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Old
01-24-2011, 01:58 AM
  #26
Calculon
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I'd rather the Flames win a Stanley Cup than squeak into the playoffs and bow out in the 1st round again. I'd have thought more Flames fans would have wanted that too, but I guess not. I mean it's a little sad if the best you can possibly hope for is another fluke run. I really would rather enter the playoffs as favourites, expecting to win it all instead of just hoping for a miracle. Our expectations as fans shouldn't die with a playoff birth, but rather begin with it.

At some point in time people are going to have to accept that this team, as currently constructed, is simply not talented enough to beat teams like the Canucks or Wings in a best of seven series let alone win the cup. Outside of Tanguay, Iginla and [insert below average center here], the Flames best line has been Jackman, Kostopoulos and Moss/Backlund. The 2nd and 3rd lines have basically been no shows for the last month or so. The defense has been average and the goaltending inconsistent. Yes, there's a chance this team could sneak into the playoffs, but I really don't see the point other than a little bit of instant gratification/saving face. Nor do I see how it would help us in the future. The drafting would still be terrible, player development just as bad as it has been for the last decade or so. The roster would still be centered around players who are of a certain age and possess the necessary experience based on the foolish idea that one needs a veteran roster to win it all and not simply a 'winning' roster. Feaster, like Sutter, would then be forced to build the team around trades for established players (which guts the system of its prospects and picks) and FA signings. It's a model destined for failure. The impetus for change won't come from another playoff run.

With regards to getting a high draft pick, no one's expecting it to save the franchise or for it to instantly make us a contender. It would simply be a start. A way for this franchise to actually take the time to think about what exactly it needs to do to win a Stanley Cup and the best way to go about achieving that. High draft picks alone won't save this franchise; the organization needs to learn how to develop it's players, scout wisely and build a team that can achieve sustained success. Doing poorly in the standings might be the only way for the management to actually understand that.

Whatever the owners and Feaster decide to do in the end, I'm simply thankful Darryl isn't around any longer. Knowing him, he'd focus on the 'only 5 points out line' and likely trade our 2012 2nd round pick plus a few prospects like Wahl for a savvy veteran defender/gritty 4th liner with 3rd line upside. So long as they don't do anything like that, I can't complain.

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01-24-2011, 02:38 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyirish83 View Post
Agreed 100%
Good on ya mate! It's team spirit we all need and not crap attitude! We need the fan base to come forward and not analyze every little thing right or wrong with these players from the GM down to our prospects and draft picks. This is now and you are right about needing one good streak to give us that push over the edge. We need to ALL come together and realize we do have a shot of making the playoffs and who knows? Make some noise while we are there! We are Flames fans and those are our Calgary Flames playing for us! Give them a chance and lets see what they can do..there is still 3 months left of hockey and only 5 points out.
GO FLAMES GO!
There are several things that make me want the Flames to lose and not squeak into the playoffs.

1. Flames hockey was boring to watch. Actually it was boring back in 03/04 already but at least we had the Red Mile and PO run to make everything crazy. Maybe its just me but I don't really like watching slow defensive teams very much.

2. I really enjoyed when we had Huselius and Tanguay the first time around as well as their skill based hockey was something that didn't put me to sleep. Tangs can still do it now and I think he is still a PPG player.

3. The whole squeaking into playoffs means our gm (or intern gm now) might make some crazy trade to get us more "veterans" so not only does that usually not work, but we also shoot ourselves in the foot (again) for the future years.

My belief is that if we kind of "restart" the franchise, then we have the opportunity to watch a new type of team, one that is more in line with new NHL of speed and skill. Babock made a statement before that winning isn't just everything, its very important that fans are entertained.

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01-24-2011, 05:07 AM
  #28
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We're not only gonna get in. We're gonna dominate the league until playoffs, get in, Kick the balls off of Vandiver, destroy all other western teams, go on to the cup final, and hoist Lord Stanley's cup! Anything less is unacceptable. Go Flames! Screw picks!

I will keep dreaming thank you very much lol!

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01-24-2011, 06:31 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustange70 View Post
The hockey we've played the last month can squeak us into the playoffs.....
If you go back far enough to have Calgary's best streak, since Dec 27 the Flames are 7-3-3, which at is a 65% pace which could squeek them into the playoffs. They lost the 3 games before that, so that's as far as you can go back.

During those games their goal differential is -3, so that kind of pace is going to result in many 65% hockey going forward.

To play 65% hockey consistently, they will need to start scoring more goals than they give up. Sometihng they haven't been doing even during their recent hot streak.

