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01-25-2011, 10:11 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
No offense, but I stopped reading here. I just can't go through another Carter sucks discussion.
The next sentence I gave him props, but hey denial is not a river in Egypt is it? Seriously, why can people not be critical of the FACT that Carter is going to be needed in the playoffs and that he has not been a playoff performer in the past? I do not get it. We are all fans, but let's call it as it is, if he does not show up it hurts this teams chances of winning.

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01-25-2011, 10:18 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
The next sentence I gave him props, but hey denial is not a river in Egypt is it? Seriously, why can people not be critical of the FACT that Carter is going to be needed in the playoffs and that he has not been a playoff performer in the past? I do not get it. We are all fans, but let's call it as it is, if he does not show up it hurts this teams chances of winning.
WTF does a thread titled "Zherdev" have to do with Carter? Do you have to derail every conversation by turning into a Carter thread?

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01-25-2011, 10:20 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
For all those who are going to claim that we need three scoring lines, blah, blah, blah, blah.....how many times have the Caps made it into the SCF's after leading the league in goals over the last couple years? None. Why? Because they are not a good defensive team. If you can keep Zherdev for emergency purposes or if JvR goes cold, fine, but otherwise he is not a player who should be kept for sentimental purposes or because people are afraid we will lose the scoring punch.

.
Not a good comparison. Difference is Caps have several guys who are all flash and no grinding PO types, whereas Flyers only have one (Zherdev).

Also gotta look at the difference tween Caps defense corps versus Flyers.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I think given all the 'good offense yet defensively responsible PO types' that Philly has, the presence of one flashy talented ZHerdev type will not negatively impact em.

More than one may have made a difference but having one like that is good. If not for any reason other than the opposing team will underestimate him and he'll strike.

I worry that having Richards tween two guys who're not very offenisvely talented will neutralize Richards' own performance and also the line's effectiveness. Right now he is with one guy who is a bit offensively less talented but defensively responsible (Nodl), and one guy who's the opposite (Zherdev). It works, they balance out. Change that chemistry and it might nor work.

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01-25-2011, 10:24 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Woof View Post
WTF does a thread titled "Zherdev" have to do with Carter? Do you have to derail every conversation by turning into a Carter thread?
i wonder if Pat Maroon is available

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01-25-2011, 10:31 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
The next sentence I gave him props, but hey denial is not a river in Egypt is it? Seriously, why can people not be critical of the FACT that Carter is going to be needed in the playoffs and that he has not been a playoff performer in the past? I do not get it. We are all fans, but let's call it as it is, if he does not show up it hurts this teams chances of winning.
I think I speak for many when I say, I know your position on Carter. So, in the discussion about Zherdev, if you start in on Carter, then I just stop reading.

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01-25-2011, 10:36 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Woof View Post
WTF does a thread titled "Zherdev" have to do with Carter? Do you have to derail every conversation by turning into a Carter thread?
Did you read the explanation?

The comments were directly related that you have two guys who are streaky, does it make sense to have two guys on the roster who could be taken out of their games when the ice gets smaller, games get tighter, and the physical game more intense over looking at the idea of bringing in a guy who can play on Richards wing and be a more physical player and fit better with mathcups so JvR can get back on a line with Carter and Giroux.

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01-25-2011, 10:47 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by rban View Post
Not a good comparison. Difference is Caps have several guys who are all flash and no grinding PO types, whereas Flyers only have one (Zherdev).
My point was more directed at guys like Carter, Zherdev, and to a certain extent JvR who is also unproven. It is also about looking to balance out the lines. I think Zherdev will get you points in the regular season but come playoffs he doesn't bring anything except flash if he is not scoring, flash in the playoffs does not help. Carter is a great unknown too, in the past he has dropped off the scoring sheet in the playoffs. And JvR is still unknown at this point, but he has added some physicalness to his game. And Giroux can make both of those guys better, period. I do not want JvR on a line with Richards and Nodl, neither do I want Zherdev on that line either.


