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And we pick Kyle Chipchura....

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06-26-2004, 09:23 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan
I just want to clarify my comments.

I was never a Chipchura fan, so I'm biased. I don't like picking players with minimal ceilings in the first round. It's just the way I am. It's the way I run my teams in EHM and fantasy leagues. I view the draft as not only getting young players for your team's future, but collecting ASSETS. That's why I want the guy with the highest ceiling.

I would have been OK with the pick if the Meszaros/Schremp/Korpikosi group was already picked. They weren't, that's why I am dissapointed. I just loved what I was reading on Meszaros and I am convinced the Sens were ready to celebrate when they got him. He was REALLY someone I wanted and figured we had no chance to get at 18. This team needed a bluechip D more than we needed a Chipchura IMO. Lapierre who is developping very nicely looks like he will be a player in the Chippy mold. It was not a HUGE need for us. I understand Korpikosi was a risk since he never played in a men's league and that Schremp has ? around him but not drafting Meszaros killed me.

I wish Chippy luck though and hope he can be a solid 3rd line center for us.

#1 Don't be ashame of your opinions. You don't like Chipchura, I hate Chipchura too. If someone don't want to read me because I think we just waste a good pick for a 3rd liner with leadership, then fine.

I'm a HABS fan & I was one of the most ECSTATIC player when they draft Kastsitsyn last year, so NO ONE can pretent that I always whine about our pick.

#2 I totally agree with you about the ceiling importancy. When all you heard about a player being draft is ''character, leadership, toughness, well behave, good kid'' instead ''skilled player, offensively gifted, beautiful skater, magician with his hand''. You know you are IN DEEP **** !!!!!

#3 I was very pissed off to see Radulov being picked @ 15 but when Korpikoski was available @ 18th , I was hoping so bad he was the name being called by Timmins. Also Ondrej Meszaros was my #2 D on this draft, I really believe in him & Ottawa got one of the steal of this draft (with Schwarz 17th & Tukonen 11th).

#4 It never cease to amaze me how we never learn from our mistake : The Montreal Canadiens are proud to select Lindsay Vallis, Turner Stevenson, Brent Bilodeau, David Wilkie, Brad Brown, Terry Ryan, Matt Higgins & now KYLE CHIPCHURA. THIS IS MY NEW SIGNATURE PERIOD !

#5 I'm really hoping someday we will start to think as a fan & as a franchise that we should build our own IDENTITY. When Edmonton pick on the draft, succesfull or not they have an IDENTITY & that's a team with puckhandling & fast skating. In Montreal we have a FAST TEAM & we could be very exciting 4-5 years down the road & we always read BIG FORWARD. I don't believe in that. Tampa Bay won the cup with their speed & skills not with some BIG FORWARDS.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm happy for the fans who want Chipchura, I'm really hoping I'll eat CROW but I'm so pessimistic about Chipchura, DAMN !!!!

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06-26-2004, 09:24 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan
We drafted for a need.

That's why I am sick.

IMO, there were lots of interesting players still on board that would have been much better picks.

It's my opinion, destroy it if you want.
Timmins in an interview prior to the draft said drafting the absolute best player available was the only way to go for him. Don't you think, having seen multiple times all those kids, that there might be a chance he and Gainey really thought Chipchura was the BPA? Or at least, everything else being equal, that they should go for a need (but only if everything else was equal)?.

What pisses me off with our fans (and I'm not pointing the finger at you here Marc) is that most of the guys who whine we only took a checker or that there was much better players available didn't even see those players play and are basing it all on second hand info. I've seen Chipchura play. I've seen Schremp and Wolski play. I am almost convinced that Chippy will become the best pro of the 3. Just because Wolski is a big softy that lacks fire when he plays and Schremp has proven he will have serious difficulties adapt to a system (and I'm really not convinced all his dipsy-doodling will do him that much good at the pro level). Schremp is lucky to go with an all out attack team in the offensive minded West. In the East with the Habs, he would have struggled big time.