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01-24-2011, 09:28 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
I'd rather the Flames win a Stanley Cup than squeak into the playoffs and bow out in the 1st round again. I'd have thought more Flames fans would have wanted that too, but I guess not. I mean it's a little sad if the best you can possibly hope for is another fluke run. I really would rather enter the playoffs as favourites, expecting to win it all instead of just hoping for a miracle. Our expectations as fans shouldn't die with a playoff birth, but rather begin with it.

At some point in time people are going to have to accept that this team, as currently constructed, is simply not talented enough to beat teams like the Canucks or Wings in a best of seven series let alone win the cup. Outside of Tanguay, Iginla and [insert below average center here], the Flames best line has been Jackman, Kostopoulos and Moss/Backlund. The 2nd and 3rd lines have basically been no shows for the last month or so. The defense has been average and the goaltending inconsistent. Yes, there's a chance this team could sneak into the playoffs, but I really don't see the point other than a little bit of instant gratification/saving face. Nor do I see how it would help us in the future. The drafting would still be terrible, player development just as bad as it has been for the last decade or so. The roster would still be centered around players who are of a certain age and possess the necessary experience based on the foolish idea that one needs a veteran roster to win it all and not simply a 'winning' roster. Feaster, like Sutter, would then be forced to build the team around trades for established players (which guts the system of its prospects and picks) and FA signings. It's a model destined for failure. The impetus for change won't come from another playoff run.

With regards to getting a high draft pick, no one's expecting it to save the franchise or for it to instantly make us a contender. It would simply be a start. A way for this franchise to actually take the time to think about what exactly it needs to do to win a Stanley Cup and the best way to go about achieving that. High draft picks alone won't save this franchise; the organization needs to learn how to develop it's players, scout wisely and build a team that can achieve sustained success. Doing poorly in the standings might be the only way for the management to actually understand that.

Very well said. I couldn't agree more.

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01-24-2011, 09:51 AM
  #31
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Anyone hoping for a high draft pick and no playoffs.

I'll never hope for this team to stink it up in the cellar in hopes that a top 5 turns this franchise around. I want a team who wears their hearts on their sleeves, every shift, every game. I want the sea of red, the red mile, and a playoff run. These days, just getting into the playoffs means everything, you never know what can happen.

I do agree with SR that this team will go no where without consistency, but lately we've been a consistent club. Kipper just needs to come back to form, which he will and has already started to do. I'd love nothing more then a 5 game winning streak and a legit shot to make a run.

This team will make the playoffs if they keep their game up to the level since the start of the last road trip (execuse the MIN home game). Otherwise, not a chance. With the talent level of this group it all comes down to heart and work ethic.

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01-24-2011, 10:10 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPRSRPUNKS View Post
We're not only gonna get in. We're gonna dominate the league until playoffs, get in, Kick the balls off of Vandiver, destroy all other western teams, go on to the cup final, and hoist Lord Stanley's cup! Anything less is unacceptable. Go Flames! Screw picks!

I will keep dreaming thank you very much lol!
If your post had a "Like" button, I would of clicked it.

I call your thinking "Kamikaze optimism" and I love it!!

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01-24-2011, 10:28 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyirish83 View Post
Agreed 100%
Good on ya mate! It's team spirit we all need and not crap attitude! We need the fan base to come forward and not analyze every little thing right or wrong with these players from the GM down to our prospects and draft picks. This is now and you are right about needing one good streak to give us that push over the edge. We need to ALL come together and realize we do have a shot of making the playoffs and who knows? Make some noise while we are there! We are Flames fans and those are our Calgary Flames playing for us! Give them a chance and lets see what they can do..there is still 3 months left of hockey and only 5 points out.
GO FLAMES GO!
You are no bigger fan than I am, trust me. I still cheer and hope for the team to win every game I watch, I still jump up when they score a goal and use all kind profanity when they get scored on or take a bonehead penality. With that said, I am realistic about the situation the Flames are in. And to fix it, change is needed. The longer that change takes, the worse state this team is going to be in. But don't tell me I have a bad attitude because I think a certain direction is needed for this team to take. I want the Flames to be a top team in the NHL long term, not just a mediocre one for 2 more seasons.

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01-24-2011, 01:15 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
With regards to getting a high draft pick, no one's expecting it to save the franchise or for it to instantly make us a contender. It would simply be a start.
Like Tkaczuk and Fata were?

Quote:
A way for this franchise to actually take the time to think about what exactly it needs to do to win a Stanley Cup and the best way to go about achieving that.
The plan the fan base desires seems to be:
1)Tank
2)High Draft Pick
3) ???
4) STANLEY CUP!