Quote:
Also gotta look at the difference tween Caps defense corps versus Flyers.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I think given all the 'good offense yet defensively responsible PO types' that Philly has, the presence of one flashy talented ZHerdev type will not negatively impact em.
Yes, my main point is you cannot rely on the theory of being the highest scoring team to be the best. Teams focus on defense, especially coaches like Laviolette, and create chances off of the defensive game. Look at his five men deep in the first period against the Hawks as an example. And look at his usage of Richards against Toews, that is what I expect from Laviolette, which means he needs players to fit that style which IMO is the type of game which wins Cups and not Presidents Trophies.

Quote:
More than one may have made a difference but having one like that is good. If not for any reason other than the opposing team will underestimate him and he'll strike.

I worry that having Richards tween two guys who're not very offenisvely talented will neutralize Richards' own performance and also the line's effectiveness. Right now he is with one guy who is a bit offensively less talented but defensively responsible (Nodl), and one guy who's the opposite (Zherdev). It works, they balance out. Change that chemistry and it might nor work.

This team needs a line that can be a PIA to play against and at the same time they can convert on their chances, that IS my point. Again, you need 12 guys who can play on the roster, maybe you dish off Carcillo and put Zherdev in a 4th line role and use him if you need some offense? But the top 9 needs to have some cohesiveness to it going down the stretch and a fwd to balance out the lines with Nodl-Richards is a perfect solution IMO. If Richards is matched up against top lines his objective is not to score but to keep the opponent off the score sheet, then anything they contribute is important. Thus why Carter-Zherdev in a tandem with Giroux is dangerous because of their tendency to either score or not contribute much else.

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01-25-2011, 10:54 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Not sure why everyone is so infatuated with Zherdev, nice player but for his career including in the KHL he has 1 career playoff point. Let's just assume that Carter does not show up in the playoffs, now if both Carter and Zherdev are not scoring what else are they bringing?

Carter has done better so my hope is that he will step up in the playoffs this year with Giroux, but playoffs are won with guys who bring more to the table. Nodl in less games has 18pts to Zherdev's 19pts and is more evenly dispersed with 9goals and 9 assists. I by no means am saying that Nodl is a better goal scorer or as talented as Zherdev in his skills, but sometimes we put too much stock in the flash and forget that playoff games are won with guys who will do anything to win and play solid two-way hockey.

This is why a guy like Glencross is such a nice fit or someone who is a similar mold. He is a PK guy who plays a more playoffs style of hockey and is more willing to grind each shift much like Nodl and Richards. He is also a defensively minded forward who if Laviolette is going to start matching up lines is going to be important that each player on that line knows his job.

For all those who are going to claim that we need three scoring lines, blah, blah, blah, blah.....how many times have the Caps made it into the SCF's after leading the league in goals over the last couple years? None. Why? Because they are not a good defensive team. If you can keep Zherdev for emergency purposes or if JvR goes cold, fine, but otherwise he is not a player who should be kept for sentimental purposes or because people are afraid we will lose the scoring punch.


So:
HBL line: proven it can play against anyone and has been successful in the playoffs.

JvR-Carter-Giroux:has shown some real promise. JvR has been really strong on the boards, started scoring, and has amped up his physical game. Carter has improved with Giroux, these guys should be kept on this line to see how it plays out.

Nodl-Richards-Glencross:While people may look at this as a defensive line, it is also a line that can score some goals. The grit that a line like this can provide supercedes the theory of skill with more playoff like hard work which is needed in a long series when skill lines dry up.

Carcillo-Betts-Powe: Obviously a 4th line with two guys who take on some PK minutes and Carcillo to add 4th line energy.
I'm not saying Zhderdev is as good of a player because he isn't, but Malkin did win the Conn Smythe the year the Pens won the cup so it's not like his style of play has no place in the playoffs.

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01-25-2011, 10:59 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by esuhock22 View Post
I'm not saying Zhderdev is as good of a player because he isn't, but Malkin did win the Conn Smythe the year the Pens won the cup so it's not like his style of play has no place in the playoffs.
Malkin can carry a team on his back, he has done it before by winning the Cup with his 14 goals, 22 assists, 36pts. No question that Malkin can get the job done. Malkin while Flyers fans may not like to admit it, is a physical game. He uses his body in traffic and has 10x the overall talent of a Zherdev.

