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Will MLS eventually surpass the NHL in revenue?

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Old
01-21-2011, 12:18 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
While Bettman is far from perfect and has made his share of mistakes, I find it hilarious how vilified he is around here.

"Buttman"? What are you, 12?

Fact is, Bettmas has done a pretty good job managing the financial affairs of the league. If he weren't, there's no way the Board of Governors would have kept him around this long.
Definitely.

I really don't understand the irrational hate for Bettman.

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01-21-2011, 06:04 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by getty images View Post
You of all people should know if the MLS does pass the NHL it will be because of Bettman....


Anything can happen.
I have no love for Bettman, but we're talking soccer here, the one sport that Canadians and Americans are united on...it's boring....

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01-22-2011, 02:00 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
is that for non-designated players or is that counting the Beckhams and Henry's of the world and their side deals? alot of MLS players make peanuts for professional athletes playing a relatively long season.

I think the growth potential is WAY limited because there's far better products out there in that particular sport. and they'll end up overextending themselves.
Here's the top 50 paid players.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Major-League...010-The-Top-50

This shows the salaries of all the players

http://www.altiusdirectory.com/Sports/mls-salaries.php

This article mentions the average of $115,000 in 2007 which of course has gone up.

http://www.ehow.com/about_7410220_av...r-players.html

It also mentions that the average is highly distorted due to the large amounts made by players who signed lucrative contracts, in other words the designated players. If we just included the non-designated players, I did not come across anything that stated the average salary for them. I'll just take a wild stab at it and say in the $50,000-$75,000 range. Not very much I know.

I agree with you about the limited growth due to access to a better product overseas through tv socer packages. Still it will be interesting what kind of growth we will see in overall revenues over the next decade....

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01-22-2011, 02:07 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Kitsune View Post
Just because expansion teams are going for 40m right now doesnt mean much. It could very well be these expansion teams are going for that much to help the MLS cover past loses, and help build a fund for any future loses. Also, the overall talent is not that great - and the quick expansion of the league is going to further water the talent down, which may not bode well for some teams. Atleast there exceeding in areas where the old NASL where not - mainly higher expansion fees and dedicated stadiums. Remove those two factors, and theres an erie similarity between the MSL and the NASL right now.
I believe this fact cannot be emphasized enough. Having control over all the revenues in your stadium including parking, concessions, corporate suites and advertising, not to mention concerts which several stadiums have been designed for) can make the difference between breaking even and losing millions. In the old NASL, most of the teams played in NFL stadiums and did not, as far as I can tell, have control over any of these revenue streams.

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01-22-2011, 02:09 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Vic Rattlehead View Post
Definitely.

I really don't understand the irrational hate for Bettman.
I understand the hatred directed towards Bettman....but I don't understand the childish behaviour of name-calling.

"Buttman" is the biggest......but when talking about the Phoenix case the "Bald Silly" stuff comes up.

I really am not sure if I would give Gary Bettman the time of day....but I will always call him Bettman and even capitalize his name. I sort of expect that maturity from other posters....but I don't see it. I let it go most of the time.....but..like you said, it does really show the maturity of the poster.

If you want me to rationalize my hate for Bettman....let me know.

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01-22-2011, 02:22 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by babyshamble View Post
I thinks the biggest problem MLS will have is that the level of soccer is not even close to the soccer being played in the rest of the world. MLS will never be able to atract real world class players only old stars looking for a fun place to retire. This will make the league hard to market towards the regular sportsfan especially when you are competing against the other pro sports-leagues in the US wich all feature world class talent. The regular soccerfan will always prefer European soccer simply because its that much better.

The other thing is that the MLS is taking an "American approach" to a gloal sport. With the salary cap and draft and all of that, they will never be able to compete with other countries.
AS far as the level of soccer goes, a soccer writer for the newspaper in my city criticized fans for calling the MLS "garbage soccer" and stated that the soccer played in the league would be comparable to the soccer in the Championship League (tier 2 soccer in England just below the Premier League). That's fairly high praise considering England has the best soccer in the world. I'm willing to take his word for it since he reports on European and international soccer on a regular basis.

