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1/21/10 "Where We're Going, We Don't Need Defense" - Lightning VS Panthers

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01-22-2011, 06:15 AM
  #101
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A Florida on Florida game on the cover of NHL.com.... Interesting....

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01-22-2011, 07:09 AM
  #102
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Havent read through the pages yet, but I had to say that the call on Allen in OT was wrong IMO. I thought he clearly swiped away the puck before he tripped Lecavalier, and it was just a bad call. Regardless, we had ample amount of chances to win the game, and it should have never gotten to a SO. This team fights, and its quite evident, but whats also evident is the lack of a killer instinct. If we could find ways to win these type of games, and be able to step on the opponents throats when we lead in these type of games, we would be much improved in the standings.

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01-22-2011, 09:31 AM
  #103
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Yeah, Stewart was awesome here.

Grabner never really got the chance here, but geez. DeBoer doesn't make these moves; Tallon does.
Are you sure that PDB doesn't have any input on these decisions?

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01-22-2011, 11:28 AM
  #104
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Lol, I was wondering how PDB would be brought up in a game where we completely outplayed the opponent but our ****** team couldn't score. You guys amaze me.

The puck was in the Lightning zone the entire game, I guess it's the coaches fault that our AHL team couldn't score.

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01-22-2011, 11:39 AM
  #105
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Grabner didn't make the team, simple as that. Don't know how much of that was the accountability thing as it was positions actually available. Perhaps waiving him wasn't the smart move, but the kid's streaky and soft. I'd like to have him here, but these guys that are on the way up will make me forget about Grabner real quick...hopefully.

Stewart was never given the right chance here. He was a top line non-checking player in the A, and he was told to be exactly that here. I said this before when he was up and down with us. Atlanta's given him the chance to be who he is, and he's making the most of it...this season.
it is. it was a tryout for him, dadanov, santo, etc. he failed. he was invisible on both ends. i don't give a **** that he has 14 goals. he's playing on an awful team and probably doing whatever he wants out there. the guys we kept have plugged away despite their inadequacies, compete every game. at the time i was unsure but, having seen him here for one completely underwhelming exhibition game, i went with tallon on the decision. i'm more confident now, based on the roster we've fielded (even if we don't make the playoffs).

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It's nice to piss away prospects. Held accountable So funny how Grabner seems to been the only one HELD ACCOUNTABLE and that was in PRE SEASON! Why didn't they just waive Olesz at the time like I said and kept Grabner. No1 would picked up Olesz and even if they did it would been a win-win situation.
grabner came out, after being told he needs to earn a spot and showed zilch, whereas santo hustled and wanted it. so you keep a guy who basically, with his play, has told you he's not a competitor or doesn't want to be here? no, sir. sorry.

you are completely wrong; there is more accountability here now than ever before and large part of that is because our depth is continuing to improve and we have prospects who've been working for a spot for years now realizing that the way to make the roster and get minutes is to... compete and produce. you have examples all over the roster of accountability and an example in germany as well (reino). you have guys being scratched.

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01-22-2011, 12:12 PM
  #106
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After playing a solid game, it's going to be interesting how Vokoun reacts on Sunday when DeBoer gives Clemmensen the start.
Looks like I predicted this one, correctly. Clemmensen starting tomorrow, according to GR's twitter.

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01-22-2011, 12:13 PM
  #107
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Looks like I predicted this one, correctly. Clemmensen starting tomorrow, according to GR's twitter.
Because Vokoun missed practice with an undisclosed injury....

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01-22-2011, 12:30 PM
  #108
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Because Vokoun missed practice with an undisclosed injury....
I think it has more to do with Clemmensen's success against his former team.
Vokoun left practice early yesterday because of that injury, and still ended up playing last night.