Quote:
High draft picks alone won't save this franchise; the organization needs to learn how to develop it's players, scout wisely and build a team that can achieve sustained success. Doing poorly in the standings might be the only way for the management to actually understand that.
If finishing low is the only way for management to understand that those things are vital to win a Stanley Cup, then that management isn't going to win anything with or without high draft picks.

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01-24-2011, 01:22 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
The plan the fan base desires seems to be:
1)Tank
2)High Draft Pick
3) ???
4) STANLEY CUP!


Yeah because the plan the last few seasons has been so much better, huh?

1. Out in round 1
2. Out in round 1
3. No playoffs
4. Playoffs? Maybe.


I realize drafting high doesn't always result in success, but neither is what the Flames have done in the last few seasons. We've gone from being steadily bounced in the 1st round to now wondering if we'll even make the playoffs. It's BS. The organization needs to go with youth, skill and speed to compete with the top teams in the future. A high draft pick would be a good start. At least a lot better of a start than getting bounced in the 1st round again or not even making the playoffs. I'm not suggesting we finish low to draft high for years to come, I'm talking this year.

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01-24-2011, 01:38 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StreakingRed View Post
I'm not suggesting we finish low to draft high for years to come, I'm more focused on this year more than any other in the future.
The year where we have one pick in the first three rounds and are currently sitting 8th with at least six teams who aren't in much of a position to overtake?

Tanking will sure be a great springboard for the future. Especially when we combine the drafting prowess of Jay Feaster and Darryl Sutter's scouting staff.

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01-24-2011, 01:49 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
Like Tkaczuk and Fata were?



The plan the fan base desires seems to be:
1)Tank
2)High Draft Pick
3) ???
4) STANLEY CUP!




If finishing low is the only way for management to understand that those things are vital to win a Stanley Cup, then that management isn't going to win anything with or without high draft picks.
This really bothers me, this "model" for success is very overrated. Look at the Cup winners since the lookout:

Canes in 2006: Staal was the only young lottery pick player on that team, the rest of the pieces were already there or were acquired in free agency.

Ducks in 2007: No lottery players, scoring led by five mid-aged players, helpful contributions from young players like Getzlaf and Perry who were mid-late 1st round picks.

Wings in 2008: Not a young lottery player in sight.

Pens in 2009: Led by three young lottery picks. Landed Crosby by luck. Finished last in the division for the 5 years before that, what fun!

Hawks in 2010: Led by lottery picks Kane and Toews. Now are a middle of the pack team due to mass exodus of players so that they can keep Kane and Toews. Made the playoffs once in 11 years before the tanking thing worked.

So this has worked the last two years, but not without some serious luck involved for the Pens and some consequences this year for the Hawks.

Also, top two teams in each conference right now are Nucks and Flyers. Where are their lottery pick players? Nucks tanked for 4 years to draft the Sedins 10 years ago, haven't made it past the second round yet. In fact they missed the playoffs entirely in 06 and 08.

Flames problems lie with how the team has been assembled in the last two years and poor drafting (due to either bad decision making or bad luck, not because they didn't have a top pick).

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01-24-2011, 01:52 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
The year where we have one pick in the first three rounds and are currently sitting 8th with at least six teams who aren't in much of a position to overtake?

Tanking will sure be a great springboard for the future. Especially when we combine the drafting prowess of Jay Feaster and Darryl Sutter's scouting staff.
This is the #1 reason not to try and tank this year. Can't take advantage of those nice 2nd and 3rd round picks.

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01-24-2011, 02:03 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
The year where we have one pick in the first three rounds and are currently sitting 8th with at least six teams who aren't in much of a position to overtake?

Shouldn't that provide more motivation to make that 1st round pick count, being how it's our only pick in the first three rounds?

Besides, Feaster has already said he plans to acquire more picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds before the draft.

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01-24-2011, 02:09 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by StreakingRed View Post
Shouldn't that provide more motivation to make that 1st round pick count, being how it's our only pick in the first three rounds?

Besides, Feaster has already said he plans to acquire more picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds before the draft.
You don't need motivation to make a good draft choice, you need good scouting.

First rounders count just as much next year, when we have a 2nd and 3rd. If we absolutely have to tank, next year would be the time, imo. It's two late to get into top 5 this season anyways, there's so many awful teams in the east.

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01-24-2011, 02:14 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Duck91 View Post
You don't need motivation to make a good draft choice, you need good scouting.

This is true.

So like I was sayin'... shouldn't that provide more motivation to make that 1st round pick count, being how it's our only pick in the first three rounds?