YOu never know. A few years from now whose to say the owners in the league won't pool together their money and bring in a huge international soccer star in his prime to boost the profile of the MLS. It happened in the WHA when Bobby Hull signed with the Jets.

The "American approach" with a salary cap and draft makes sense, since the MLS in primarily located in America, don't you think?

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01-22-2011, 02:27 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post


Oh, wait a minute, you're being serious....

Let's see if the MLS is still around in another 10 years first...

The owners is the league obviously believe in it. Some have spent over $40 million on expansion fees and in several cases, well over a hundred million on new soccer stadiums. I'm pretty sure this league will be around 10 years from now...

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01-22-2011, 02:45 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Bittco View Post
I'm a big fan of MLS and it has potential but it has a lot of roadblocks.

In its favor
*most kids have now played soccer as a kid
*most kids now are more receptive to different sports (growing up on espn and the occasional random things that appear)
*strong business model (branding- creating international competitions)
*great in game experience (most teams really embrace the soccer experience- it can be a lot better then many nhl games with the constant ads)

against it
*the league is barely profitable if at all (im sure someone has the numbers)*season is poorly timed- while i like the idea of having it predominately in the summer where it competes only with mlb the championship isnt until november- good luck finding anybody to watch
*horrible playoff system- people complain about the nhl/nba! ha!
*sooo many better leagues without cap restrictions and the like
You've got that right. This article, while relatively old (2007) states that the only profitable teams were the LA Galaxy, Toronto FC and FC Dallas.

http://www.soccerticketsonline.com/mls-team-valuations/

Combined operating profit = $6.7 million

IN addition the 13 teams which were in the league at the time posted an operating loss of $20 million on revenue of $165 million.

One team, Kansas City only had $5 million in revenue....but keep in mind that they are one of the few teams which do not play in a soccer-specific stadium and this info. is 4 years old.

Can't seem to find any current info. on league revenues.....

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Old
01-22-2011, 03:04 AM
  #34
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MLS won’t catch the NHL for a number of reasons.

Number of games, an NHL team has over double the number of games MLS teams have. Ticket price, I read somewhere that the average ticket price of MLS games are around $25 a game, NHL $51 a game. Factor in half as many games and a lower attendance, they are a long way off even if they eventually have higher attendance than the NHL.

There was an old adage about the LA Kings that stated, “There are 20,000 hockey fans in Los Angeles and when they are at the game no one is watching them on TV.” MLS teams have the same problem, TV ratings are terrible,

*
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According to the Nielsen ratings, Major League Soccer is nearly non-existent on television. The WNBA is getting higher ratings on ESPN2 than MLS games!
The only thing more laughable than the TV ratings is the fact that MLS asked Fox Soccer Channel to renew their expiring contract at a rate of $20 million per year. The previous contract, signed in 2007, had FSC paying $3 million a year.
*oops looks like links to this website are banned

The major players do not even take it seriously, look at David Beckham, after a wave of publicity he doesn’t take his commitment to Los Angeles seriously.

with that said GO WHITECAPS


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Old
01-22-2011, 05:11 PM
  #35
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At the end of WWII, the three most popular sports in the country were baseball, boxing, and horse racing. Football, basketball and hockey were all very far behind. Today, two of those still make some money, but aren't anywhere close to the biggest sports in America.

There's a market out there for soccer. These things tend to come in big breakthroughs. Anyone familiar with the explosion caused by the New York Cosmos around 1975 knows that the opportunity exists out there for a really big soccer league in America. A lot of people believe that if the North American Soccer League wasn't so terribly mishandled that it would be the size of the NHL today. Pele was certainly a bigger star in the country than comparable NHL players like Orr or Esposito at the time.

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01-22-2011, 06:08 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by DownFromNJ View Post
At the end of WWII, the three most popular sports in the country were baseball, boxing, and horse racing. Football, basketball and hockey were all very far behind. Today, two of those still make some money, but aren't anywhere close to the biggest sports in America.