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01-22-2011, 03:28 PM
  #109
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it is. it was a tryout for him, dadanov, santo, etc. he failed. he was invisible on both ends. i don't give a **** that he has 14 goals. he's playing on an awful team and probably doing whatever he wants out there. the guys we kept have plugged away despite their inadequacies, compete every game. at the time i was unsure but, having seen him here for one completely underwhelming exhibition game, i went with tallon on the decision. i'm more confident now, based on the roster we've fielded (even if we don't make the playoffs).



grabner came out, after being told he needs to earn a spot and showed zilch, whereas santo hustled and wanted it. so you keep a guy who basically, with his play, has told you he's not a competitor or doesn't want to be here? no, sir. sorry.

you are completely wrong; there is more accountability here now than ever before and large part of that is because our depth is continuing to improve and we have prospects who've been working for a spot for years now realizing that the way to make the roster and get minutes is to... compete and produce. you have examples all over the roster of accountability and an example in germany as well (reino). you have guys being scratched.
Exactly. We have accountability and now people complain about it.

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01-22-2011, 04:03 PM
  #110
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Exactly. We have accountability and now people complain about it.
I'm not for accountability if it means sacrificing valuable prospects for no return whatsoever. The looming issue for the Panther's is their lack of talent, not accountability. We cannot afford to simply give away skilled players, especially in our desperate situation- a team with no players over 33 pts or 15 goals, with no elite forward talent in the prospect pool. Grabner has tied our leading goal scorer. Justifying horrible asset management with accountability will just result in yet another season without the playoffs (i.e. this year). Abstractions like accountability, to which we barely adhere to, will only further forestall us becoming successful if it results in relinquishing young talent.

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01-22-2011, 04:17 PM
  #111
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I'm not for accountability if it means sacrificing valuable prospects for no return whatsoever. The looming issue for the Panther's is their lack of talent, not accountability. We cannot afford to simply give away skilled players, especially in our desperate situation- a team with no players over 33 pts or 15 goals, with no elite forward talent in the prospect pool. Grabner has tied our leading goal scorer. Justifying horrible asset management with accountability will just result in yet another season without the playoffs (i.e. this year). Abstractions like accountability, to which we barely adhere to, will only further forestall us becoming successful if it results in relinquishing young talent.
Grabner couldn't earn a spot like Santo did on one of the worst rosters in the league. It's as simple as that. Hindsight is 20/20. He did NOTHING that warranted him having a roster spot. Ideally we keep him because he was still a somewhat young prospect but he sucked in training camp and the only way to develop him in the eyes of management was to send him to the AHL. A lot of people were mad but the decision made sense. We want competition for spots, that's why we have accountability.

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01-22-2011, 04:25 PM
  #112
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Grabner couldn't earn a spot like Santo did on one of the worst rosters in the league. It's as simple as that. Hindsight is 20/20. He did NOTHING that warranted him having a roster spot. Ideally we keep him because he was still a somewhat young prospect but he sucked in training camp and the only way to develop him in the eyes of management was to send him to the AHL. A lot of people were mad but the decision made sense. We want competition for spots, that's why we have accountability.
People harp on that point continuously, but then why not send away the other deadweight on the team earlier? Did Reinprecht earn a spot only to be exiled to Germany? Did Olesz earn a spot so he could miss 5 weeks, while McCabe played through a similar injury?

There were plenty of players at the time to hold 'accountable' (i'll use the term as much as I hate it). Proper asset management would demand that the asset with the most potential upside/future value should be retained (Grabner), and the other less valuable assets be dumped instead.

Before someone says "well, why would we pay Olesz to play in the minors", we would do it because of 'accountability'. Who cares where we pay him to play, we have to pay him either way, and he isn't exactly earning his keep in the big leagues. So by your very own argument, Olesz is safe because of his big contract. That is anything but accountability.

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01-22-2011, 04:36 PM
  #113
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People harp on that point continuously, but then why not send away the other deadweight on the team earlier? Did Reinprecht earn a spot only to be exiled to Germany? Did Olesz earn a spot so he could miss 5 weeks, while McCabe played through a similar injury?