Let's give the benefit of the doubt to our scouts who worked all year to determine who was the best players in their mind and not bring them down in flames just because X scouting report was stating Chipchura was going to become a checker. As I've said before, Chipchura has some very good untaped offensive upside that the ones whining seem to reject or ignore without thinking twice. The guy IS a good player with great hands, excellent speed and above average vision and hockey sense. He truly was 1st round caliber and had he not had this groin injury that slowed him down in the 2nd half of the season, he would probably had gone much sooner.

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06-26-2004, 09:26 PM
  #78
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Guy Callabero,
I think you meant to say ..that there hasn't been a team that has won the stanley cup without a NORTH american player.

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06-26-2004, 09:26 PM
  #79
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Guy Callabero,
I think you meant to say ..that there hasn't been a team that has won the stanley cup without a NORTH american player.

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06-26-2004, 09:30 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy LaFleur
*continues to shake his head*

Wolski was our man. 6'3", 200 lb. Excellent offensive skill. Would easily become our own Alex Kovalev and we wouldn't need to keep trading for them.
Easily? Give me a brake. Did you see him play??? The guy doesn't have the 10th of Kovalev's skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy LaFleur
Maybe you can't see it, but... Wolski - Higgins/Pleks - Kastsitsyn. Beautiful line.
You're right, I can't see it, because having seen Wolski play, I know I don't care much for that big soft floater.

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06-26-2004, 09:30 PM
  #81
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This is an interesting debate, but Marc raises a great point about not limiting yourself in Round 1. You can teach 18-year-old kids a lot of the things Chipchura already has, but you probably will never be able to teach Chipchura talent. Either he has it, and it's well hidden right now, or he doesn't.

It's fair to say that Gainey did a good job of balancing out last year's high-risk/high-reward first-rounder with a safe and ready WHLer this time around. However, aren't third-line checking players with ample heart and leadership readily available throughout the NHL??? How did the Habs land Begin? Langdon? Dowd? None of these guys are first-round material, but ALL were important players for the hockey club in 2003-04.

So, you DO need these players to win. However, you only get so many first-round draft picks and you better make them count. In '96, the Habs made a similar choice and got burned with Matt Higgins. A weak draft that year, you say? Well, wouldn't Daniel Briere have been a better pick that year? If the team had Briere, would they have drafted Ribeiro two years later? Would they have been more successful in the late 1990's? Ya never know.

IF Chipchura becomes an impact player, and proves to be the absolute 'best player available' at No. 18, I'll eat crow along with several others. However, at this point, I just don't see it. As things stand, Chipchura will likely be the eventual replacement for Bonk as the big, third-line center. I'm not sure Gainey had to acquire BOTH shutdown centers today, while ignoring a few pretty intriguing prospects along the way--namely Meszaros, Schremp and especially Korpikoski.

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06-26-2004, 09:32 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by espion
I am not knocking Chipchura. He may turn out to be a good 3rd line checker, but that' s all he'll turn out to be. If he can only rack up 15 goals in the WHL, how will he ever rack up a 25-30 Linden-esque total in the NHL?
Sorry to brake it to you bud but that's not how it works. If Timmins and Gainey didn't see room to improve offensively for Chipchura, they probably would not have determined he was the BPA.

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06-26-2004, 09:39 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Fan
I have a right to NOT LIKE Kyle Chipchura, I have right to an opinion. I think this guy is not worth a 1st round pick. A damn 3rd liner with leadership WHO CARES !!!! It's not worth a 18th OVERALL PICK.
You're absolutely right. However Russian Fan, don't be surprised if some posters, me included, question the rational behind your opinion, when your main argumement is that since we drafted big westerners like Higgins and Ryan that did not pan out in the past, Chipchura will turn out to be the same kind of pick. That my friend is, no offense, a very weak argument.

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06-26-2004, 09:52 PM
  #84
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I have total faith in Gainey,Timmins and the scouting staff. It's easy for us to sit back and question a selection being the armchair scouts we are. But Timmins and the staff have seen the players play all year and in their minds picked the BPA.

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06-26-2004, 09:54 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchausen
You're absolutely right. However Russian Fan, don't be surprised if some posters, me included, question the rational behind your opinion, when your main argumement is that since we drafted big westerners like Higgins and Ryan that did not pan out in the past, Chipchura will turn out to be the same kind of pick. That my friend is, no offense, a very weak argument.
If you read most of my post about Chipchura , you know the comparison I made with our PRECEDENT BUST where not my main arguments.