There's a market out there for soccer. These things tend to come in big breakthroughs. Anyone familiar with the explosion caused by the New York Cosmos around 1975 knows that the opportunity exists out there for a really big soccer league in America. A lot of people believe that if the North American Soccer League wasn't so terribly mishandled that it would be the size of the NHL today. Pele was certainly a bigger star in the country than comparable NHL players like Orr or Esposito at the time.
I got a feeling that the New York Cosmos will be the newest expansion team in the MLS. Most likely joining Montreal in the same year as a new club or the year after. Check out the website as the team just announced 'King' Eric Cantona as the Director of Soccer. http://www.nycosmos.com/

So IMO, yes, the MLS will EVENTUALLY become a major sport in the North American sporting scene. Child participation in hockey in Canada is on the downward trend (not too mention Canada's birthrate is declining at a scary pace). So what children will help replenish the Canadian population? Immigrants from countries who's #1 sport is soccer. Not hockey.

Two soccer clubs in New York would be good for the MLS. As well as having Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal in the league will help boost revenue. Vancouver has already sold almost 16,000 of the 16,500 season tickets they have offered. Pretty impressive.


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Old
01-22-2011, 06:41 PM
  #37
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Two soccer clubs in New York would be good for the MLS. As well as having Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal in the league will help boost revenue.
I don't think the New York metro area can really support any more pro franchises of any kind. It's a huge market, but it already has the Yankees, the Mets, the Jets, the Giants, the Rangers, the Knicks, the Devils, the Isles, and the Nets. Already several of those teams struggle for attendance if they're not having great seasons (and in the case of the Devils, even when they are having good seasons). Plus there's a bunch of minor pro teams (the Liberty, the Cyclones, the Staten Island Yankees). Plus one MLS team.

I think its saturated.

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Old
01-22-2011, 07:05 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
The owners is the league obviously believe in it. Some have spent over $40 million on expansion fees and in several cases, well over a hundred million on new soccer stadiums. I'm pretty sure this league will be around 10 years from now...
Oh, like millionaires haven't put tons of money into failing sports franchises before. Seriously, the BEST that the MSL can hope for, if it survives, is that it hangs around in some form or another much like the NLL, MISL or Arena Football, with no hope of rising above that level. Remember, it's still soccer, like the old saying goes, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig....

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01-22-2011, 07:06 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
I don't think the New York metro area can really support any more pro franchises of any kind. It's a huge market, but it already has the Yankees, the Mets, the Jets, the Giants, the Rangers, the Knicks, the Devils, the Isles, and the Nets. Already several of those teams struggle for attendance if they're not having great seasons (and in the case of the Devils, even when they are having good seasons). Plus there's a bunch of minor pro teams (the Liberty, the Cyclones, the Staten Island Yankees). Plus one MLS team.

I think its saturated.
Isles are moving to Quebec City

I can see your point with sport saturation there and how competitive marketing would have to be just to draw in the fans. But if there is any city that could support this many sport franchises, it is New York.

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01-22-2011, 07:11 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by billycanuck View Post
Child participation in hockey in Canada is on the downward trend
I should point out that number of people playing hockey in Canada last year INCREASED by over 70,000, not exactly a downward trend...

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01-22-2011, 07:17 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Bittco View Post
all sports revenues have exploded since 1993
to make the assumption that is due to buttman is a logical falacy
Actually, assuming the NHL's did because everyone else's did is a logical fallacy. Several, in fact.

So yeah.

Generally, however, one does not look for in-depth and perceptive critical analysis from anyone who thinks saying "buttman" is witty.

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01-22-2011, 07:24 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
I should point out that number of people playing hockey in Canada last year INCREASED by over 70,000, not exactly a downward trend...
Maybe some of these 70,000 new players are from adult beer leagues and old-timer hockey...

Montreal seems like one of the better soccer cities in North America, fan for fan.

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01-22-2011, 07:26 PM
  #43
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When does our deal with Versus expire?

