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01-26-2011, 03:13 AM
  #126
dabeechman
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Originally Posted by adevandry View Post
Elite means the top tier. (Crosby, Stamkos, Ovy)

Anything below that is not elite.
I would consider those guys borderline generational. I am not sold on Stamkos. All his goals come from the same damn place on the powerplay. When/if teams ever decide to do something about it...I see his production going down

Kopitar is very much elite. Great 2-way player who is responsible, a leader, top 5 in scoring for his position, and an ambassador to the game. There isn't much more that you could ask of him to be honest.

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01-26-2011, 04:08 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by dabeechman View Post
I would consider those guys borderline generational. I am not sold on Stamkos. All his goals come from the same damn place on the powerplay. When/if teams ever decide to do something about it...I see his production going down

Kopitar is very much elite. Great 2-way player who is responsible, a leader, top 5 in scoring for his position, and an ambassador to the game. There isn't much more that you could ask of him to be honest.
I just think people use the term elite too carelessly. If everyone is elite, then no one is elite.

Agree to disagree.

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01-26-2011, 11:52 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by dabeechman View Post
I would consider those guys borderline generational. I am not sold on Stamkos. All his goals come from the same damn place on the powerplay. When/if teams ever decide to do something about it...I see his production going down
Brett Hull scored about 600 of his goals from the same damn place... on the corner of St. Louis and the Hall of Fame.

and everyone KNEW where he was going to be, even on the powerplay, and they still couldn't stop him. players like that, with that kind of nose, will find ways... will find those soft spots.

Kopitar is 23-years old and Stamkos will be turning 21 in a couple of weeks... goose and gander - maturity, development, growth, etal and experience doesn't occur in a vacuum, and Anze isn't a unique case - as he gets better (or at least we anticipate he will), so too should that notion extend towards a younger pivot like Stamkos or Tavares... or even Jonathan Toews... Sidney Crosby is going to get better as well, for that matter.

Stamkos' biggest benefit has been the opportunity to play in and around another high-end (and cup winning) center like Lecavalier... not to mention the fact that one of the best centers in history is his General Manager.

Quote:
Kopitar is very much elite. Great 2-way player who is responsible, a leader, top 5 in scoring for his position, and an ambassador to the game. There isn't much more that you could ask of him to be honest.
he is a decent two-way center, whose insofar proven himself a streaky goal scorer with measurable ups and downs in the faceoff circle. his approach on attack is wholly inconsistent and very much contingent upon the limits the defending team has placed. it used to be said that Alex Frolov can flat out dominate games when he wanted to, and i think that turn better applies to Kopitar... and frankly, one would expect to see a winger 'dominate' a game far less often than a center ice man.

the pivot position not only sets the tone of attack, it dictates what happens on the following shift. Anze Kopitar has yet to consistently put that part of his game together, and that is why he isn't an elite center.

we have to concede the idea that there ARE centers in the NHL who won't put up his numbers by virtue of the fact they aren't as skilled, though may still be better up the middle altogether... i mean, really watch Jonathan Toews play.


Quote:
Originally Posted by adevandry View Post
I just think people use the term elite too carelessly. If everyone is elite, then no one is elite.

Agree to disagree.

i agree... it's a far too casual term.

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01-26-2011, 02:49 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by wabwat View Post
Brett Hull scored about 600 of his goals from the same damn place... on the corner of St. Louis and the Hall of Fame.

and everyone KNEW where he was going to be, even on the powerplay, and they still couldn't stop him. players like that, with that kind of nose, will find ways... will find those soft spots.

Kopitar is 23-years old and Stamkos will be turning 21 in a couple of weeks... goose and gander - maturity, development, growth, etal and experience doesn't occur in a vacuum, and Anze isn't a unique case - as he gets better (or at least we anticipate he will), so too should that notion extend towards a younger pivot like Stamkos or Tavares... or even Jonathan Toews... Sidney Crosby is going to get better as well, for that matter.

Stamkos' biggest benefit has been the opportunity to play in and around another high-end (and cup winning) center like Lecavalier... not to mention the fact that one of the best centers in history is his General Manager.



he is a decent two-way center, whose insofar proven himself a streaky goal scorer with measurable ups and downs in the faceoff circle. his approach on attack is wholly inconsistent and very much contingent upon the limits the defending team has placed. it used to be said that Alex Frolov can flat out dominate games when he wanted to, and i think that turn better applies to Kopitar... and frankly, one would expect to see a winger 'dominate' a game far less often than a center ice man.

the pivot position not only sets the tone of attack, it dictates what happens on the following shift. Anze Kopitar has yet to consistently put that part of his game together, and that is why he isn't an elite center.

we have to concede the idea that there ARE centers in the NHL who won't put up his numbers by virtue of the fact they aren't as skilled, though may still be better up the middle altogether... i mean, really watch Jonathan Toews play.


i agree... it's a far too casual term.
x 10

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01-26-2011, 03:51 PM
  #130
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Alright.

Yet.

He is an elite scoring center but his overall game has yet to come together in every aspect so I agree that he isn't elite. The term is sort of remarkable to me in a way. Doughty is an elite Dman and also considered to be a *generational* talent as well. I agree with this.