A) When all you heard about a player being draft is ''character, leadership, toughness, well behave, good kid'' instead ''skilled player, offensively gifted, beautiful skater, magician with his hand''. You know you are IN DEEP s*it !!!!!

B) I was very pissed off to see Radulov being picked @ 15 but when Korpikoski was available @ 18th , I was hoping so bad he was the name being called by Timmins. Also Ondrej Meszaros was my #2 D on this draft.

C) It never cease to amaze me how we never learn from our mistake : The Montreal Canadiens are proud to select Lindsay Vallis, Turner Stevenson, Brent Bilodeau, David Wilkie, Brad Brown, Terry Ryan, Matt Higgins & now KYLE CHIPCHURA. THIS IS MY NEW SIGNATURE PERIOD !

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I never heard 1 good thing that to me he was worth it a 1st round pick & mostly a TOP 20.

Some teams this year did go for the ''SAFE PICK'' which means the SAFER PICK to be in the NHL SOMEDAY & I have no doubt that Chipchura will be on our team in the future but I dont believe he will be an on-ice impact player & that's why I hate that pick.

To conclude, I understand some fan with other philosophy than mine but to me there's one question ? Where you put Chipchura in our prospect pool ? To me he's not worth to be above Yann Danis & I'm not even high on him (but I acknowledge his potential). Damn I would even put Marcel Hossa over Chipchura.

When you see Meszaros , I would put him #5 maybe #4 on our list & same thing apply for Korpikoski.

People can judge me for having a different taste but so far in close to 2 years on HF, I always been respected & being considered an intelligent poster. I think it will remain the same even If I truly hate our 2004 1st round pick.

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06-26-2004, 10:08 PM
  #86
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Good pick as far as I am concerned. I too have seen Chipchura play and I came away impressed. He was the leader on a PA team that had guys like Colliton etc (Chipchura was way better than Colliton is my memory serves me correctly).

I would also like to point out that before we judge him offensively, perhaps we should see what he does next year. Lots of guys who are drafted don't put up a point per game when they are 18.

I'm glad I will be able to watch our new 1st rounder kick the Blades ass all next year.


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06-26-2004, 10:21 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Fan
#3 I was very pissed off to see Radulov being picked @ 15 but when Korpikoski was available @ 18th , I was hoping so bad he was the name being called by Timmins. Also Ondrej Meszaros was my #2 D on this draft, I really believe in him & Ottawa got one of the steal of this draft (with Schwarz 17th & Tukonen 11th).
First of all, Chipchura will have a better career than Korpikoski before it's all said and done and you can take that to the bank.

I'm a firm believer that Chipchura has untapped offensive potential, that's why I don't consider him a "safe pick". I could honestly see him being a 55-60 point per season guy and it'll be interesting to see if his offensive game develops. It seems just because he has good defensive awareness, he's automatically plugged as a third-liner, yet that's just his downside.

A little disappointed about not picking up Meszaros, since I like him a lot and see him as a future top pairing guy. But since Timmins and Savard have taken over, we haven't had a bad draft, so I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

"IN BOB WE TRUST"

PS: Yemelin in the third round made my day as well.

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06-26-2004, 10:30 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Fan
A) When all you heard about a player being draft is ''character, leadership, toughness, well behave, good kid'' instead ''skilled player, offensively gifted, beautiful skater, magician with his hand''. You know you are IN DEEP s*it !!!!!
I don't know if I ever asked this to you (don't want to sound like I'm harassing you, it's all in good fun ) but have you actually seen Chipchura play? Because I see you refer to him with what has been said or written on him, but I get the feeling you'll see why I think you're wrong when you actually see him play during training camp.

Personally I couldn't care less about the little bribes of scouting reports here and there about him. I know what I saw, and what I saw is a great 2-way player with great skating, above average hockey sense (a thing that cannot be thaught) and excellent hands and playmaking abilities. On top of that, he's also good in every other aspect of the game. He must be doing something right offensively too as he was quaterbacking the PP for Canada.

