HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

ATD 2011- Draft Thread

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-30-2011, 04:00 PM
  #751
Velociraptor
Nucks future 1C??
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,669
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Without Orr: Led the Summit Series in goals, assists, and points.
Without grinders on his wings.

Velociraptor is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:05 PM
  #752
markrander87
Registered User
 
markrander87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,578
vCash: 500
Since we are comparing players, id like to know why Potvin is always taken so far ahead of Robinson. Yes, im aware Potvin has the better peak, but Robinsons longevity has to weigh in. Potvin only has one more Norris, and Robinson has a smythe.

markrander87 is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:07 PM
  #753
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,190
vCash: 500
Espo was great during the Summit Series, but it was also eight games. I also tend think the fact that there was nobody in the Soviet Union who played like Esposito was part of the reason their defensemen just couldn't handle him, compared to the speedier players.

It's fairly well-known that after he was traded from Boston, he struggled to find wingers to compliment his game. And it reached the point that his new team actually brought back one of his old wingers from Boston.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:09 PM
  #754
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,190
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Since we are comparing players, id like to know why Potvin is always taken so far ahead of Robinson. Yes, im aware Potvin has the better peak, but Robinsons longevity has to weigh in. Potvin only has one more Norris, and Robinson has a smythe.
The short answer is that everyone who saw both of them pick Potvin, quite easily.

The big difference I see is that while Robinson was very good offensively, Potvin was significantly better, especially on the PP. And I really don't see Robinson having much of a longevity edge either, to be honest. He played a lot longer, but he wasn't quite the same player towards the end of his career.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:11 PM
  #755
Velociraptor
Nucks future 1C??
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,669
vCash: 500
What I'd have done to see just one of those Summit Series games live, wow. The excitement must have been immaculate.

Velociraptor is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:14 PM
  #756
Nighthawks
 
Nighthawks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CT
Country: United States
Posts: 157
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Since we are comparing players, id like to know why Potvin is always taken so far ahead of Robinson. Yes, im aware Potvin has the better peak, but Robinsons longevity has to weigh in. Potvin only has one more Norris, and Robinson has a smythe.
Robinson's longevity is a huge factor. Not only did he play 20 season, but he never had a negative +/- any year. Guys are bound to have down years, so that's one thing that stuck out for me.

Robinson has the size advantage and was a punishing checker like Potvin. The only difference is that Robinson had excellent discipline and was clean. He has half as many PIMs than Potvin in roughly 350 more games played.

Potvin clearly gets the offensive edge, but there are a lot of pluses to having Robinson, especially considering what type of team one is looking to build.

Nighthawks is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:15 PM
  #757
markrander87
Registered User
 
markrander87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The short answer is that everyone who saw both of them pick Potvin, quite easily.

The big difference I see is that while Robinson was very good offensively, Potvin was significantly better, especially on the PP. And I really don't see Robinson having much of a longevity edge either, to be honest. He played a lot longer, but he wasn't quite the same player towards the end of his career.


But who's everyone? Are there links or any factual information?


Do you think that everyone who saw Clarke, Esposito and Messier play would put Messier in the same category as Clarke and Esposito?

Edit: In both of their primes 1976, Robinson was voted as the leagues top Defensive D-man, Potvin was voted 3rd...

markrander87 is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:20 PM
  #758
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,190
vCash: 500
I added new quotes to my Rocket Richard profile and tidied up the formatting. It's here if anyone wants to see it:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=3...&postcount=285

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:23 PM
  #759
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,190
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
But who's everyone? Are there links or any factual information?


Do you think that everyone who saw Clarke, Esposito and Messier play would put Messier in the same category as Clarke and Esposito?

Edit: In both of their primes 1976, Robinson was voted as the leagues top Defensive D-man, Potvin was voted 3rd...
Everyone, meaning the panel of long-time hockey people who put together the THN Top 100 list, every former player analyst or media person who has commented, and every older poster I've seen on hfboards. Potvin is ranked significantly higher than Robinson on all 3 Top 100 lists. (THN and both HOH lists).

The question is generally whether Potvin is as good as Lidstrom and Bourque, not whether Robinson is as good as Potvin.

As for Messier, most older hockey people tend to rank him a lot higher than we do here on hfboards....

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:27 PM
  #760
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,190
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthawks View Post
Robinson's longevity is a huge factor. Not only did he play 20 season, but he never had a negative +/- any year. Guys are bound to have down years, so that's one thing that stuck out for me.

Robinson has the size advantage and was a punishing checker like Potvin. The only difference is that Robinson had excellent discipline and was clean. He has half as many PIMs than Potvin in roughly 350 more games played.

