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Old
01-27-2011, 12:09 AM
  #251
monster_bertuzzi
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
Yes he was but that's my opinion.The other one will probably be pick just before me anyway lmao
I'll take Potvin before Bourque in real life.
I played hockey for years as a average size guy to know what it's like to play against a big mean d-man that's better than you on top of everything.I believe in the psychological side of this thing.
Again you're making logical points. We're building a team for a playoff run not starting a franchise. For one game Potvin is probably better than Bourque or N****** ********.


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01-27-2011, 12:14 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Again you're making logical points. We're building a team for a playoff run not starting a franchise. For one game Potvin is probably better than Bourque or N****** L*******.
I'll take him over them in any situations.But that's just me I'm not pretending to hold the truth.But as a average size hockey player I wasn't particularly afraid or brave of going in the traffic ( so average basically ) , and I still remember those big dman , more talented than me.There was nothing I could do against them and I thought before going in their corner.I've played from 3 years old to 17 years in organized league and they're the only opponant I remember except the team we beat to win the ******* tournament ( because they were crazy ) when ******* came in our room after the victory to hang out with us.Great memories.

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01-27-2011, 12:16 AM
  #253
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No hinting at undrafted players please.

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01-27-2011, 12:18 AM
  #254
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So as anyone talked with Thedevilmademe or am I going to sleep ( bluff I never sleep )


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01-27-2011, 12:59 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Again you're making logical points. We're building a team for a playoff run not starting a franchise. For one game Potvin is probably better than Bourque or N****** ********.
We're actually building teams for both a season and a play-off run. Everything needs to be accounted for - peak, longevity, regular season, and play-offs.

I think it would be pretty hard to argue that Potvin is better in any of those 4 areas.

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01-27-2011, 01:02 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
We're actually building teams for both a season and a play-off run. Everything needs to be accounted for - peak, longevity, regular season, and play-offs.

I think it would be pretty hard to argue that Potvin is better in any of those 4 areas.
I think peak and playoff Potvin is the best of those 3 dman. Bourque and Captain obvious.

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01-27-2011, 01:24 AM
  #257
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I think peak and playoff Potvin is the best of those 3 dman. Bourque and Captain obvious.
Depends what you want to define as peak. Potvin's best one season is probably bette than Bourque's best one season. Even if you got best couple vs. best couple, Potvin probably still wins. If you try to go much more than that - like best 5 seasons - it goes more and more towards Bourque's advantage. Bourque's peak was his entire career...



Play-offs is also questionable. If you look at their offensive production, Bourque might just have the advantage.

Potvin - 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th
Bourque - 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th

That's really damn close, and it doens't account for one playing for a dynasty... and it doesn't account for Bouque being better defensively.

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01-27-2011, 01:24 AM
  #258
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i don't think it would be very difficult to argue that potvin had a better peak and was better in the playoffs.

not easy to compare them, b/c of different teammates and different eras to some extent, but potvin was probably a better PP QB, and seems better offensively. potvin was the most physical and intimidating of them, but that may have also contributed to injury.

from his rookie season ('75) until the end of NYI dynasty ('83), potvin was the top playoff scorer in the NHL. even above scoring F's from the other 2 dynasties of the period.

potvin played the most playoff games during that period, but was over a point per game, and obviously was a d-man who provided much more than offense.

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01-27-2011, 01:46 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Depends what you want to define as peak. Potvin's best one season is probably bette than Bourque's best one season. Even if you got best couple vs. best couple, Potvin probably still wins. If you try to go much more than that - like best 5 seasons - it goes more and more towards Bourque's advantage. Bourque's peak was his entire career...



Play-offs is also questionable. If you look at their offensive production, Bourque might just have the advantage.

Potvin - 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th
Bourque - 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th

That's really damn close, and it doens't account for one playing for a dynasty... and it doesn't account for Bouque being better defensively.
I value physical play from defenseman in the playoff a lot as you might have noticed in my post explaining my own experience playing and watching hockey , less with forward but that's not the point.Offensively they might have been close , but Potvin was WAY WAY WAY more physical than Bourque was better defensively , and of course you can't blame Bourque for not winning it with Boston but Potvin still was the corner stone of a dynasty ( and thats not debatable imo , ahead of ******* and ******* by far as far as I'm concerned ) and won 4 consecutive cups.You can't take this away from him.The guy was definately the 2nd or 3rd best 1st overall ever so his talent was never in doubt ( behind Lemieux and behind/ahead ******* ) he was just a beast.I'm a crazy guy but i'll take Potvin ahead of every D but Orr.His nastiness and size puts him above Harvey for me ( even if Harvey wasn't small he wasn't that big ).I know it's not popular around here but that's my opinion.That's how high I regard him.I'm just a big believer in big nasty complete dman.

So now feel the pain for me cause I won't be able to have on my team and defend him with so much heart


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Old
01-27-2011, 02:10 AM
  #260
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reen, you should edit out the names of undrafted players.

