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Old
01-31-2011, 12:50 PM
  #901
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87
Thats one of the guys left who I feel is in the same group as Messier.
He is... if you look just at regular season offense and ignore the playoffs. Messier has scored 20+ points in the playoffs 7 times, and 10+ points 14 times. Yzerman... 3 and 8.

Yzerman was better defensively once he got good defensively, but Messier was consistently strong almost his whole career. Overall, looking at the "microcosm of their career", as Sturm says, I see no reason to put Yzerman much ahead defensively.

Besides, how much better was Yzerman offensively in the regular season, anyways? Here are his best 16 points rankings in order: (I did this quickly using a file that I have, so a tie here and there might be listed as 1-2 lower than it actually is)

3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10, 12*, 12, 13, 16, 19, 22, 24, 26, 32*, 50

and here are Messier's:

2, 3, 6, 7, 7, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 23, 28, 30, 31, 40, 50

they match up almost perfectly the entire way.

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Old
01-31-2011, 12:52 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I think Messier's defense is sort of in the middle of Yzerman's ability range.

I think early in his career Yzerman was better offensively and worse defensively than Messier.

Later in his career (but before he really slowed down near the end) I think Yzerman was a little worse offensively and better defensively than Messier.

Messier's game really didn't change much in my mind once he hit his stride in the NHL.
That's exactly what happened, IMO.

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01-31-2011, 12:57 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I have definitely read reports from the early 90s, when the Penguins felt they had to bring a certain type of player to Pittsburgh to keep Jagr happy (and obviously it worked).
And you know why?

He was very young, coming from a country where communism just fell.
He couldn't speak any English. The culture was totally different. Jagr got homesick. How can he be blamed for that? Penguins brought in Hrdina to help Jagr settle down in US. Obviously it worked.
I have heard nothing but praise for Jagr coming from young hockey players in KHL, Czech National team, and Rangers - he was even named their captain. His attitude problems or whatever some people call it are way overblown. IMHO he is better than 10-12 guys picked before him in this ATD.


Last edited by Reds4Life: 01-31-2011 at 01:08 PM.
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Old
01-31-2011, 01:10 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
And you know why?

He was very young, coming from a country where communism just fell.
He couldn't speak any English. The culture was totally different. Jagr got homesick. How can he be blamed for that? Penguins brought in Hrdina to help Jagr settle down in US. Obviously it worked.
I have heard nothing but praise for Jagr coming from young hockey players in KHL, Czech National team, and Ranges - he was even named their captain. His attitude problems or whatever some people call it are way overblown. IMHO he is better than 10-12 guys picked before him in this ATD.
People arent talking about Jagrs first seasons. I, myself, brought up the ****** case. That you heard praises for him from younger players doesn't affect me at all as that was after he turned 30. The attitude problems were a thing of the pre-rangers era which I doubt is overblown.


Last edited by seventieslord: 01-31-2011 at 01:23 PM. Reason: undrafted coach
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Old
01-31-2011, 01:21 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
People arent talking about Jagrs first seasons. I, myself, brought up the Hlinka case. That you heard praises for him from younger players doesn't affect me at all as that was after he turned 30. The attitude problems were a thing of the pre-rangers era which I doubt is overblown.
That doesn't make sense. That's like saying I don't care about Lafleur's peak/Yzerman's two-way play/Lidstrom's Norris trophies etc. because it happened when they were 30 already or weren't 30 yet. LOL



What about ****** and Jagr?

All I see is media speculation, Jagr having a bad start of the season (only PPG lol) and discussions with coach, GM and maybe some players.
Mario Lemieux:
He's a great team player (Jagr)," Lemieux said. "He's just frustrated with his game."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hoc...rated_jagr_ap/

Punishing Jagr for any of that (desire to play to his best ability) is ****ing stupid.

Also, the edit by seventieslord was pretty weird to say the least.


Last edited by Reds4Life: 01-31-2011 at 01:50 PM. Reason: undrafted coach (seventieslord)
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Old
01-31-2011, 01:47 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
Hey guys I pick 34th overall but on my way to work & will be back on later this afternoon. Currently were at the 30th pick so I should be good with time.
It's almost 3 EST...

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Old
01-31-2011, 01:51 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
That doesn't make sense. That's like saying I don't care about Lafleur's peak because it happened when he wasn't 30 yet.



What about ****** and Jagr?

All I see is media speculation, Jagr having a bad start of the season (only PPG lol) and discussions with coach, GM and maybe some players.
Mario Lemieux:
He's a great team player (Jagr)," Lemieux said. "He's just frustrated with his game."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hoc...rated_jagr_ap/

Punishing Jagr for any of that (desire to play to his best ability) is ****ing stupid.