Again, like I've said many times, I would not be defending and praising Chipchura as much as I've been doing if I did not see untaped offensive potential in him that could make a very solid 50-60 pts 2nd line center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Fan
C) It never cease to amaze me how we never learn from our mistake : The Montreal Canadiens are proud to select Lindsay Vallis, Turner Stevenson, Brent Bilodeau, David Wilkie, Brad Brown, Terry Ryan, Matt Higgins & now KYLE CHIPCHURA. THIS IS MY NEW SIGNATURE PERIOD !
Most of those guys were drafted by incompetents. We have one of the best scouting team in the NHL. What would be silly is keep yourself from drafting a big westerner you're very high on because of our recent insuccess. That, would be dumb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Fan
To conclude, I understand some fan with other philosophy than mine but to me there's one question ? Where you put Chipchura in our prospect pool ? To me he's not worth to be above Yann Danis & I'm not even high on him (but I acknowledge his potential). Damn I would even put Marcel Hossa over Chipchura.
I would put Chipchura #4, right on par with Higgins, ahead of Danis, which is a very logical spot for an 18th overall. No way I'd be putting Hossa ahead of him, just no way. Chipchura has enough offensive skills to be on par with Hossa (aside from his shot, but Hossa never uses it anyway...) but Chipchura just does everything else that much better. Unlike Hossa, he has the head, work ethic and character it takes to reach max upside.

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06-26-2004, 10:33 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchausen
I don't know if I ever asked this to you (don't want to sound like I'm harassing you, it's all in good fun ) but have you actually seen Chipchura play? Because I see you refer to him with what has been said or written on him, but I get the feeling you'll see why I think you're wrong when you actually see him play during training camp.

Personally I couldn't care less about the little bribes of scouting reports here and there about him. I know what I saw, and what I saw is a great 2-way player with great skating, above average hockey sense (a thing that cannot be thaught) and excellent hands and playmaking abilities. On top of that, he's also good in every other aspect of the game. He must be doing something right offensively too as he was quaterbacking the PP for Canada.

Again, like I've said many times, I would not be defending and praising Chipchura as much as I've been doing if I did not see untaped offensive potential in him that could make a very solid 50-60 pts 2nd line center.



Most of those guys were drafted by incompetents. We have one of the best scouting team in the NHL. What would be silly is keep yourself from drafting a big westerner you're very high on because of our recent insuccess. That, would be dumb.



I would put Chipchura #4, right on par with Higgins, ahead of Danis, which is a very logical spot for an 18th overall. No way I'd be putting Hossa ahead of him, just no way. Chipchura has enough offensive skills to be on par with Hossa (aside from his shot, but Hossa never uses it anyway...) but Chipchura just does everything else that much better. Unlike Hossa, he has the head, work ethic and character it takes to reach max upside.
I respect your opinion & yes indeed it's all in good fun.

I hope I'll eat crow someday & I'm sure you won't hesitate to remind me

EDIT : I've seen Chipchura twice

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06-26-2004, 10:45 PM
  #90
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I cannot believe how many people here are moaning about our pick in Chipchura!

The last time I looked a team was made of a 23 man roster, those usually team consist of 4 lines, 7 D and 2 Goalies. Have all 23 players on an NHL team be All Stars or all 1st line players, Top Dmen and #1 goalies?

NO.

Every team drafts for position they need help and strength in, we need size up the middle and we needed depth on the 3rd to 4th line...BG addressed that, and addressed that in a good way with a real character player.

Why would you question this pick now when we haven't questioned Savard and Timmins in the past?

In a draft where it isn't a great draft to begin with you always draft the best available player, this kid is and was that player. He wasn't ranked so high by Central Scouting and held in such high regard by scouts, junior players and coaches for being average.

Why not take the solid pick, a guy who will be a leader on your team, hard working and potentially a corner stone and captain for your franchise for years to come?

Picks like Radulov do not address a current need on our team and they are very high risk. Schremp does not address our need for size and he too is a risk pick with his attitude, and if Dale Hunter questions your heart and dedication I think that is a good indication of what type of player he maybe in the dressing room. If anyone knows heart and work ethic it is Hunter.