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Old
01-27-2011, 02:12 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
The Kimberley Dynamiters are proud to kick off their first round with one of the most complete defenceman of all-time, a player who could make an impact both on the score sheet and in open ice.

D Denis Potvin


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Old
01-27-2011, 02:29 AM
  #262
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I value physical play from defenseman in the playoff a lot as you might have noticed in my post explaining my own experience playing and watching hockey , less with forward but that's not the point.Offensively they might have been close , but Potvin was WAY WAY WAY more physical than Bourque was better defensively , and of course you can't blame Bourque for not winning it with Boston but Potvin still was the corner stone of a dynasty ( and thats not debatable imo , ahead of trottier and bossy by far as far as I'm concerned ) and won 4 consecutive cups.You can't take this away from him.The guy was definately the 2nd or 3rd best 1st overall ever so his talent was never in doubt ( behind Lemieux and behind/ahead Lafleur ) he was just a beast.I'm a crazy guy but i'll take Potvin ahead of every D but Orr.His nastiness and size puts him above Harvey for me ( even if Harvey wasn't small he wasn't that big ).I know it's not popular around here but that's my opinion.That's how high I regard him.I'm just a big believer in big nasty complete dman.
First of all, Harvey is bigger for his era tha Potvin is for his. I don't think I would argue that Harvey was meaner or even as mean as Potvin, but he sure one one tough son-of-a-batch-of-cookies. Also, Eddie Shore is bigger and meaner than both of them.

Second, I love physical players just as much as anybody, but I also realize it is only a small part of the game. They still count goals. Scoring goals is much more important than hitting. Preventing goals is also much more important than hitting. ay Bourque and undrafted guy are both much better at both scoring and preventing goals than Denis Potvin.

Lastly, Potvin's physical play was acconted for when Norris and All-Star votes were made. It's not like you're just adding physical play to the mix - it's already in the results.



Norris Voting:
Potvin - 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd(to Orr), 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 8th
Bourque - 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 7th, 7th.

We'll ignore the equal results (counting the 2nd to Orr as a 1st)....
Potvin - 8th
Bourque - 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 7th, 7th

Do you really beleive any amount of bodychecking is going to make up for that?? (even though Potvin's physical play was already counted in those votes)

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01-27-2011, 02:45 AM
  #263
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****.

I am absolutely kicking myself for dropping out of 11th right now, lol. I would have been absolutely thrilled to build a team around the guy TDMM is likely to take, something that would have been very exciting for me.

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01-27-2011, 04:47 AM
  #264
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Denis Potvin is my favorite player of all time, but you're grossly overrating him to put him above Ray Bourque, nevermind Doug Harvey. If Potvin's peak was as long as Bourque's you could certainly make an argument that he was better, but in reality it was less than half as long. Ray Bourque was a machine, and to be honest, I think the more appropriate argument vis-a-vis Bourque is where does he rank in comparison to Harvey and Shore (I have them Harvey - Bourque - Shore, by the way). Potvin is simply not on that plateau.

I don't look at longevity too much when it's a difference of a couple of years. When one guy does it for twice as long as the other, however, that counts for quite a lot. Injuries are a killer, and Potvin played hurt a lot. At his very best, I believe he was better than Bourque, but he was far less consistent - both from game-to-game and season-to-season.

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01-27-2011, 05:06 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Denis Potvin is my favorite player of all time, but you're grossly overrating him to put him above Ray Bourque, nevermind Doug Harvey. If Potvin's peak was as long as Bourque's you could certainly make an argument that he was better, but in reality it was less than half as long. Ray Bourque was a machine, and to be honest, I think the more appropriate argument vis-a-vis Bourque is where does he rank in comparison to Harvey and Shore (I have them Harvey - Bourque - Shore, by the way). Potvin is simply not on that plateau.

I don't look at longevity too much when it's a difference of a couple of years. When one guy does it for twice as long as the other, however, that counts for quite a lot. Injuries are a killer, and Potvin played hurt a lot. At his very best, I believe he was better than Bourque, but he was far less consistent - both from game-to-game and season-to-season.
Hopefully, I'm able to successfully argue that Bourque is at least on the same level as Harvey and Shore. He's definately #4 at worst, and he's a lot closer to #2 and #3 than he is to #5.

I've already learned that I had Bourque missunderstood! I always thought he was a great offensive guy who wasn't a liability defensively, but it seems that he might have been better defensively than he was offensively!

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01-27-2011, 06:05 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Denis Potvin is my favorite player of all time, but you're grossly overrating him to put him above Ray Bourque, nevermind Doug Harvey. If Potvin's peak was as long as Bourque's you could certainly make an argument that he was better, but in reality it was less than half as long. Ray Bourque was a machine, and to be honest, I think the more appropriate argument vis-a-vis Bourque is where does he rank in comparison to Harvey and Shore (I have them Harvey - Bourque - Shore, by the way). Potvin is simply not on that plateau.