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01-24-2011, 02:18 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duck91 View Post
Hawks in 2010: Led by lottery picks Kane and Toews. Now are a middle of the pack team due to mass exodus of players so that they can keep Kane and Toews. Made the playoffs once in 11 years before the tanking thing worked.
And the Hawks needed eight years of successful drafts to build up a base: Keith and Burish (02), Seabrook and Byfuglien (03), Bolland and Brouwer (04), Hjalmarsson (05) in addition to successful trades and key free agent signings (Hossa, Ellison for Sharp, Bochenski for Versteeg, Ruutu for Ladd etc.)

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01-24-2011, 02:23 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StreakingRed View Post
Shouldn't that provide more motivation to make that 1st round pick count, being how it's our only pick in the first three rounds?
So the motivation to have your top pick be a good one diminishes with each pick you have in a subsequent round? Whether you have one pick in the draft or five in the first round the motivation should be the same.

Quote:
Besides, Feaster has already said he plans to acquire more picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds before the draft.
Which requires assets, of which we have few that are expendable and tradeable.

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01-24-2011, 02:30 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
So the motivation to have your top pick be a good one diminishes with each pick you have in a subsequent round?

No, it doesn't. Perhaps motivation was the wrong word to use. What I meant is that because we only have one pick in the first three rounds (as it currently stands), it would be nice to make it count by picking in the top 5. It's where we pick that I was talking about, not how good the pick should be.

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01-24-2011, 02:46 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StreakingRed View Post
No, it doesn't. Perhaps motivation was the wrong word to use. What I meant is that because we only have one pick in the first three rounds (as it currently stands), it would be nice to make it count by picking in the top 5. It's where we pick that I was talking about, not how good the pick should be.
What's with this top 5 talk? We are as close to being top 5 in the West as we are from being Top 5 in the draft so perhaps people should give up on the thought, no? The difference between picking 7th (realistically the lowest we'll go) and 14th (the highest without making the playoffs) isn't all that much in this draft. I'd take the risk.

Why would I care about making the playoffs at all if they're this bad? Because anything can happen in the playoffs, especially with a team that clawed its way from 14th in the conference into the top 8. Give me a shot at seeing something special happen this year over a shot that something special might happen 5 years from now every time.

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01-24-2011, 03:10 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
What's with this top 5 talk? We are as close to being top 5 in the West as we are from being Top 5 in the draft so perhaps people should give up on the thought, no? The difference between picking 7th (realistically the lowest we'll go) and 14th (the highest without making the playoffs) isn't all that much in this draft. I'd take the risk.

Why would I care about making the playoffs at all if they're this bad? Because anything can happen in the playoffs, especially with a team that clawed its way from 14th in the conference into the top 8. Give me a shot at seeing something special happen this year over a shot that something special might happen 5 years from now every time.
Great Post. I'm still more interested in seeing what this team is capable of as we approach the deadline. Tanking and grabing the best picks only gets you potential, and there are plenty of examples where these types of teams fail.

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01-24-2011, 03:11 PM
  #47
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What's with this top 5 talk? We are as close to being top 5 in the West as we are from being Top 5 in the draft so perhaps people should give up on the thought, no?

Still lots of games to be played, and given this team's inconsistancy, you never know. I would love a top 5 pick this year, but realistically I'd expect us to draft anywhere between 5 and 10th if this team keeps up its Jekyll and Hyde act.

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01-24-2011, 03:59 PM
  #48
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the Flames can potentially move to 11th tonight with a win... if the Avs and Bruins also win (one plays LA the other STL) we will leapfrog Columbus, Los Angeles and St. Louis... plus beating the Preds puts us 8 points out of home ice advantage in the playoffs (and 4 out of playoff spot)... I'm not saying I think that is realistic but I'm pointing that out because just last week or the week before we were 8 points out of a playoff spot and now we are 8 out of home ice... that is improvement whether its really knowing in the standings or not...

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01-24-2011, 04:01 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
What's with this top 5 talk? We are as close to being top 5 in the West as we are from being Top 5 in the draft so perhaps people should give up on the thought, no? The difference between picking 7th (realistically the lowest we'll go) and 14th (the highest without making the playoffs) isn't all that much in this draft. I'd take the risk.

Why would I care about making the playoffs at all if they're this bad? Because anything can happen in the playoffs, especially with a team that clawed its way from 14th in the conference into the top 8. Give me a shot at seeing something special happen this year over a shot that something special might happen 5 years from now every time.
great post... and somem food for thought about those wanting a ticket in the draft lottery...

Points seperating us from home ice in round 1... 8 points
Points seperating us from a lottery pick in the draft... 7 points

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01-24-2011, 04:16 PM
  #50
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Just because we were in draft lottery range in the first 30 games does not mean we will finish there.

Why does nobody seem to want to make the playoffs, and watch our team play its best hockey. With a team like Calgary the playoffs are what they should be playing for not a prospect who will have an impact in 2-3 years.

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