Also, the edit by seventieslord was pretty weird to say the least.
It makes perfect sense. After he hit 30 he matured abit but since he spent a majority of his career having some personal problems I would take someone else to build around. Media speculation? His problems in Pittsburgh was well known specially at the end of the 90s abd the beginning of the 2000s.

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Old
01-31-2011, 01:56 PM
  #908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
It makes perfect sense.
No, it's really, really stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
After he hit 30 he matured abit but since he spent a majority of his career having some personal problems I would take someone else to build around. Media speculation? His problems in Pittsburgh was well known specially at the end of the 90s abd the beginning of the 2000s.
Please provide any evidence. Have you been in the locker-room? Pics, videos, anything?

What problems did he have in Pittsburgh, other than media speculating about why he's down (only PPG pace ) in 00-01? Jagr said he wasn't playing very well. I already provided the quote by Mario.
So, what are the other problems? Contrary to the popular belief, Jagr is not even close to what some people call "locker-room cancer".

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Old
01-31-2011, 01:56 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
He is... if you look just at regular season offense and ignore the playoffs. Messier has scored 20+ points in the playoffs 7 times, and 10+ points 14 times. Yzerman... 3 and 8.

Yzerman was better defensively once he got good defensively, but Messier was consistently strong almost his whole career. Overall, looking at the "microcosm of their career", as Sturm says, I see no reason to put Yzerman much ahead defensively.

Besides, how much better was Yzerman offensively in the regular season, anyways? Here are his best 16 points rankings in order: (I did this quickly using a file that I have, so a tie here and there might be listed as 1-2 lower than it actually is)

3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10, 12*, 12, 13, 16, 19, 22, 24, 26, 32*, 50

and here are Messier's:

2, 3, 6, 7, 7, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 23, 28, 30, 31, 40, 50

they match up almost perfectly the entire way.
I thought you'd be the first one to shout "but hey, Messier played for a dynasty, and had more of those good playoff years during higher scoring seasons" but then I remembered you picked Messier.

Yzerman's best playoff years are all in the height of the dead puck era so I'm gonna have to take the arbitrary playoff scoring cut offs with a grain of salt.

I don't think I could say Messier was a better playoff performer than Yzerman with any certainty. Yzerman was amazing in 02 at the age of 36 while basically playing on one leg. Messier in 94 and in the second final against the Isles was also awesome.

Secondly how do the finishes look with Mario and Wayne removed? Keeping in mind that in Messier's #2 season he was only two points ahead of Yzerman while playing for a (still but fading) dynasty club?


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 01-31-2011 at 02:08 PM.
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Old
01-31-2011, 02:42 PM
  #910
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Will you guys PLEASE send a PM when someone is up. I had no idea I was on the clock. Lets get it together

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Old
01-31-2011, 02:43 PM
  #911
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I'm around whenever you pick JFA so don't worry about the pm.

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Old
01-31-2011, 02:45 PM
  #912
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I thought you'd be the first one to shout "but hey, Messier played for a dynasty, and had more of those good playoff years during higher scoring seasons" but then I remembered you picked Messier.
Messier was the second best player on that dynasty, he deserves a ton of credit for it.

two of his 30-point playoffs were post-Gretzky, as were six of his seven other 10+ point playoffs (unless you really want to credit 1997 Gretzky with boosting Messier's production... but that was far from a dynasty, and that was your point, not Gretzky.

Quote:
Yzerman's best playoff years are all in the height of the dead puck era so I'm gonna have to take the arbitrary playoff scoring cut offs with a grain of salt.
Yeah, scoring was down about 20% so I suppose you could call his 24, 23, 13, and 13-point seasons in 1997, 1998, 1999, and 2002 about 30, 29, 16 and 16. Point still stands, and on all four legs I might add.

And if the above about Messier being on a dynasty has any merit, Yzerman was on the closest thing to a dynasty as well - the wings played the 2nd-most playoff games from 1996 to 2002, and played in the most finals.

maybe playoff scoring finishes do it for you?

2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 6, 10, 16, 17, 18

vs.

1, 2, 6, 12, 12, 14, 20, 37, 39, 59...

Quote:
I don't think I could say Messier was a better playoff performer than Yzerman with any certainty. Yzerman was amazing in 02 at the age of 36 while basically playing on one leg. Messier in 94 and in the second final against the Isles was also awesome.
Yeah, and in 85, 87, 88, 90... Yzerman's 1998 was also awesome, of course. When else was this guy who never had a 10-goal playoff "amazing"?

Quote:
Secondly how do the finishes look with Mario and Wayne removed? Keeping in mind that in Messier's #2 season he was only two points ahead of Yzerman while playing for a (still but fading) dynasty club?
I didn't bother because it wouldn't really change anything - most seasons both players were behind both Gretzky and Lemieux, or behind Gretzky and ahead of an injured Lemieux.