They only other player over Chipchura I would take at that point is Korpikoski, but how much of his year is a credit to his line mates in fellow first rounders Tukonen and Nokelainen? Same could be said with Ladd the 4th overall pick who played with Getzlaf all year.

We drafted a player who at one point was considered the #1 North American prospect in December, but because of injury and a offensive drought he dropped in the final standings to #4 in North America and luckly slid to us at #18 overall. Who knows what this guy can do healthy and with the pressures of the draft now behind him. I would not be surprised if this guy isn't on the WJC team for Canada next year because of his leadership and style of play...maybe then people here won't question this pick, but appreciate the player we have coming to the Habs in 2-3 years or sooner. This is one of only a select few players that some scouts and experts thinks is maybe NHL ready now.

Who knows Chipchura could be our Dale Hunter, I would be very happy with that!

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06-26-2004, 10:47 PM
  #91
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I cannot believe how many people here are moaning about our pick in Chipchura!

The last time I looked a team was made of a 23 man roster, those usually team consist of 4 lines, 7 D and 2 Goalies. Have all 23 players on an NHL team be All Stars or all 1st line players, Top Dmen and #1 goalies?

NO.

Every team drafts for position they need help and strength in, we need size up the middle and we needed depth on the 3rd to 4th line...BG addressed that, and addressed that in a good way with a real character player.

Why would you question this pick now when we haven't questioned Savard and Timmins in the past?

In a draft where it isn't a great draft to begin with you always draft the best available player, this kid is and was that player. He wasn't ranked so high by Central Scouting and held in such high regard by scouts, junior players and coaches for being average.

Why not take the solid pick, a guy who will be a leader on your team, hard working and potentially a corner stone and captain for your franchise for years to come?

Picks like Radulov do not address a current need on our team and they are very high risk. Schremp does not address our need for size and he too is a risk pick with his attitude, and if Dale Hunter questions your heart and dedication I think that is a good indication of what type of player he maybe in the dressing room. If anyone knows heart and work ethic it is Hunter.

They only other player over Chipchura I would take at that point is Korpikoski, but how much of his year is a credit to his line mates in fellow first rounders Tukonen and Nokelainen? Same could be said with Ladd the 4th overall pick who played with Getzlaf all year.

We drafted a player who at one point was considered the #1 North American prospect in December, but because of injury and a offensive drought he dropped in the final standings to #4 in North America and luckly slid to us at #18 overall. Who knows what this guy can do healthy and with the pressures of the draft now behind him. I would not be surprised if this guy is on the WJC team for Canada next year because of his leadership and style of play...maybe then people here won't question this pick, but appreciate the player we have coming to the Habs in 2-3 years or sooner. This is one of only a select few players that some scouts and experts thinks is maybe NHL ready now.

Who knows Chipchura could be our Dale Hunter, I would be very happy with that!

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06-26-2004, 10:47 PM
  #92
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I really like what The Habs are doing at the draft table. There seems to be a common thread with recent draft picks - strong work ethic. We all know that the superstars in this league are where they are, because they work harder than anyone else on the ice on most nights. If someone wants to put in the effort, they can supercede their potential. One name comes to mind........Ryder.

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06-26-2004, 10:49 PM
  #93
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Wow What a day it has been for me. I just got back from work when what do I find out the habs pick up Kyle Chipchura a player I would of never imagine still available at the 18 spot. And just 5 minutes ago I find out that we pick up radek bonk. What a day it has been for me. Were still in June and allready I cant waite for next season. Its going to be a long summer.

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06-26-2004, 11:11 PM
  #94
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At first, I absolutly disliked the pick. I was holding my breath who Meszaros, Schremp or Korpikoski. Chipchura was 4th in my mind... and a far cry after the first three.

However, after talking to some other posters (not Habs fan mind you), I think that he might have some untapped offensive potential and could become a very solid second liner. That would be great by me..

By the way, a Higgins-Schremp duo would be absolutly terrific if they pan out. I hope that in the next few years we'll draft the guy who will replace Saku when he'll be gone though. He'll be hard to come by..

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06-26-2004, 11:12 PM
  #95
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Drafting 18 year olds is a bit of a crapshoot, it is very difficult to predict how a player will develop.

