It was probably already said earlier but its hard to read 5 pages on a blackberry- so I'm going to say it anyways.
I think Edmonton would be lucky to have Gagner as a second line center. He could still develop into a first line center, but if we want to do damage we need to acquire a strong number two center or a first line center (depending on what Gagner develops into).
Having said that, If edmonton decides that RNH is the best player available at this years draft then having a player like Gagner is a luxury we can't afford.
I would much rather see Gagner traded away for a young top dman then be the second line center beind RNH. They are too similar.
And Tavares, Duchene and Stamkos got less ice time and were better defensively then Hall, not to mention they were centers who are more valuable then wingers.
Uh no, Stamkos and Tavares were not any better defensively than Hall is as a rookie. And were far more inconsistent offensively. Tavares hit a massive rookie wall this time last year, Taylor has like 3-4 game mini-slumps at worse and then snaps out of it. Hell John Tavares (2nd year) is -18 ... Taylor Hall as a rookie is -9.
And if Hall hasn't improved by his 4th year (hell even by next year) he will take his fair share of heat.
Boy, some people sure aren't very patient with this kid. That's alls I's gots.
That's why I don't see people being patient with a rebuild. You can see it after every loss that fans thrash the Oilers.
__________________ "He just ate up Robyn Regehr for dinner, a spectacular play by Hemsky, and Robyn Regehr has got doo doo all over his face" - Rod Phillips call on Hemsky's goal vs the Flames
Hall's GO/GA ratio is really bad, compare that to Tavares/Stamkos.
Do compare to it to Tavares please. He's -18 this year.
And Gagner is apparently worse than Taylor Hall as a rookie. So you just shot yourself in the foot with your own argument.
You are going to get **** on if you don't improve from a rookie to a 4th year player in very tangible ways. That's just what it is. Even Islander fans have taken lots of shots at Tavares this year.
If Taylor Hall is not massively better by his 4th season than he is today, this board will melt down.
I guess most here wanted to see Sam become a legit #1 center, but even if he can carve out a career as a decent #2 that's pretty good for where we got him. We all keep hearing that Schenn in LA is untouchable because he's their "second" line center of the future. If we have Hall, a draft pick, or a trade acquisition at #1, we still have a promising #2 at the least.
Gagner is a very good player who would be close to hitting PPG on a team like CHI, ATL or NYI already. He is small and has not clicked with any winger <besides Nilsson, Cogliano> here. I just dont see him here unless he clicks with someone (who is part of our future) again. Hall-Gagner-Ebs just wont cut it on a winning team
Do compare to it to Tavares please. He's -18 this year.
And Gagner is apparently worse than Taylor Hall as a rookie. So you just shot yourself in the foot with your own argument.
You are going to get **** on if you don't improve from a rookie to a 4th year player in very tangible ways. That's just what it is. Even Islander fans have taken lots of shots at Tavares this year.
If Taylor Hall is not massively better by his 4th season than he is today, this board will melt down.
I guess most here wanted to see Sam become a legit #1 center, but even if he can carve out a career as a decent #2 that's pretty good for where we got him. We all keep hearing that Schenn in LA is untouchable because he's their "second" line center of the future. If we have Hall, a draft pick, or a trade acquisition at #1, we still have a promising #2 at the least.
Perhaps the problem with Gagner is that he's had 3 coaches in years. Poti was with the Oilers for 3 years and had 3 coaches.
Gagner is a very good player who would be close to hitting PPG on a team like CHI, ATL or NYI already. He is small and has not clicked with any winger <besides Nilsson, Cogliano> here. I just dont see him here unless he clicks with someone (who is part of our future) again. Hall-Gagner-Ebs just wont cut it on a winning team
I somewhat agree with you, think he'd be more around .8ppg
Which makes Tavares' stats even worse. He should not be regressing from rookie season to 2nd year.
Exactly. But you claim that "Hall has better than Stamkos and Tavares in their rookie seasons!" When Stamkos was in a coach's doghouse with limited ice time and Tavares outproduced him.
Tavares is heating up and doesn't have the luxury of playing with a Eberle or Hemsky/Penner this year.
