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Iggy's Real Value

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02-18-2011, 01:50 PM
  #1
FLAMES666
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Iggy's Real Value

Obviously he is not available but looking back at all the these trades today especially the Kaberle one, what do you think Iggy would of fetched at this trade deadline?

Just find it funny because some Bruin fans weren't willing to trade a roster player a 1st and Colbrone for Iggy and they basically swapped that for Kaberle today.

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02-18-2011, 02:23 PM
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Well judging by the main board, it seems that many Bruins fans are pissed about what they gave up for Kaberle too.

Iginla would easily fetch that, and more IMO.

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02-18-2011, 02:30 PM
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I think a big part is Colborne is so over hyped that Bruin fans think he is the next Joe Thornton. But after seeing what was given up for him the Schenn and a 1st is definitely not as crazy as everyone was making it sound.

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02-18-2011, 02:31 PM
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No, and in fact it may not have been enough.

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02-18-2011, 02:46 PM
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I think Simmonds, Schenn and a 1st would of been more than fair and that would of helped us out in the long run. But I'm glad Iggy is still here. I want to see him hit 1000 points as a Flame.

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02-18-2011, 04:52 PM
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I said it before and will again... Iggy would garner a Pronger-like return

Pronger to Ahm
- 1st in 2007
- Conditional 1st in 2008 (if they reached finals)
- 2nd in 2008
- Ladislav Smid (Ducks #1 Defensive Prospect, rated 8B by HF)
- Joffrey Lupul (23yr old 25g/50pt roster player)

Pronger to Phi
- 1st in 2009
- 1st in 2010
- conditional 3rd in 2010 (if they win the Cup in 2010)
- Luca Sbisa (Flyers #1 Defensive Prospect, rated 8B by HF)
- Joffrey Lupul (26yr old 25g/50pt roster player)

notice how highly rated the prospects were in these deals? they actually carried a higher rating than Brayden Schenn does

and considering guys like Mike Fisher & Kris Versteeg get a 1st and another pick... Iginla's return would be of epic proportions

at the draft I would not settle for less than...

- 2011 1st
- Conditional 2012 1st (if they reach finals)
- Top prospect (8.0b or 8.5c, or top 10 ranked prospect)
- under 25 roster player with 20+ goals/40+ points

using the Kings for example...
- 1st in 2011
- Cond. 1st in 2012
- Brayden Schenn (8.0c, ranked 5th overall)
- Wayne Simmonds (not quite as strong offensively as I'd like, but adds in intangibles)

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02-18-2011, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
at the draft I would not settle for less than...

- 2011 1st
- Conditional 2012 1st (if they reach finals)
- Top prospect (8.0b or 8.5c, or top 10 ranked prospect)
- under 25 roster player with 20+ goals/40+ points
I'd say the top prospect must be a forward.

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02-18-2011, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
and considering guys like Mike Fisher & Kris Versteeg get a 1st and another pick... Iginla's return would be of epic proportions


using the Kings for example...
- 1st in 2011
- Cond. 1st in 2012
- Brayden Schenn (8.0c, ranked 5th overall)
- Wayne Simmonds (not quite as strong offensively as I'd like, but adds in intangibles)
This is they type of deal that Iginla should get, Sutter would of never had the mind to pull something like this off. He would of traded Iggy for Staal straight up. I doubt Feaster would ever consider trading Iginla, but whoever our next GM is, hopefully they have the intelligence to get this kind of a return IF Iginla ever does leavein a deal .

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02-18-2011, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
This is they type of deal that Iginla should get, Sutter would of never had the mind to pull something like this off. He would of traded Iggy for Staal straight up. I doubt Feaster would ever consider trading Iginla, but whoever our next GM is, hopefully they have the intelligence to get this kind of a return IF Iginla ever does leavein a deal .
if Sutter was willing to move Iginla for a guy like Staal that deal would have been done a long time ago... you need to pull your head from your ass and realize more often than not Sutter won trades... he made 2 or 3 bad deals and everyone forgets all the good trades where he easily won

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02-19-2011, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
if Sutter was willing to move Iginla for a guy like Staal that deal would have been done a long time ago... you need to pull your head from your ass and realize more often than not Sutter won trades... he made 2 or 3 bad deals and everyone forgets all the good trades where he easily won
Any suggestions on how to get my head out? I'm having some difficulties.