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01-25-2011, 11:25 AM
  #135
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I wouldn't have a problem keeping Zherdev if he continues to play as he is. If he gets a raise it has to be a token one, though. His defence has improved under Lavi and that was the biggest concern I had.

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01-25-2011, 11:28 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Woof View Post
I wouldn't have a problem keeping Zherdev if he continues to play as he is. If he gets a raise it has to be a token one, though. His defence has improved under Lavi and that was the biggest concern I had.
Zherdev is down the list, Leino should be priority number one at this point. If Zherdev wants to resign for the $2mill and play the same role he has, I am good with it if he continues to focus on each piece of his game. If he wants more money or more PP time or ice time, he needs to earn it with the coach or go back to Russia.

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01-25-2011, 12:45 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Zherdev is down the list, Leino should be priority number one at this point. If Zherdev wants to resign for the $2mill and play the same role he has, I am good with it if he continues to focus on each piece of his game. If he wants more money or more PP time or ice time, he needs to earn it with the coach or go back to Russia.
The world is ending. We agree on something!

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01-25-2011, 02:34 PM
  #138
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i wonder if Pat Maroon is available
The more and more you mention Pat Maroon, the funnier it gets.

edit:

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01-25-2011, 02:44 PM
  #139
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Carter is def capable of picking up his game in the playoffs..especially if he plays like he did the last game against Pitt. If you get that kind of game out of him..no worries whatsoever. I think this year he absolutely has to break out in the playoffs otherwise the knock against him as coming up short in the playoffs is valid. Last year he had injuries so he should get a pass...although mentally he was playing pretty boneheaded too. Even Meltzer commented that Carter may have two broken feet but he shouldn't have a broken brain .....

As far as Zherdev..yeah there should be some concern about him come playoff time. That's why they need some more depth come the deadline....

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01-26-2011, 06:01 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Malkin can carry a team on his back, he has done it before by winning the Cup with his 14 goals, 22 assists, 36pts. No question that Malkin can get the job done. Malkin while Flyers fans may not like to admit it, is a physical game. He uses his body in traffic and has 10x the overall talent of a Zherdev.
Malkin is not overly physical compared to Zherdev and I've also heard many complain about Malkin's work ethic at times. Like I said before, I know Malkin is a way better player, I was just saying Zherdev can do some good. It's not like we have a whole team built around players like him or rely on him that much with our depth.

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01-26-2011, 06:11 AM
  #141
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So Cartsie, by my count Zherdev had 3 hits tonight. comments?

I see no point in dealing Zherdev, unless we can get another ~25-30 goal guy back. Who knows how he will perform in the playoffs, but he could do very well. I would still like to nab another forward in place of Carcillo though.

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01-26-2011, 07:48 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by esuhock22 View Post
Malkin is not overly physical compared to Zherdev and I've also heard many complain about Malkin's work ethic at times. Like I said before, I know Malkin is a way better player, I was just saying Zherdev can do some good. It's not like we have a whole team built around players like him or rely on him that much with our depth.
Comparing Malkin to Zherdev is laughable. Malkin is a MUCH better player than Zherdev. They may share a poor work ethic, but in the end, Malkin delivers the goods most nights where Zherdev falls a little short.

I love watching Z play. I was glad we signed him, although I didn't fully understand it. He has improved by leaps and bounds physically and defensively over the course of the season, but Malkin he is not, and he never will be.

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01-26-2011, 08:34 AM
  #143
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zherdev had a pretty awesome game last night. the shift, those 3 nice hits, and nothing on the score sheet. i hope zherdev finishes with 24 goals so we don't have to pay him that bonus and we won't be in cap-hell come june, but by all means buddy, score as many times as you'd like come april

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01-26-2011, 09:49 AM
  #144
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[QUOTE=Cartsiephan;30450397]
Quote:

My point was more directed at guys like Carter, Zherdev, and to a certain extent JvR who is also unproven. It is also about looking to balance out the lines. .
I get your point. You are not so terribly concerned about one guy ZHerdev being a PO dud, but are worried about three of the Top 9 disappearing in the POs at the same time, thus reducing Philly from a three-line scoring team to a two-line.