There were plenty of players at the time to hold 'accountable' (i'll use the term as much as I hate it). Proper asset management would demand that the asset with the most potential upside/future value should be retained (Grabner), and the other less valuable assets be dumped instead.

Before someone says "well, why would we pay Olesz to play in the minors", we would do it because of 'accountability'. Who cares where we pay him to play, we have to pay him either way, and he isn't exactly earning his keep in the big leagues. So by your very own argument, Olesz is safe because of his big contract. That is anything but accountability.
Olesz is a decent player. He's just overpaid through no fault of his own. If we send Olesz down we have to fill his spot on the NHL roster. Plus we risk being on the hook for half his salary if we ever call him up. For a team with a self imposed cap this isn't realistic. We're not the Rangers.

Grabner was terrible in camp. As for your complaint about Reino he was a serviceable third/fourth line center who was bumped down the roster because Santo and Matthias earned spots. So there's the accountability. Grabner didn't put in the effort and lost his job. This was a pretty easy roster to crack. Pete's system requires a effort and as you can see this team puts in a very good effort most nights.

Maybe the scouts and GM didn't see much potential in Grabner? Maybe the made a mistake? Like I said before, ideally we keep him but there not going to give him a roster spot out of fear of losing him. They obviously didn't think too highly of him.

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01-22-2011, 04:39 PM
  #114
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People harp on that point continuously, but then why not send away the other deadweight on the team earlier? Did Reinprecht earn a spot only to be exiled to Germany? Did Olesz earn a spot so he could miss 5 weeks, while McCabe played through a similar injury?

There were plenty of players at the time to hold 'accountable' (i'll use the term as much as I hate it). Proper asset management would demand that the asset with the most potential upside/future value should be retained (Grabner), and the other less valuable assets be dumped instead.

Before someone says "well, why would we pay Olesz to play in the minors", we would do it because of 'accountability'. Who cares where we pay him to play, we have to pay him either way, and he isn't exactly earning his keep in the big leagues. So by your very own argument, Olesz is safe because of his big contract. That is anything but accountability.
rusty is an NHL player. he's not the player we all want him to be but he's a solid NHL player nonetheless. he's not dead weight. he also had a good camp, unlike grabner. it sucks but grabner wrote his own ticket out of town. everyone else came in hungry and he... did nothing. i have the sense grabner's really nothing anyhow and i hope that's how things turn out. i saw nothing in his preseason game here or in the game i witnessed on long island a couple of months ago that would lead me to believe this kid's got gamebreaking talent.

you could also argue that reino's still a reasonable bottom 6 player. he just was just the easiest (in multiple ways) to expunge to make room for dadanov.

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01-22-2011, 04:44 PM
  #115
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btw, i have to comment on that SO goal. wow, what a season of odd breaks. strictly by the book, the right call was made but, i mean, c'mon... vokoun absolutely made the save. there's no way in a fair game that should count as a goal. it was a technicality. i hope the league reviews the rules around shootouts and sets that straight because that was bad.

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01-22-2011, 04:46 PM
  #116
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rusty is an NHL player. he's not the player we all want him to be but he's a solid NHL player nonetheless. he's not dead weight. he also had a good camp, unlike grabner. it sucks but grabner wrote his own ticket out of town. everyone else came in hungry and he... did nothing. i have the sense grabner's really nothing anyhow and i hope that's how things turn out. i saw nothing in his preseason game here or in the game i witnessed on long island a couple of months ago that would lead me to believe this kid's got gamebreaking talent.

you could also argue that reino's still a reasonable bottom 6 player. he just was just the easiest (in multiple ways) to expunge to make room for dadanov.
Dadanov also didn't earn a spot on the roster in training camp, but we didn't throw him out with yesterdays trash. He was given a second chance, and has redeemed himself.

Grabner was never given this option, and that is my problem with losing him. The bottom line is, a team should always find a way to retain is assets, whether or not they impress immediately.