I think we get a big TV contract after that deal expires.

Besides the NHL is becoming more profitable so even with the MLS big growth its gonna be a while before they can catch us.

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01-22-2011, 07:46 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
Oh, like millionaires haven't put tons of money into failing sports franchises before. Seriously, the BEST that the MSL can hope for, if it survives, is that it hangs around in some form or another much like the NLL, MISL or Arena Football, with no hope of rising above that level. Remember, it's still soccer, like the old saying goes, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig....
you know mls has been around for 15 years, right? how long does it need to operate for you to think it has "survived"?

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01-22-2011, 07:53 PM
  #45
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you know mls has been around for 15 years, right? how long does it need to operate for you to think it has "survived"?
NLL has been around for 25 years, and it's not a bastion of stability.

But your point is correct here. At this point, it seems inevitable that MLS (the above poster can't even spell it right) passes the NHL at some point. The Philadelphia Union just signed a shirt sponsorship that is bigger than some in England ... the sport is only going to grow as the US demographics become more and more Hispanic.

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01-22-2011, 08:02 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
NLL has been around for 25 years, and it's not a bastion of stability.

But your point is correct here. At this point, it seems inevitable that MLS (the above poster can't even spell it right) passes the NHL at some point. The Philadelphia Union just signed a shirt sponsorship that is bigger than some in England ... the sport is only going to grow as the US demographics become more and more Hispanic.
true, i just didn't like the fact that he was acting like the league was going to dissolve next season

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01-22-2011, 08:46 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
Oh, like millionaires haven't put tons of money into failing sports franchises before. Seriously, the BEST that the MSL can hope for, if it survives, is that it hangs around in some form or another much like the NLL, MISL or Arena Football, with no hope of rising above that level. Remember, it's still soccer, like the old saying goes, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig....
Well, clearly you dislike soccer for whatever reason. As for myself, admittedly I'm not a huge fan either, but I have found myself increasingly drawn to the sport over the years given the coverage on the sports channels in Canada. It helps when we longer live in the 12 channel universe of my youth.

Do you really think the NLL, MISL and Arena football are comparable? All those teams play in arenas where basketball and hockey are the primary tenants and thus accrue most of the revenues from suites, advertisements, naming rights, parking, etc. Again, most MLS teams play in soccer-specific stadiums where they control all the revenue streams. Big difference!

Another poster mention shirt sponsorships. A quick check on Wikipedia shows 11 teams receive $30+ million per year for shirt sponsorships. That's a huge source of revenue right there.

In addition, new stadiums are either under construction or in the planning stages for the few cities who don't have them. Again, I very much doubt the owners would be spending hundreds of millions of dollars on soccer facilities if they felt the league would fold in 10 years.

I'm pretty sure the MLS will be around for decades and it will be very interesting to see how big it will become.

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01-22-2011, 09:33 PM
  #48
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MLS is already at a higher level than the NLL, MISL, and Arena Football.

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01-22-2011, 11:52 PM
  #49
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Toronto, Vancouver, Seattle all receive 4M a year (some of the most recent deals). LA Galaxy receives 'between 4M and 5M a year'. New York technically doesnt even have a sponsor, though they are owned by red bull.

shirt sponsorships in the MLS are nowhere close to where they need to be in order to significantly help MLS revenues.

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01-23-2011, 12:22 AM
  #50
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Toronto, Vancouver, Seattle all receive 4M a year (some of the most recent deals). LA Galaxy receives 'between 4M and 5M a year'. New York technically doesnt even have a sponsor, though they are owned by red bull.

shirt sponsorships in the MLS are nowhere close to where they need to be in order to significantly help MLS revenues.
When the salary cap for each team is 3M a year, they certainly do.

The biggest problem facing MLS vs the world competition is the MLS is a league of parity like the NHL. Where most leagues world wide are filled with the haves and the have nots similar to MLB. So MLS in theory could be making more then 10+ teams in the top league of England the 5-6 at the top of the table might be impossible to catch (ManU/Chelsea/Liverpool etc)

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