Potvin clearly gets the offensive edge, but there are a lot of pluses to having Robinson, especially considering what type of team one is looking to build.
Robinson was a 1st Team All Star 3 Times, 2nd Team 3 Times. Potvin was a 1st Team All Star 5 Times, 2nd Team once.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "longevity." Robinson played a lot more games than Potvin did (Potvin was still basically in his prime when he retired), but was he still an elite player? He only has the one 2nd Team All-Star selection after 1981. So I don't think either player has an advantage in terms of seasons as an elite player.

And I can tell you're a young poster (nothing wrong with that!), because back when Potvin played, his PIMs were considered a positive thing, a sign of toughness!

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:30 PM
  #761
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,785
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
Messier and Robinson are similar player , playing differant position , if that makes any sense.They have no real weaknesses.
Just in my opinion Robinson is a more complete two-way guy than Messier.

Messier's defensive game is overrated from what I have seen.

Hard to compare between positions like that but just my opinion.

The nice thing about both of them those is that they could intimidate the opposition if the need came up.

Robinson almost singlehandedly sent the Broad Street Bullies home with their tails between their legs.

Messier was a physical force of will especially (in my opinion) for the Oilers first cup win against the Isles and of course with the Rangers.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 01-30-2011 at 04:38 PM.
BraveCanadian is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:31 PM
  #762
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
As for Messier, most older hockey people tend to rank him a lot higher than we do here on hfboards....
Messier was a great player, but having seen them both, I would take Trottier first in an ATD. I don't consider the gap wide, but it is there, and maybe more pronounced in an all-time context where one of Messier's greatest traits (his ability to intimidate) is considerably muted by the level of competition. Basically what it boils down to is that Trottier was, in my opinion, the superior 2-way player at his peak, and not by a small margin. Messier's longevity and physical game even that out somewhat, but I can't really see myself taking Mark over Bryan in an all-time context. I'm also not really sure how well the moose's lockerroom darth vader act would go over in a group full of all-time greats, so the leadership element, though once again only in an ATD context, is somewhat lost in my mind.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:32 PM
  #763
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,785
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Exactly. You're pretty good for a "newbie."
Despite the fact that real NHL GMs make millions for doing this sort of decision making.. it ain't exactly rocket science.

Luck factors a lot more into results than people like to admit.

BraveCanadian is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:34 PM
  #764
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,785
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
al macinnis was a great player and i believe this is the first time that he ha s gone inside the top 30
Being a right handed shot makes him very valuable in building a first pairing, if you ask me.

BraveCanadian is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:38 PM
  #765
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
And I can tell you're a young poster (nothing wrong with that!), because back when Potvin played, his PIMs were considered a positive thing, a sign of toughness!
Although this may well be nothing more than a sign of the persistent caveman mentality of the average north american hockey fan. There is something to be said for achieving the same physical effect (which Robinson did) with half the time in the box. As far as the physical aspect of the game goes, Robinson was clearly a bit better. Both were devastating open-ice hitters, but Robinson was more of a bulldozer in the crease, though Potvin was also quite good at that, himself. As fate would have it, a lot of Potvin's injuries were caused by his own hitting. Physically, Robinson played more under control, which I believe is ultimately an advantage. The offensive difference between them was not small, however, and I'd definitely take Denis first, all other things being equal.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:38 PM
  #766
markrander87
Registered User
 
markrander87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Everyone, meaning the panel of long-time hockey people who put together the THN Top 100 list, every former player analyst or media person who has commented, and every older poster I've seen on hfboards. Potvin is ranked significantly higher than Robinson on all 3 Top 100 lists. (THN and both HOH lists).

The question is generally whether Potvin is as good as Lidstrom and Bourque, not whether Robinson is as good as Potvin.

As for Messier, most older hockey people tend to rank him a lot higher than we do here on hfboards....
The same board that have Terry Sawchuk as the best goaltender of all-time? The same board that have XXXXXX at 99? Give me a break, I could go on and on about that list. So what we use that list when convenient for our opinions and then totally disregard it when its not deemed useful.

markrander87 is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:41 PM
  #767
Hedberg
MLD Glue Guy
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BC, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 16,190
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
The same board that have Terry Sawchuk as the best goaltender of all-time?
That seems fair for a list made in early 1998.

Hedberg is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:42 PM
  #768
markrander87
Registered User
 
markrander87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,578
vCash: 500
If Messier is so great defensively, how come he's NEVER won a selke? 13 different players won a Selke during Messiers career, something isnt adding up?

Messier isnt better then Clarke Offensively
He isnt better then clarke Defensively....

Sooooo how on earth is he in the same breath as Clarke?