So I have always considered Kopi to be an elite level NHL center who has yet to be given the same opportunities that his peers have in the way of at least one legitimate elite caliber wing to play with on his line. However, I also believe that he (AK) isn't a generational talent regardless of who he plays with so reading these observations has made me redefine my own terms.

Sydney Crosby is an elite generational talent.

Malkin is an elite caliber center.

Backstrom is an exceptionally talented center.

Jordan Stall is a talented center.

Jared Stoll is a good center.

Trevor Lewis is an NHL caliber center.

I would say that Kopi is a level above Backstrom but not on par with Malkin.

So in my opinion Anze Kopitar is an NHL caliber center who is talented enough to be considered an exceptionally talented player who might even be considered elite in some circles but definitely isn't a generational talent.

My brient is broken.

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01-26-2011, 04:44 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by adevandry View Post
I just think people use the term elite too carelessly. If everyone is elite, then no one is elite.

Agree to disagree.
... I wouldn't term Kopitar and those at a tier just below Crosby and Ovechkin as "everyone", but whatever.

Kopitar is on a line with a right wing who's just short of the top 50 scorers in the league and a left wing who's yet to put up five career points in the NHL. Considering that, I'd say it's damn near miraculous that he's put up the points he has.

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01-26-2011, 05:05 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by wabwat View Post
Brett Hull scored about 600 of his goals from the same damn place... on the corner of St. Louis and the Hall of Fame.

and everyone KNEW where he was going to be, even on the powerplay, and they still couldn't stop him. players like that, with that kind of nose, will find ways... will find those soft spots.

Kopitar is 23-years old and Stamkos will be turning 21 in a couple of weeks... goose and gander - maturity, development, growth, etal and experience doesn't occur in a vacuum, and Anze isn't a unique case - as he gets better (or at least we anticipate he will), so too should that notion extend towards a younger pivot like Stamkos or Tavares... or even Jonathan Toews... Sidney Crosby is going to get better as well, for that matter.

Stamkos' biggest benefit has been the opportunity to play in and around another high-end (and cup winning) center like Lecavalier... not to mention the fact that one of the best centers in history is his General Manager.



he is a decent two-way center, whose insofar proven himself a streaky goal scorer with measurable ups and downs in the faceoff circle. his approach on attack is wholly inconsistent and very much contingent upon the limits the defending team has placed. it used to be said that Alex Frolov can flat out dominate games when he wanted to, and i think that turn better applies to Kopitar... and frankly, one would expect to see a winger 'dominate' a game far less often than a center ice man.

the pivot position not only sets the tone of attack, it dictates what happens on the following shift. Anze Kopitar has yet to consistently put that part of his game together, and that is why he isn't an elite center.

we have to concede the idea that there ARE centers in the NHL who won't put up his numbers by virtue of the fact they aren't as skilled, though may still be better up the middle altogether... i mean, really watch Jonathan Toews play.





i agree... it's a far too casual term.


even tho i agree the word elite is thrown around too much...the bolded part is just wrong. He is far from decent, he is a great 2 way center. Is he a elite 2 way center? no, but there are only 2-3 "elite" 2 way center.

not to mention what JT said...he really hasnt had alot of help in his career. He will never be as good as crosby...and people shouldnt expect that. But his results in a Defensive non-creative system with questionable 1st line talent is something that should not be overlooked.

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01-26-2011, 05:51 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by scramble91 View Post
even tho i agree the word elite is thrown around too much...the bolded part is just wrong. He is far from decent, he is a great 2 way center. Is he a elite 2 way center? no, but there are only 2-3 "elite" 2 way center.

not to mention what JT said...he really hasnt had alot of help in his career. He will never be as good as crosby...and people shouldnt expect that. But his results in a Defensive non-creative system with questionable 1st line talent is something that should not be overlooked.
Martin St. Louis is questionable first line talent?

Man this is a tough crowd

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01-26-2011, 06:08 PM
  #134
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I think Kopitar is very talented, and from time to time we see flashes of what he can really do. The problem is he doesn't consistently impose his will on the game like some others that are a cut above him do.

Like I said, I think his game would have no problem translating to the wing and he would be a deadly goal scorer (maybe even pot 50) if he had the right setup man as his center and playing with him on the PP. Just a thought.

Remember Crosby plays with guys like Dupois and lesser wingers and has no trouble getting his. I don't think it is Murray's system that stifles Kopitar as much as it is Kopitar's lack of confidence in his own ability and not realizing that with his size and skill he can pretty much will the puck to the front of the net or get his shot whenever he wants it. Does he want it bad enough?

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01-26-2011, 07:20 PM
  #135
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I think Kopitar is very talented, and from time to time we see flashes of what he can really do. The problem is he doesn't consistently impose his will on the game like some others that are a cut above him do.

Like I said, I think his game would have no problem translating to the wing and he would be a deadly goal scorer (maybe even pot 50) if he had the right setup man as his center and playing with him on the PP. Just a thought.