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02-19-2011, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
if Sutter was willing to move Iginla for a guy like Staal that deal would have been done a long time ago... you need to pull your head from your ass and realize more often than not Sutter won trades... he made 2 or 3 bad deals and everyone forgets all the good trades where he easily won
Agree take the kipprusoff trade for example. One of the best trades the flames have made. Got a franchise, vezina winning goalie, for a 2 round pick.

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02-19-2011, 02:07 PM
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Agree take the kipprusoff trade for example. One of the best trades the flames have made. Got a franchise, vezina winning goalie, for a 2 round pick.
I don't think anyone in the hockey world would say Sutter didn't make some good trades. But if you look at his track the last 2 and half years that he was in charge here, he obviously lost sight of what his objective was. He made a series of several bad trades (and it was more than just 2 to 3). The Sutter that left here at the end of his tenure would not of made a good deal if he traded Iginla.

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02-19-2011, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I don't think anyone in the hockey world would say Sutter didn't make some good trades. But if you look at his track the last 2 and half years that he was in charge here, he obviously lost sight of what his objective was. He made a series of several bad trades (and it was more than just 2 to 3). The Sutter that left here at the end of his tenure would not of made a good deal if he traded Iginla.
I agree somewhat. Sure he did make some bad moves and it was starting to hurt the organization because he was trying to win the cup every year instead of taking time and building a team that would have "the cup come to them." but the guy wasnt an idiot he knew iginlas worth

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02-19-2011, 03:26 PM
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I agree somewhat. Sure he did make some bad moves and it was starting to hurt the organization because he was trying to win the cup every year instead of taking time and building a team that would have "the cup come to them." but the guy wasnt an idiot he knew iginlas worth
I won't argue that, but I go by his track record. Look at what he got for Phaneuf, (and clearly trading Aulie was a huge mistake looking back now). We got spare parts for a marquee asset. You cannot expect if Sutter was in charge of trading Iginla that the return of that trade would of been hugely different if you go by Sutter's history.

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02-19-2011, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I don't think anyone in the hockey world would say Sutter didn't make some good trades. But if you look at his track the last 2 and half years that he was in charge here, he obviously lost sight of what his objective was. He made a series of several bad trades (and it was more than just 2 to 3). The Sutter that left here at the end of his tenure would not of made a good deal if he traded Iginla.
lets have a look at every trade Sutter made in the last 3 years...

Ian White & Brett Sutter for Anton Babchuck & Tom Kostopoulos
- Flames win

Jason Jaffray & conditional 7th in 2013 for Logan MacMillan & conditional 7th in 2013
- Kind of an irrelevant trade in the end but moved a career AHLer for a kid 4 years removed from being drafted ahead of Backlund

6th Round pick for Henrik Karlson
- Flames win

Riley Armstrong for Andy Delmore
- Heat win, seems irrelevant but with the injuries on the blueline the Heat desperately needed a move like this to go on their mini-run in the playoffs

Curtis McElhinney for Vesa Toskala
- Flames win

Aaron Johnson & a 3rd in 2011 for Steve Staios
- Flames lose

Dustin Boyd for 4th in 2010 (Bill Arnold)
- No win/loss, less than a year later Boyd isn't even in the NHL and Arnold is off to College

Olli Jokinen & Brandon Prust for Ales Kotalik & Chris Higgins
- Flames lose

Dion Phaneuf, Fredrik Sjostrom & Keith Aulie for Ian White, Matt Stajan, Niklas Hagman & Jamal Mayers
- No win/loss, pretty much every player involved has had a down year... Leafs got the 'best player' but we re-allocated his 6.5 million between 2 forwards and are better off without Phaneuf.. and lets be honest here we know now with ownership telling Feaster to win this season that Sutter wasn't going to be allowed to move Dion for a package of picks and prospects

Kyle Greentree for Aaron Johnson
- Flames win

Anton Stralman for 3rd in 2010 (Max Reinhart)
- No win/loss, looked like a loss at first but Reinhart is making it look like a win now

Wayne Primeau & 2nd in 2011 for Anton Stralman, Colin White & 7th in 2012
- Flames lose, but it was a salary cap trade

