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Old
02-07-2011, 01:11 PM
  #326
CapnCornelius
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Here's the irony:

RJ's fans (and look, I love the guy - I didn't go to OSU but he's from my hometown and he plays for the NHL team I support) have him on a pedestal because of his leadership. Then they choose to frame the debate in a Nash vs. Umberger fashion.

Nice board leadership.

Of course, we must frame this debate as an either-or scenario. We can't possibly have need for what both of these players offer. They can't both have value for different reasons.
Talk about framing an issue how you choose.

Let's look at this another way instead of the one you've determined. Rick Nash has only 6 more points than Umberger. Is that worth an extra $3 million plus/year?

Furthermore, between RJ and Nash, which of those players could possibly yield us a #1 center or a #1 defensemen of the franchise variety straight up? Hint: It isn't RJ Umberger.

They are both perfectly fine players at what they each do respectively. But if I had an opportunity to acquire a bona fide #1 center in particular, I'd probably be fine with giving one of them up if that is what it took. The reality is, Nash has more trade value and also would better off-set the salary costs of a franchise center. RJ you are going to have to package with at least one more piece in order for the other team to feel they got equal value and in order for the Jackets to balance out the money. The question then is how much you are giving up in depth to acquire the other piece.

Trading a player isn't about hating them. It's a business transaction. Nothing more, nothing less.

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02-07-2011, 01:16 PM
  #327
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I really doubt you are getting a first line center for Nash of equal value. Players like Nash rarely get traded for fair value, if ever, while guys like R.J. are key pieces that return players of value. Don't get me wrong though, I understand that my bias and dislike for R.J. will easily keep me from having a level head discussion about the guy. Much like some of you dislike OSU football because it is always being shoved into every hole, that's how I feel about R.J. sometimes.

As for R.J. he is a hard guy to get a read on. His personality type could go either way when deciding to resign or move on. I can see him being loyal to Columbus and wanting to be part of the turn around, but I can also seem him as a player that wants to walk because he is ready to win now.

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Old
02-07-2011, 01:19 PM
  #328
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I really doubt you are getting a first line center for Nash of equal value. Players like Nash rarely get traded for fair value, if ever, while guys like R.J. are key pieces that return players of value.
That's why Malkin was discussed. It was a possible match. Really it depends on the situation around the trade. If we're desperate coming up on a UFA period, no. If we're catching someone that has a up and comer wanting to move salary-for-salary while making room then maybe.

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02-07-2011, 01:22 PM
  #329
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That's why Malkin was discussed. It was a possible match. Really it depends on the situation around the trade. If we're desperate coming up on a UFA period, no. If we're catching someone that has a up and comer wanting to move salary-for-salary while making room then maybe.
If I could get Malkin for Nash for sure I'd think that is a no brain transaction, but I don't know how willing a GM would be to move a star center for a star winger with off-setting salaries, which is why I really believe that R.J. can get us the center we need but I'm not sure if Nash could.

I mean look at it from a Pittsburgh point of view, would you want Nash for Malkin or Umberger + Voracek + something else for Malkin.

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02-07-2011, 01:26 PM
  #330
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I mean look at it from a Pittsburgh point of view, would you want Nash for Malkin or Umberger + Voracek + something else for Malkin.
That's a loaded question. Your assuming that the CBJ would be willing to move multiple assets for Malkin. Your also assuming that Pittsburgh values all the assets in the same way we do.

All these deals are long shots and require the right situation.

The best I can hope for is telling you what I think Howson won't do, not so much what he will do. Mainly because he does little on the trade front.

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02-07-2011, 01:45 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Talk about framing an issue how you choose.

Let's look at this another way instead of the one you've determined. Rick Nash has only 6 more points than Umberger. Is that worth an extra $3 million plus/year?

Furthermore, between RJ and Nash, which of those players could possibly yield us a #1 center or a #1 defensemen of the franchise variety straight up? Hint: It isn't RJ Umberger.

They are both perfectly fine players at what they each do respectively. But if I had an opportunity to acquire a bona fide #1 center in particular, I'd probably be fine with giving one of them up if that is what it took. The reality is, Nash has more trade value and also would better off-set the salary costs of a franchise center. RJ you are going to have to package with at least one more piece in order for the other team to feel they got equal value and in order for the Jackets to balance out the money. The question then is how much you are giving up in depth to acquire the other piece.

Trading a player isn't about hating them. It's a business transaction. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm not framing the issue at all. I'm merely commenting on how the issue had been framed. Damn I swear some people are just looking for posts to debate.

I found it funny that anyone who so values RJs leadership would so blithely pit poster against poster. I thought it was all about the team, man.

I honestly don't care about the debate itself. Enjoy.

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02-07-2011, 01:51 PM
  #332
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Sorry DSL. Yours kind of stuck out of the crowd for me.

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02-07-2011, 02:04 PM
  #333
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Sorry DSL. Yours kind of stuck out of the crowd for me.
No sweat. I obviously didn't do a good enough job explaining.