Remember Crosby plays with guys like Dupois and lesser wingers and has no trouble getting his. I don't think it is Murray's system that stifles Kopitar as much as it is Kopitar's lack of confidence in his own ability and not realizing that with his size and skill he can pretty much will the puck to the front of the net or get his shot whenever he wants it. Does he want it bad enough?
Agreed. With his size, speed and puck handling abilities he should dominate more games.
The question comes down to:


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01-26-2011, 07:38 PM
  #136
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Martin St. Louis is questionable first line talent?

Man this is a tough crowd
was talking about kopitar not stamkos....

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01-26-2011, 08:09 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I think Kopitar is very talented, and from time to time we see flashes of what he can really do. The problem is he doesn't consistently impose his will on the game like some others that are a cut above him do.

Like I said, I think his game would have no problem translating to the wing and he would be a deadly goal scorer (maybe even pot 50) if he had the right setup man as his center and playing with him on the PP. Just a thought.

Remember Crosby plays with guys like Dupois and lesser wingers and has no trouble getting his. I don't think it is Murray's system that stifles Kopitar as much as it is Kopitar's lack of confidence in his own ability and not realizing that with his size and skill he can pretty much will the puck to the front of the net or get his shot whenever he wants it. Does he want it bad enough?
Crosby is a step above most everyone in the league. Crosby's reputation alone gives him a step against most D. Kopi won't get that kind of space until he has more threat on his line or the Kings have four solid lines to roll. That's when his size and strength would come into play.

His game would naturally improve with better players - he needs speed and skill on one wing and speed and force on the other. If the opponents have no fear for the players around him he won't be given that kind of space. Secondly, he needs to conserve energy because he has to be so defensively responsible. He can't skate at peak level every shift, every night. No one can.

But keep in mind, Kopi is not an eye catching player like a Crosby or Malkin. He is not a flashy in your face player. He is a possession, cycle, grind it center with a lot of skill - to me, more like Thornton.

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01-26-2011, 08:39 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I think Kopitar is very talented, and from time to time we see flashes of what he can really do. The problem is he doesn't consistently impose his will on the game like some others that are a cut above him do.

Like I said, I think his game would have no problem translating to the wing and he would be a deadly goal scorer (maybe even pot 50) if he had the right setup man as his center and playing with him on the PP. Just a thought.

Remember Crosby plays with guys like Dupois and lesser wingers and has no trouble getting his. I don't think it is Murray's system that stifles Kopitar as much as it is Kopitar's lack of confidence in his own ability and not realizing that with his size and skill he can pretty much will the puck to the front of the net or get his shot whenever he wants it. Does he want it bad enough?
... Well, this pretty much precludes any discussion about Kopitar, and just shows the same pro-GM bias you've had all along. The GM has built an inferior team with a top six that's average to a little below average at its absolute best, and instead of addressing that and considering what kind of impact that has (as well as the impact the coaching philosophy has) on the team's best offensive players, it's just the same tired argument that the offensive players don't possess enough "will" or don't "want it enough" and conveniently ignoring the flaws of the overall club which are staring you right in the face. Never mind that the first line is comprised of Brown - a player who really shouldn't be on the first line, but he's playing there, and Loktionov - a player who, despite his obvious gifts, hasn't proven a thing in the NHL. And the sad thing is, Loktionov is probably the best LW that Kopitar has played with this season. Williams is a borderline top line player, Smyth certainly plays in the manner of a top liner but is obviously in the twilight of his career, and Stoll is at best adequate as a second line center. Beyond that, what is there? And yet, you're willing to say that Kopitar - despite being a point per game player and +17 on the season with a cast of teammates that is clearly lacking in talent - is essentially described by you as someone who doesn't consistently try hard. Your reference to Crosby is irrelevant; I don't think anyone is saying Kopitar is on that level, as Crosby is the best player in the World right now.

I always find it amazing how highly talented players suddenly find "will" and "heart" and "grit" and etc etc etc once they're playing alongside other highly talented players. If Kopitar got to play on a line with Patrick Kane and/or Patrick Sharp every game and Toews were here with this first line and this top six, you'd undoubtedly be questioning Toews' intangibles. And that's the whole thing about intangibles - they seem to magically appear once the roster becomes deeper and more talented. It's the same thing with "team chemistry"; it appears out of the blue as a team wins more games, and it gets misrepresented as the cause of team success, when it is in fact the effect of team success.

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01-26-2011, 11:39 PM
  #139
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Not surprised that some don't get it. Let's put it this way the game against San Jose is a big one. Has Kopitar done anything to get the Sharks off balance or make them uncomfortable in the least? Not really.

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01-27-2011, 09:59 AM
  #140
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Not surprised that some don't get it.
... Believe me, I'm not surprised that some don't get it either.

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Let's put it this way the game against San Jose is a big one. Has Kopitar done anything to get the Sharks off balance or make them uncomfortable in the least? Not really.
... Looked to me like the Sharks played pretty good defense last night, and yet the Kings still would have won in regulation had Quick not gaffed with the puck again. Unfortunately, with the top six and the philosophy behind the Kings' game, more and more opponents are showing the ability to shut down this offense. Kopitar certainly was able to contribute in other ways, but he's not a miracle worker here - as good as he is, he can't be a one-man line.

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