Future Considerations (not exercised) for Keith Seabrook
- Flames win

84th Overall Pick (Nicolas Deslauriers) & 107th Overall Pick (Garrett Wilson) for 74th Overall Pick (Ryan Howse)
- Flames win

Jordan Leopold & 67th Overall (Josh Birkholz) pick for Jay Bouwmeester
- Flames win

Jim Vandermeer for Brandon Prust
- Flames win, I liked Vandermeer better but shedding the 2.3 million contract was all win

20th Overall pick (Jacob Josefson) for 23rd Overall Pick (Tim Erixon) & 84th Overall Pick (Traded before used, see 3 trades above)

2nd in 2009 (Stefan Elliot), Ryan Wilson, Lawrence Lycholat for Jordan Leopold
- No win/loss, Wilson has turned intosomething decent but Leopold stepped up big time with the injuries to Regehr, Sarich & Giordano and was a big reason we even last 6 games

Matthew Lombardi, Brandon Prust, 2010 1st (Brandon Gormley) for Olli Jokinen & 3rd in 2009 (67th, later traded, see 4 trades above)
- Both win & loss, Jokinen never worked out as expected, but we were declared heavy winners at the time of the deal by almost everone and we ended up getting the Pick that led to Bouwmeester... I know you will cry and say this trade was all lose MW but you can't ignore what it looked like at the time

2nd in 2010 (Bradley Ross) for Rene Bourque
- flames win

Tim Ramholt for Kyle Greentree
- no win/loss

Alex Tanguay & 5th in 2008 (Maxim Trunev) for 1st in 2008 (Greg Nemisz), 2nd in 2009 (later traded, see 4 trades above)
- Flames win, Tanguay requested a trade and we managed to draft our #2 prospect with the pick

1st in 2008 (Jake Gardiner) & 2nd in 2009 (Brian Drumoulin) for Mike Cammalleri & 2nd in 2008 (Mitch Wahl)
- Flames win

Dave Gorman for Tim Burke
- no win/loss, even better is I don't know who either of these guys are

3rd in 2009 (Adam Morrison) for Jim Vandermeer
- Flames win


_____________________________________

So where are all these 'bad trades"... you got Staios, Kotalik, Primeau, maybe the Phaneuf & maybe the 1st Jokinen trade

Sutters image shifted because the Staios, Kotalik & Phaneuf deals were all within a month of each other... if they were spread out people wouldn't over analyze them the way they do... it is more than fair to say 1 month of trades cost Sutter his job and makes people forget all the good he did in the other 6.5 years he was our GM

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02-19-2011, 03:28 PM
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I won't argue that, but I go by his track record. Look at what he got for Phaneuf, (and clearly trading Aulie was a huge mistake looking back now). We got spare parts for a marquee asset. You cannot expect if Sutter was in charge of trading Iginla that the return of that trade would of been hugely different if you go by Sutter's history.
really moving Aulie was a huge mistake? get real... he would be no better than our 3rd best defensive prospect (and I only give him that credit because of the health problems of Pelch & Negrin as both were ahead of him at the time of the trade)

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02-19-2011, 03:43 PM
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really moving Aulie was a huge mistake? get real... he would be no better than our 3rd best defensive prospect (and I only give him that credit because of the health problems of Pelch & Negrin as both were ahead of him at the time of the trade)
I'm not going to argue with you about this, but I think it was a bad trade because Aulie did not have to be included in that deal at all. He was basically a throw in by Sutter, Burke would of made that deal with or without him. The reason I said it was a mistake is because he has actually grown into quite a nice player. And he would be ahead of both Pelech and Negrin regardless of health issues. The Flames lack good prospects, and Aulie was a decent one. It was a mistake moving him.

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02-19-2011, 03:55 PM
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if Negrin and Pelech were %100 healthy, no way would i take Aulie over them. he's decent, but i've always said he might not have the footspeed to be a solid NHLer

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02-19-2011, 03:57 PM
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I'm not going to argue with you about this, but I think it was a bad trade because Aulie did not have to be included in that deal at all. He was basically a throw in by Sutter, Burke would of made that deal with or without him. The reason I said it was a mistake is because he has actually grown into quite a nice player. And he would be ahead of both Pelech and Negrin regardless of health issues. The Flames lack good prospects, and Aulie was a decent one. It was a mistake moving him.
what no comparing Aulie to Niklas Lidstrom?