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02-07-2011, 02:58 PM
  #334
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Ok, the real debate. Buyers or sellers?

The 12 game stretch of death starts tomorrow, ending with a Canadian road trip. Any poor performance in any of the 4 game blocks, which are very possible, pretty much knock us out of contention. There are only two blocks of four games until the trade deadline. Howson will be active when we are in Nashville on the 27th, so that game probably won't matter much in his decision making.

Block 1.
@Pens/SJ/Avs/@Dallas

Block 2
LA/@Chi/Nashville/Phx

We need to figure out how to go something like 4-2-2 to stay in it. We can only lose around 20 points (all the points remaining would get us to 115 points, 115-20=95) the rest of the season to have a good chance. A 4-2-2 stretch would knock that down to 14 points with 22 games left coming into a 5 game road trip.

Block 3
@Nash/@Van/@Edm/@Calgary

So with Block 1 being brutal, are we still going to be in it come Valentine's day? Can we get enough points in the next eight games to encourage Howson to be a buyer?

Frankly, unless we just tear up the next eight games, like 7-0-1, I don't expect Howson to be buying for this year.

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02-07-2011, 03:16 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
I really doubt you are getting a first line center for Nash of equal value. Players like Nash rarely get traded for fair value, if ever, while guys like R.J. are key pieces that return players of value. Don't get me wrong though, I understand that my bias and dislike for R.J. will easily keep me from having a level head discussion about the guy. Much like some of you dislike OSU football because it is always being shoved into every hole, that's how I feel about R.J. sometimes.

As for R.J. he is a hard guy to get a read on. His personality type could go either way when deciding to resign or move on. I can see him being loyal to Columbus and wanting to be part of the turn around, but I can also seem him as a player that wants to walk because he is ready to win now.
So, Nash won't get us a #1 center but R.J. Umberger will? Given this team's lack of offensive depth do you really think they can afford to send Pittsburgh not one but 3 such players as you seem to be suggesting?

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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Ok, the real debate. Buyers or sellers?

Block 1.
@Pens/SJ/Avs/@Dallas

Block 2
LA/@Chi/Nashville/Phx

***
Frankly, unless we just tear up the next eight games, like 7-0-1, I don't expect Howson to be buying for this year.
I'd say 6-2 might be enough. With that said, I do not see us getting through that stretch with just 2 losses. Several of those teams are also fighting desperately for their own playoff lives. It's going to come down to who wants it more.

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02-07-2011, 03:18 PM
  #336
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Well, I don't think we should give up any promising prospects or any good picks for a player that will be a rental. If it's a long-term (more than one year) investment a trade should be made, but if it is not, I say stick with what we have. If we are 5 points or more away from the 8th spot at the deadline I say sell Pahlsson, Clark, Hejda, Stralman (if possible), Moreau, and Huselius (if possible) and get useful assets for the future.

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02-07-2011, 03:22 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
So, Nash won't get us a #1 center but R.J. Umberger will? Given this team's lack of offensive depth do you really think they can afford to send Pittsburgh not one but 3 such players as you seem to be suggesting?



I'd say 6-2 might be enough. With that said, I do not see us getting through that stretch with just 2 losses. Several of those teams are also fighting desperately for their own playoff lives. It's going to come down to who wants it more.
I'm not suggesting anything we send anything, you need to learn to read. I said R.J. + is more likely to get you Malkin than Nash straight up, plain and simple. I didn't say go do it or anything of that nature. Please, since you are the only one on this site that knows anything, tell me why Pitt would trade an elite, 100 point center for a franchise, 80 point left-winger with roughly the same salaries? Thanks for addressing this issue I'm sure you have something very insightful to add.

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02-07-2011, 03:22 PM
  #338
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Other then the 1st round pick, the other picks are far less meaningful to me. But agreed, you want to control what prospects you give up for a rental. But if you can get a pretty good defensemen for a second round pick, go for it unless you want to use it for trade bait in the draft.

I don't expect Howson to do either, but we'll see.

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02-07-2011, 03:24 PM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
I'm not framing the issue at all. I'm merely commenting on how the issue had been framed. Damn I swear some people are just looking for posts to debate.

I found it funny that anyone who so values RJs leadership would so blithely pit poster against poster. I thought it was all about the team, man.

I honestly don't care about the debate itself. Enjoy.
It might be all about the team on the ice, but here it's every man, woman, and child for him/herself, and the devil take the hindmost.

I would have thought you'd know that by now.

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02-07-2011, 03:25 PM
  #340
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Please, since you are the only one on this site that knows anything, tell me why Pitt would trade an elite center for a franchise left-winger with roughly the same salaries? Thanks for addressing this issue I'm sure you have something very insightful to add.
They are deeper at center and they've been looking for a forward to play with Crosby for a while. Nash has seemed like a natural fit there for quite a while. It's been talked about for 2 or 3 years.