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01-22-2011, 04:50 PM
  #117
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Dadanov also didn't earn a spot on the roster in training camp, but we didn't throw him out with yesterdays trash. He was given a second chance, and has redeemed himself.

Grabner was never given this option, and that is my problem with losing him. The bottom line is, a team should always find a way to retain is assets, whether or not they impress immediately.
No offense, but it seems like you don't understand NHL contracts.

Dadonov/Grabner = two completely different situations. If the Panthers had it their way, Grabner would've gone to Rochester, as well.

That comparison has nothing to do with second chances, etc.

The right move would've been getting rid of Olesz. Even if we had to pay him to get him off this team.

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01-22-2011, 05:00 PM
  #118
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Grabner has 14 goals but only 4 assists.

Am I the only one that finds that odd?

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01-22-2011, 05:03 PM
  #119
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No offense, but it seems like you don't understand NHL contracts.

Dadonov/Grabner = two completely different situations. If the Panthers had it their way, Grabner would've gone to Rochester, as well.

That comparison has nothing to do with second chances, etc.

The right move would've been getting rid of Olesz. Even if we had to pay him to get him off this team.
No offense, but it seems as if you don't understand my post. I was making a point about the concept of accountability, not comparing their contracts. Grabner was held to a higher standard of accountability because he didn't have the option to get a second chance, due to his contract. The whole notion of 'accountability' is a vague,
undefinable load of ******** anyway.

Grabner has a 1-way contract, which does make it more difficult to handle his situation, but it was absolutely foolish to expect that he would make it through to Rochester. This is what I was referring to when I said we should have "found a way to retain our assets".

I'm in total agreement with you regarding Olesz. Olesz will likely be bought out or traded at the end of the season, his roster spot could have been given to Grabner.

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01-22-2011, 05:04 PM
  #120
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Grabner has 14 goals but only 4 assists.

Am I the only one that finds that odd?
Under normal circumstances, yeah, but he plays on the Islanders and no one else is scoring goals over there.

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01-22-2011, 05:07 PM
  #121
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Under normal circumstances, yeah, but he plays on the Islanders and no one else is scoring goals over there.
True, but still odd.

I wonder whats the record for fewest assists for a 25+ goal scorer.

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01-22-2011, 05:12 PM
  #122
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True, but still odd.

I wonder whats the record for fewest assists for a 25+ goal scorer.
Not sure. I remember a few years ago Svatos had at one point 20+ goals and like 2 assists. It evened out as the season went on a little bit, but still.

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01-22-2011, 05:29 PM
  #123
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No offense, but it seems as if you don't understand my post. I was making a point about the concept of accountability, not comparing their contracts. Grabner was held to a higher standard of accountability because he didn't have the option to get a second chance, due to his contract. The whole notion of 'accountability' is a vague,
undefinable load of ******** anyway.

Grabner has a 1-way contract, which does make it more difficult to handle his situation, but it was absolutely foolish to expect that he would make it through to Rochester. This is what I was referring to when I said we should have "found a way to retain our assets".

I'm in total agreement with you regarding Olesz. Olesz will likely be bought out or traded at the end of the season, his roster spot could have been given to Grabner.
no, the real competition was between the prospects. let's be real here - an NHL organization doesn't expect and normally isn't going to jettison a reliable veteran because a prospect has a good camp. normally. reino, olesz, et al weren't fighting for a roster spot, just minutes.

grabner, santo, mattias and dadanov were in different positions. erick is right.

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01-22-2011, 05:33 PM
  #124
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no, the real competition was between the prospects. let's be real here - an NHL organization doesn't expect and normally isn't going to jettison a reliable veteran because a prospect has a good camp. normally. reino, olesz, et al weren't fighting for a roster spot, just minutes.

grabner, santo, mattias and dadanov were in different positions. erick is right.
Then not everyone is being held to the same standard, and therefore accountability is undermined.

Do you see the flaw in your reasoning here?

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01-22-2011, 05:36 PM
  #125
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Since when is Rostislav Olesz a "reliable veteran?"

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