Aulie ws irrelvant here, the Leafs wantd a prospect with some potential and so we gave that up... Aulie only looks good because he jumped from #5 on the Flames prospect depth chart to #1 on the Leafs

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02-19-2011, 04:08 PM
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lets have a look at every trade Sutter made in the last 3 years...

Sutters image shifted because the Staios, Kotalik & Phaneuf deals were all within a month of each other... if they were spread out people wouldn't over analyze them the way they do... it is more than fair to say 1 month of trades cost Sutter his job and makes people forget all the good he did in the other 6.5 years he was our GM
I was actually of fan of the first Jokinen trade, and I will stand by that now. It didn't work out, hind sight is 20/20 for assessing all trades whether they were good or bad.

The second Jokinen trade was a lose in my mind. The Boyd one was as well because if Sutter didn't make that trade at all, Boyd would of been a RFA at seasons end and if any team would of signed him we would of got a minimum 3rd round pick as compensation, poor assest management. The Phaneuf trade was a lose to me, because the return should of either of been a number centre, top prospect or series of high draft picks. We got neither of those and gave up a good prospect in the process.

Letting Cammy go was a bad decision also.

Obviously the worst trades were for Staios and Jokinen for Kotalik. Other than that I agree with pretty much all of your assessments of Sutters trades. And I would like to say that Sutter did WAY more good than bad in his time as GM. I just think he was losing his mind his last 2 years and was burnt out and desperate. But overall, with his time with in Calgary should be viewed as positive.

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02-19-2011, 04:11 PM
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what no comparing Aulie to Niklas Lidstrom?
Lets move on already.

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02-19-2011, 04:18 PM
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I was actually of fan of the first Jokinen trade, and I will stand by that now. It didn't work out, hind sight is 20/20 for assessing all trades whether they were good or bad.

The second Jokinen trade was a lose in my mind. The Boyd one was as well because if Sutter didn't make that trade at all, Boyd would of been a RFA at seasons end and if any team would of signed him we would of got a minimum 3rd round pick as compensation, poor assest management. The Phaneuf trade was a lose to me, because the return should of either of been a number centre, top prospect or series of high draft picks. We got neither of those and gave up a good prospect in the process.

Letting Cammy go was a bad decision also.

Obviously the worst trades were for Staios and Jokinen for Kotalik. Other than that I agree with pretty much all of your assessments of Sutters trades. And I would like to say that Sutter did WAY more good than bad in his time as GM. I just think he was losing his mind his last 2 years and was burnt out and desperate. But overall, with his time with in Calgary should be viewed as positive.
You're mistaken on Boyd. in 2010 to get any compansation for an RFA they had to sign for more than $994,433... so it was either keep him, not qualify him, lose him for nothingas an RFA or trade him for a 4th... i think Sutter made the right choice

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02-19-2011, 04:19 PM
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Letting Cammy go was a bad decision also.

Yeah, I'm still not a fan of that move.

But the majority of Darryl Sutter's trade I did like.

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02-19-2011, 04:21 PM
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what no comparing Aulie to Niklas Lidstrom?

Aulie ws irrelvant here, the Leafs wantd a prospect with some potential and so we gave that up... Aulie only looks good because he jumped from #5 on the Flames prospect depth chart to #1 on the Leafs
Toronto's propsects ranked #12, Flames #30; Aulie is ranked now #3 in Toronto, his stock is very much on the rise. Negrin and Pelech are #6 and 7. It's same to asume considering the better depth of Toronto's prospects that Aulie is ahead of those guys now.

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02-19-2011, 04:28 PM
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Yeah, I'm still not a fan of that move.

But the majority of Darryl Sutter's trade I did like.
to me its another hinsight is 20/20 thing... after the Jokinen trade and in the playoffs Jokinen was simply better than Cammalleri... I supported the decision at the time for that reason... the only thing I hate about it is he could have moved Dion in that offseason and had Cammy, Jokinen and Bouw instead of Dion, Jokinen & Bouw

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