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02-07-2011, 03:25 PM
  #341
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I'd say the 1st pick you have to be careful with who you grab, but 2nd round and beyond I think you can more freely just trade for an upgrade that is a rental. The first rounder needs to be for a guy of the Pitkanen mold, but as far as trading prospects, I don't think I'd trade Johansen, Moore, Savard, or Calvert for anything other than a long term investment that is a significant upgrade over what we already have.

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02-07-2011, 03:27 PM
  #342
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They are deeper at center and they've been looking for a forward to play with Crosby for a while. Nash has seemed like a natural fit there for quite a while.
Yeah I get, but Malkin can play with Crosby and he can also pivot his own line with less than average scorers and still put up 100 points. I would think that if they are going to trade Malkin it would be to pick up a top defender or grab some lesser salary players that can add great depth to the team such as an Umberger and a Voracek type of player. If you are trading Malkin you need to get players that can help elevate the game of Staal on the second line, and I don't think he can do what Malkin can do with the those wingers.

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02-07-2011, 03:27 PM
  #343
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I'm sure Howson is on board with that line of thinking.

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02-07-2011, 03:29 PM
  #344
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I just hope the team puts the GM in that position.

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02-07-2011, 03:31 PM
  #345
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Yeah I get, but Malkin can play with Crosby and he can also pivot his own line with less than average scorers and still put up 100 points.
Maybe you should tell the Pens and their fans to think of Malkin playing Crosby's wing. I'm sure they've never thought of that.

I can't think of any reason that the Pens would like a 40G power forward with strong two ways skills, who happens to be a very good penalty killer. No value at all to that, especially in the playoffs.

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02-07-2011, 03:38 PM
  #346
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I definitely understand the line of thinking that maybe Pittsburgh would rather have Nash than Umberger +. That's why I asked for opinions because I'm not sure what Pitt would rather acquire. I personally think that Pitt trading Malkin for Nash straight up is a downgrade for Pittsburgh. Not only are you losing a top player, but now you are filling out your top line, but you are creating a big whole on the other lines. Now you are expecting Staal to be able to play near Malkin's level with below average scoring wingers while also creating a hole in your checking line as one of the best checking centers is now expected to think offense first without the proper line-mates. If you get say Umberger and Voracek and something else I won't even enter the something else in the line-up, you are not only adding a very capable winger to play with Crosby who could probably easily be a ppg player with crosby, but you are also giving your 2nd line center a player to succeed with rather than making him play with scraps on the wings. I really don't know which way I'd rather go if I were the Pitt gm and I had to trade Malkin to the Jackets in the off-season.



Off course there are problems with my thinking. I mean with Nash playing with Crosby do you need Staal to play at a point per game pace? Probably not, which is why I can see it the other way around in that Nash would be the better player to acquire, but at that point I'd rather just keep Malkin and continue making it to the Stanley Cup finals with elite centers.

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02-07-2011, 03:48 PM
  #347
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Maybe you should tell the Pens and their fans to think of Malkin playing Crosby's wing. I'm sure they've never thought of that.

I can't think of any reason that the Pens would like a 40G power forward with strong two ways skills, who happens to be a very good penalty killer. No value at all to that, especially in the playoffs.
You just described Malkin except it's "elite play-maker" instead of "power forward." He doesn't kill penalties now because the Penguins don't need him to; they're already 88 or 89% using Staal and a bunch of grinders.

As a Pens fan I'd be shocked if Malkin ever got traded straight up, or near straight up, for just one winger. Frankly he can do more than any other player in the world, except perhaps Ovechkin, as a winger. I think the Umberger+Voracek+Elite Prospect deal makes more sense.

All that said when asked about Malkin being criticized prior to his latest injury Ray Shero actually pointed to the rafters of the CEC and said "There's the Stanley Cup banner." Malkin is not going anywhere.

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02-07-2011, 03:59 PM
  #348
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You just described Malkin except it's "elite play-maker" instead of "power forward." He doesn't kill penalties now because the Penguins don't need him to; they're already 88 or 89% using Staal and a bunch of grinders.
You are 100% correct, Nash has nothing to offer the Pens.

Quote:
All that said when asked about Malkin being criticized prior to his latest injury Ray Shero actually pointed to the rafters of the CEC and said "There's the Stanley Cup banner." Malkin is not going anywhere.
That's awesome, good for him. It's settled then, no need to talk about Malkin ever again.

I know that Hitch hockey is Blue Jackets hockey. It will be forever.

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02-07-2011, 04:16 PM
  #349
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You take that back!

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02-07-2011, 04:25 PM
  #350
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You are 100% correct, Nash has nothing to offer the Pens.
Don't get me wrong if the Pens didn't have Malkin I would trade just about anything other than Crosby for Nash. It's just that a one for one deal for Malkin could never be better than a lateral move no matter who is coming back. With the cap constraints the Penguins operate under the only way to add Nash is subtract Malkin or run a team of Crosby Malkin Nash and 9 fourth liners.

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