in Kopitar the sheer will that Bryant has to dominate a game?

It takes more than just skill.
... Yeah, it takes a supporting cast that included Shaquille O'Neal for the first championship run, and Pao Gasol and Lamar Odom for the second run.

It's pretty easy to be looked upon as a character player when you have star players beside you. See: Getzlaf, Ryan and Toews, Jonathan.

Kopitar doesn't really have anyone on the hockey club with his level of talent, and thus does not look as great as he could look if he did. Is that his fault?

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