And to make myself clear, im not saying I'd take Robinson over Potvin, but simply pointing out the gap isnt as big as its made out to be.

markrander87 is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:42 PM
  #769
markrander87
Registered User
 
markrander87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
That seems fair for a list made in early 1998.
Plante....

And he's above Eddie Shore.

markrander87 is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:43 PM
  #770
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,190
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
The same board that have Terry Sawchuk as the best goaltender of all-time? The same board that have XXXXXX at 99? Give me a break, I could go on and on about that list. So what we use that list when convenient for our opinions and then totally disregard it when its not deemed useful.
Terry Sawchuk as #1 all-time was perfectly reasonable in 1996 or whenever the list was voted on. Roy had only a season in Colorado under his belt and Hasek was barely getting started.

That list is the aggregate opinions of a variety of long-time hockey people and journalists. Nothing more, nothing less. The methodology is suspect and the names listed towards the bottom of the list are questionable (when a lot of vote splitting was surely going on particularly with the lack of discussion)

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:45 PM
  #771
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,190
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
If Messier is so great defensively, how come he's NEVER won a selke? 13 different players won a Selke during Messiers career, something isnt adding up?

Messier isnt better then Clarke Offensively
He isnt better then clarke Defensively....

Sooooo how on earth is he in the same breath as Clarke?
Messier was a much better goal scorer than Bobby Clarke, and quite a bit better at all aspects of offense in the playoffs (the fact that Clarke's offense dropped rather significantly in the playoffs, while he focused more on a shutdown role, is something that is usually ignored around here).

Messier also murders Clarke in terms of longevity as an elite player. Edit: And Messier, would, in fact, murder Clarke if it gave him a better shot at the Stanley Cup. And I'm sure Bobby would return the favor.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:50 PM
  #772
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,236
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Classiest player of all-time, most respected player of all-time, best leader of all-time, best winner of all-time.
To be fair that's worth nothing.

And isn't the best winner xxx? lol


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 01-30-2011 at 05:01 PM.
BenchBrawl is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:52 PM
  #773
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,785
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Now that Messier's picked I really do think it's a good time for other GMs (particularly BraveCanadian) to educate me more about Bryan Trottier, who came a bit before my time.

Like 70s said, Messier, Trottier, and Clarke are similar players. From my research of them, I currently rank Trottier the third best among them. Clarke (also before my time) seems to have the best peak, both statistically (if you believe in the defensive stats) and based on awards voting. And Messier absolutely kills the other two in terms of longevity as an elite player (and I think has better Hart voting than Trottier at his peak).

And yet this is the third draft in a row that Trottier was selected first among the three. And the last two times, I believe it was by GMs who actually watched him in his prime (VI now BC). So please, long term hockey fans, educate me about Trottier. What makes him worthy of being selected that early? Specific comparisons to Messier and Clarke are particularly appreciated.
My opinion:

Trottier is better than Clarke offensively and better than Messier both offensively (slight) and defensively (a good margin).

Not to mention he was a physical force without being dirty so he didn't take bad penalties that could cost you. I often liken Trottier to a bulldozer for the way he hit.


Both Trottier and Clarke led the league in assists twice but Trottier was a much better goal scorer. Clarke and Trottier both led the league in plus minus once but I'd say Clarke was better defensively. It is pretty safe to say Clarke is probably the best defensive forward of all time, but I don't think Trottier is too far down the list by any means. (We've seen lots of numbers on Clarke)

I still think Trottier was a better overall player than Clarke by some margin, he just had the unfortunate timing of playing a lot of his career against Gretzky as far as award counting goes.

Trottier/Messier are close as goal scorers in my opinion. Trottier kills him as a (peak) playmaker and defensively.

Messier really rests on his longevity and "leadership". I do give him points for both but outside Gretzky/Lemieux/Beliveau I'd coinflip between Mikita and Trottier and then its everyone else.

And I like Trottier cause he was bigger than Mikita and didn't take as many dumb penalties to be physical. Mikita was a guy who took penalties early in his career and then later on he was a guy who didn't. No middle ground for him.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 01-30-2011 at 05:01 PM.
BraveCanadian is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 04:56 PM
  #774
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,709
vCash: 9000
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
To be fair that's worth nothing.

And isn't the best winner xxx? lol
STOP MENTIONING UNDRAFTEDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And Beliveau has his name on the cup 17 times.

BillyShoe1721 is offline  
Old
01-30-2011, 05:02 PM
  #775
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,236
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
STOP MENTIONING UNDRAFTEDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And Beliveau has his name on the cup 17 times.
Yeah , but we all know the 7 other times doesn't really count , not like he was GM and an important part of it.And I'm really not trying to downplay Beliveau here , I'm a Montreal Canadiens fan.

BenchBrawl is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:26 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.