I don't look at longevity too much when it's a difference of a couple of years. When one guy does it for twice as long as the other, however, that counts for quite a lot. Injuries are a killer, and Potvin played hurt a lot. At his very best, I believe he was better than Bourque, but he was far less consistent - both from game-to-game and season-to-season.
You need to give some more love to your favourite player.

Put me among the people that believe that Potvin peaked higher.

The reason his career was shorter and he played hurt a lot is because he left it all out there - winning 19 straight playoff series and producing 85 points in 78 games during their 4 cup wins.

All while being more feared physically than Bourque could have ever hoped to be.

Virtually no one has the longevity of Bourque as a defenseman and that is certainly the main point in his favour, but he gets extra credit for the same Norris/Allstar votes that Lidstrom gets the "weak competition" argument put into play for.. and he was never the engine powering a dynasty.

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01-27-2011, 06:08 AM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Hopefully, I'm able to successfully argue that Bourque is at least on the same level as Harvey and Shore. He's definately #4 at worst, and he's a lot closer to #2 and #3 than he is to #5.

I've already learned that I had Bourque missunderstood! I always thought he was a great offensive guy who wasn't a liability defensively, but it seems that he might have been better defensively than he was offensively!
imo, bourque was about equal both ways.

it is entirely possible that bourque was better than shore and harvey, but i think it is nearly impossible to rank similar players from different eras. i don't have a good idea of the level of play of harvey or shore, and even if i had seen them often, circumstances were so different that the comparison would still be nearly impossible.

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01-27-2011, 06:09 AM
  #268
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Either people need to take the undrafted players rule seriously or we may as well just abolish it... = \

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01-27-2011, 06:15 AM
  #269
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It all goes back to the argument of valuing peak and longevity. if you value peak higher, then maybe Potvin is the better defenseman, and the opposite is true as well.

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01-27-2011, 06:40 AM
  #270
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It all goes back to the argument of valuing peak and longevity. if you value peak higher, then maybe Potvin is the better defenseman, and the opposite is true as well.
reen apparently ranks potvin above bourque and 2nd after orr based mostly on potvin's advantage in physicality, rather than on peak.

i think that is completely defensible. i don't like that many regulars of the history section generally try to establish a canon or conventional wisdom.

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01-27-2011, 06:52 AM
  #271
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reen apparently ranks potvin above bourque and 2nd after orr based mostly on potvin's advantage in physicality, rather than on peak.

i think that is completely defensible. i don't like that many regulars of the history section generally try to establish a canon or conventional wisdom.
I'm not sure I ''rank'' him ahead of Harvey and Bourque if we truly make a list of careers , but I know if I was a NHL GM with all these players age 18 I would take Potvin , and even more as a coach.Just my type of dman and I do value prime higher than longevity , a lot , in fact , after 10 years I don't truly care about longevity , I don't think it makes a player better , just his career.Not saying I don't like Bourque's or Harvey's prime , I'm just showing my colors for future conversations

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01-27-2011, 07:06 AM
  #272
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If Thedevilmademe doesn't come this morning you people might have to wait for me for the 12th until later tonight because I won't have any computer near me once I leave.

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01-27-2011, 07:14 AM
  #273
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If Thedevilmademe doesn't come this morning you people might have to wait for me for the 12th until later tonight because I won't have any computer near me once I leave.
Then send me a list. I'm here all day.

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01-27-2011, 07:16 AM
  #274
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I'm not sure I ''rank'' him ahead of Harvey and Bourque if we truly make a list of careers , but I know if I was a NHL GM with all these players age 18 I would take Potvin , and even more as a coach.Just my type of dman and I do value prime higher than longevity , a lot , in fact , after 10 years I don't truly care about longevity , I don't think it makes a player better , just his career.Not saying I don't like Bourque's or Harvey's prime , I'm just showing my colors for future conversations
It does beg the question, how long does a player really have to play before longevity becomes a non-issue. Does it really matter that Bourque continued to display the same dominance for 10 years after the first 10? It's not like he played any better.. he just maintained the same level for a longer period of time. Why does longevity matter so much in an ATD that is only one season + playoffs?

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01-27-2011, 07:17 AM
  #275
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beliveau was probably the easiest player to build around, which is one of the 2 reasons i did not pick him.

but i have also been wondering how great an offensive player beliveau was. he was often outscored at ES by several teammates, and probably had the best linemates and supporting d-men of any player for much of his career.
My opinion is that Beliveau was actually hurt in even strength scoring by the team he was playing on. Every other top 10 player got loads of ice time, but Beliveau likely got less even strength time than his teammate (counteracted by the fact that Beliveau played the whole PP basically, as was the norm at the time).

And his team was not all that stacked, at least not offensively, for the second half of his career.

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