And it doesn't really concern me that Messier was 2nd in points with the 1990 Oilers... he was 2nd in points, that's what I want to know.

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01-31-2011, 02:46 PM
  #913
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Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
Will you guys PLEASE send a PM when someone is up. I had no idea I was on the clock. Lets get it together
Quoted and highlighted for importance.

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Old
01-31-2011, 02:48 PM
  #914
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I'm around whenever you pick JFA so don't worry about the pm.
ok cool. I need someone to pm me when I'm up for future reference. I have alot going on in my life right and those Pm's help me ut big time. i'll be picking shortly so stay posted

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01-31-2011, 02:49 PM
  #915
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Seriously guys, we're pretty loosey-goosey here on the ATD board. There really are just two rules anyone has to worry about: 1) Don't mention or hint at undrafted players in the draft thread; 2) After you make a selection, PM the GM who comes after you.

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Old
01-31-2011, 02:52 PM
  #916
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The Pittsburgh Bankers select F Newsy Lalonde

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01-31-2011, 02:53 PM
  #917
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For my Esposito bio, I'm just going to edit my original post where I drafted him. It's in the records I originally drafted him so if anyone has suspicions about edited posts, you'll know I'm too lazy to make a new one.

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01-31-2011, 02:53 PM
  #918
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Yeah, and a reminder to everyone else, if in doubt that someone hasn't received a PM, send them one! Getting spammed with 5 or 6 "you're up!" messages is better than coming into this thread and having to see 50 posts of "****ing vcl!!!!!! hurry up!!!!!" because you didn't get a PM.

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01-31-2011, 02:53 PM
  #919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

Yeah, and in 85, 87, 88, 90... Yzerman's 1998 was also awesome, of course. When else was this guy who never had a 10-goal playoff "amazing"?
The point is that after the age of 30 (and after having left his dynasty club), Messier had 1 season over 20 points - the year the Rangers one the cup. Which admittedly was a pretty damn awesome performance.

After the age of 30 when Yzerman's teams started getting up to a comparable level he had all three of his 20+ point playoffs.

Now are you going to try and tell me 30+ year old Yzerman was a better point producer than he was in his offensive prime or are you going to admit that team factors a lot into playoff performance?

The problem with comparing their playoff performances by points is that when Messier (and his team) was at his best he was in his 20s on a high-scoring dynasty and when Yzerman (and his team) was at his best he was in his 30s in the dead puck era.

I don't think much separates them as playoff performers.

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01-31-2011, 02:54 PM
  #920
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Yeah, and a reminder to everyone else, if in doubt that someone hasn't received a PM, send them one! Getting spammed with 5 or 6 "you're up!" messages is better than coming into this thread and having to see 50 posts of "****ing vcl!!!!!! hurry up!!!!!" because you didn't get a PM.
Yes please send Pm's to the next Gm picking no matter what. Thanks guys

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01-31-2011, 02:57 PM
  #921
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I had a good feeling you would snag Lalonde, nice pick. I'm still considering 3 or 4 guys so I might take up to 30 mins or so guys.

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01-31-2011, 02:59 PM
  #922
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The Pittsburgh Bankers select F Newsy Lalonde
It was a tough decision between Lalonde, Esposito and Bossy for me at 25. Surprised he continued to drop, such an interesting player and a great one to build around. Nice pick JFA.

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01-31-2011, 03:19 PM
  #923
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Modo listpicks Mike Bossy, RW
Thanks for the selection, seventies, sorry I wasn't around to make that one myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raleh View Post
That's a pretty easy pick. I had his name typed out, but then decided to go with Hall. I've never had a top 7 goalie in this thing. My original plan saw me taking a bottom 7 goalie and giving my favourite backup a shot at being a starter, but I think this is likely a bit safer.
I was pretty much 85% convinced that you or one of the couple picks before you would take Bossy, so I breathed a sigh of relief just now to come online and see Glenn Hall in bold letters.

Very happy to have snagged Bossy when I did! There's probably a reason for him to slide down as far as he did; in previous drafts, he'd gone as high as top-10, usually somewhere in the 20's though I think.

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Old
01-31-2011, 03:25 PM
  #924
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Will you guys PLEASE send a PM when someone is up. I had no idea I was on the clock. Lets get it together
Sorry I dropped the ball there. My bad. Blame me and not JFA guys.

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01-31-2011, 03:44 PM
  #925
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After much deliberation I've decided to go with a cerebral defenseman to build my team around. An excellent pp QB, solid defensively, and one of the best players to never win a cup... Brad Park.

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