I think one way to handle the possibility of having three possible non performers in the POs is to take each of em and put em on separate lines with players who will push them.

Might be a bit hard tho cuz Philly will keep HBL line together.

Let's hope all three of those guys don't hit their PO funk at the same time.

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01-26-2011, 10:12 AM
  #145
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Zherdev is getting better with every game. Carter has been an absolute beast lately and is giving the other team nightmares by parking himself in front of the net. Throw Giroux in with his craftiness and it's great to see.

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01-26-2011, 10:13 AM
  #146
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Comparing Malkin to Zherdev is laughable. Malkin is a MUCH better player than Zherdev. They may share a poor work ethic, but in the end, Malkin delivers the goods most nights where Zherdev falls a little short.

I love watching Z play. I was glad we signed him, although I didn't fully understand it. He has improved by leaps and bounds physically and defensively over the course of the season, but Malkin he is not, and he never will be.

ONCE AGAIN I will state that I know Malkin is a world class talent and Zherdev is not, but I was trying to make a point that their style of play can produce come playoffs and while Zherdev's skill isn't close to Malkin's that doesn't mean that Z doesn't have a ton of skill and couldn't get it done come playoff time. We do not need to rely on him that much, but he still puts the puck in the net and if he continues to improve or play like he has then no one should have any complaints.


Last edited by esuhock22: 01-26-2011 at 10:27 AM.
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01-26-2011, 11:06 AM
  #147
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ONCE AGAIN I will state that I know Malkin is a world class talent and Zherdev is not, but I was trying to make a point that their style of play can produce come playoffs and while Zherdev's skill isn't close to Malkin's that doesn't mean that Z doesn't have a ton of skill and couldn't get it done come playoff time. We do not need to rely on him that much, but he still puts the puck in the net and if he continues to improve or play like he has then no one should have any complaints.
Zherdev has an elite skill level. His deficiencies are in other areas.

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01-26-2011, 12:14 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
So Cartsie, by my count Zherdev had 3 hits tonight. comments?

I see no point in dealing Zherdev, unless we can get another ~25-30 goal guy back. Who knows how he will perform in the playoffs, but he could do very well. I would still like to nab another forward in place of Carcillo though.
I think Zherdev has upped his game recently but I still question that this guy can play on a line where he is expected to play at that level throughout the playoffs. I also want to see a winger come back who can be a solid PK minutes player.

I really think it more important in the playoffs to have a line that can matchup well, score some timely goals, and be a PIA to play against. They will not be counted on to score, but more to keep the other teams top line from scoring more than their line. Playoff series are a grind, the Flyers have a lot of talent but do not really grind teams down except for the Hartnell-Briere-Leino line.

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01-26-2011, 12:22 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I think Zherdev has upped his game recently but I still question that this guy can play on a line where he is expected to play at that level throughout the playoffs. I also want to see a winger come back who can be a solid PK minutes player.

I really think it more important in the playoffs to have a line that can matchup well, score some timely goals, and be a PIA to play against. They will not be counted on to score, but more to keep the other teams top line from scoring more than their line. Playoff series are a grind, the Flyers have a lot of talent but do not really grind teams down except for the Hartnell-Briere-Leino line.
How about our 4th line?

And Nodl and Cannon?

Yea, must of forgot about them.

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01-26-2011, 12:29 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I think Zherdev has upped his game recently but I still question that this guy can play on a line where he is expected to play at that level throughout the playoffs. I also want to see a winger come back who can be a solid PK minutes player.

I really think it more important in the playoffs to have a line that can matchup well, score some timely goals, and be a PIA to play against. They will not be counted on to score, but more to keep the other teams top line from scoring more than their line. Playoff series are a grind, the Flyers have a lot of talent but do not really grind teams down except for the Hartnell-Briere-Leino line.
that is not how this team is built nor will it be for the playoffs unless all of a sudden the coach changes gears, which isnt going to happen. Other teams need to worry more about shutting down the flyers than the flyers need to worry about ashutting down other teasm so to speak.

If Carcillo can keep up his play from the last 2 games then stick nodl on the 4th line.

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