I remember Lou Lamoriello saying that Souray had "stopped developing" and that made him expendable. Souray was almost 24 when he was traded to Montreal and I think one can safely say he was wrong.

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06-26-2004, 11:12 PM
  #96
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I have not participated in this debate but here is my view on this...

I think that BG, Timmins and all selected what they though was the BPA. This probably means to then the best blend of character, talent, physical attributes etc.. for a targeted position (forward, Goalie, Dmen in that order IMO).

In addition to that when you draft I think you also need to look at what you have in house....
1. I keep hearing we needed to go with Korpikoski when in fact we have our own better Korpikoski in Kastsitsyn
2. I keep hearing Wolski when we have a quasi equivalent player in Marcel Hossa
3. I hear the name Meszaros when we have a player very simmilar to him in Ron Hainsey.

Remember these three names Kastistsyn, Hossa, Hainsey.. The later two might have been forgotten but they where picked for attributes that they had at the time that looke a lot like Wolski and Meszaros. I know most of you see these two guys as busts but I am sure they will make it to the next level. They have all what is needed to make it.... People on this board sometime talk about things they have no clue about, things like saying Hossa as no work ethic which could not be more wrong... (he has a confidence problem that is curable IMO).

Two years ago we selected Higgins who projected to be a third line player no more then that. He completely changed and is now a threat offensively. Give Kyle a chance and moreso give him time to develop. We might have found a player that will suprise a few years down the road. Perhaps we could find a Trevor Linden or a Mike Ricci or even our own Jason Arnott. The fact is if you have one of those guys in your team when they are good you are better. We filled a void by picking the BPA available on the Timmins list. It is not my list but I sure will trust it a whole lot more then mine...

Just my 2 cents...

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06-26-2004, 11:30 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania
According to MacKenzie and McGuire

Trent McLeary was the scout for our team who saw the most of Chipchura. That should tell you all you need to know about his grit and character.

Now don't get me wrong, im not comparing the two as Chip is a far more skilled player than McLeary ever was, just pointing out that i believe this guy will be a warrior for us.
The last WHL player we drafted is Milroy in the early second round of 2001 draft... Hope Mcleary has improved as a scout!

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Old
06-26-2004, 11:45 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHabsArea
The last WHL player we drafted is Milroy in the early second round of 2001 draft... Hope Mcleary has improved as a scout!
What's wrong with Milroy??

He disappointed in Hamilton at the start of the year, but fact is he didn't get a lot of ice time. After the trade of Balej his play improved greatly and he was one of the top 4 bulldog forwards over the last 20 games and the playoffs IMO (I would only put Perez, Pleks, Higgins, ahead of him.)

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Old
06-26-2004, 11:46 PM
  #99
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Chippy adds something that this team's prospects were lacking, some big size and grit to go with his resume of good skating, faceoffs skills, work ethic and leadership. He complements some of our other flashier guys, but you need a nice combo of all to win. Let's not forget that he ended up second on Team Canada in scoring at the U-18 this April, so it is not as if he never ends up on the scoresheet. He is also one of the 44 invited to the WJC camp this summer, which is not bad for an 18 year old.

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Old
06-26-2004, 11:52 PM
  #100
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Je suis très déçu du choix du Canadien en 1ère ronde. Ils n'ont pas choisi le meilleur joueur disponible, ça c'est certain. Chipchura va devenir au mieux un joueur de soutien, un plombier qui va jouer sur la 3ème ligne. Me semble que c'est pas fort pour un choix de 1ère ronde. Mezjaros, Schremp, Korpikovski auraient tous été de meilleurs choix à mon avis. Des joueurs talentueux, on ne peut jamais en avoir assez. Des joueurs de soutien, par contre, ils sont bcp plus faciles à trouver!

Je crois sincèrement que le Canadien n'a pas choisi le meilleur joueur disponible donc a gaspillé son choix. Point à ligne.

En plus, ils obtiennent l'ineffable Radek Bonk, le joueur qui remise son coeur et son bâton de hockey lorsque les séries commencent! Échanger Garon va revenir les hanter je pense, Théo le chokeux n'est pas la solution. Il est mieux de bien goaler le beau José.

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