Hall's GO/GA ratio is really bad, compare that to Tavares/Stamkos.
He's tops on the team in TA. 28th in the league last I check. Sure his defensive side of the game has been deficient at times. He tries to do much instead of looking for quick outlets. I think letting him play a defensive role in practice might help him see the ice a bit better. Outside of that I wouldn't be comparing his defensive game to those two. Stamkos isn't a fair comparison given his teammates and Tavares, well his team is drowning along with his often inconsistencies both this year and last. I really find that playing center helps Hall play a more occupied defensive game. Instead of just floating aimlessly while trying to help his unorganized D gain possession deep in his own zone. He is a lot more effective when being used at the center of a play. He has an ability to think for others whereas a lot of wingers play best benefitting from others that WANT the puck on their own terms rather than just receive it.
In Gagner's case he has been of the confused variety lately. When he is not on the play 110% he tends to get left behind without the speed or strength to win possession back. You can tell that he has had a lot of frustration and difficulty communicating with his linemates lately. He really needs to enjoy the game more. Gagner needs to quit thinking he is Kane out there and muster up a little more courage in the dirty areas. Perhaps change his off season conditioning program to promote that.
Exactly. But you claim that "Hall has better than Stamkos and Tavares in their rookie seasons!" When Stamkos was in a coach's doghouse with limited ice time and Tavares outproduced him.
Tavares is heating up and doesn't have the luxury of playing with a Eberle or Hemsky/Penner this year.
Hall is producing quite comparably to Tavares and Stamkos in their rookie seasons and scoring at a more regular clip than either one did as rookies. Hall is also producing a helluva lot more 5-on-5 than Tavares or Stamkos or Duchene as a rookie. Taylor has to fight harder to get all his offense basically 5-on-5 because our coaching staff has a thumb up their ass about how to coach a PP.
And there's a reason Stamkos was in the coach's dog house ... he was brutal his first 30 games or so.
Also do everyone a favour and remove Hall from your screen name.
He's tops on the team in TA. 28th in the league last I check. Sure his defensive side of the game has been deficient at times. He tries to do much instead of looking for quick outlets. I think letting him play a defensive role in practice might help him see the ice a bit better. Outside of that I wouldn't be comparing his defensive game to those two. Stamkos isn't a fair comparison given his teammates and Tavares, well his team is drowning along with his often inconsistencies both this year and last. I really find that playing center helps Hall play a more occupied defensive game. Instead of just floating aimlessly while trying to help his unorganized D gain possession deep in his own zone. He is a lot more effective when being used at the center of a play. He has an ability to think for others whereas a lot of wingers play best benefitting from others that WANT the puck on their own terms rather than just receive it.
Well said, what I'm saying that is Hall should earn his ice time instead of management gift wrapping it to him, he'll be more motivated.
Wow. Any time you start comparing Hall to Stamkos in order to defend Gagner, you lose.
Let's look at Gagner's ceiling. He will never have decent speed, he will never win a physical battle, he will never have the wingspan to effectively PK.
Things he could improve, but hasn't: Faceoffs, defensive coverage, shootouts, PP playmaking.
Things that will improve: Playmaking ability, goalscoring.
So he's a $2.5M/year 2C. With glaring deficiencies that management will need to compensate for by finding strong, fast, finishing, defensively capable wingers. Keep him and find strong wingers, or find a stronger center and keep our wingers?
I think Tambellini has already decided to keep Gagner as a sub-$3M 2C. And that's fine. Our problem is defensemen, not forwards. Add Lander and a proper replacement for Souray, and dump Vandermeer, Strudwick and Foster, and the turnaround will be near-instantaneous.
Hall is producing quite comparably to Tavares and Stamkos in their rookie seasons and scoring at a more regular clip than either one did as rookies. Hall is also producing a helluva lot more 5-on-5 than Tavares or Stamkos or Duchene as a rookie. Taylor has to fight harder to get all his offense basically 5-on-5 because our coaching staff has a thumb up their ass about how to coach a PP.
And there's a reason Stamkos was in the coach's dog house ... he was brutal his first 30 games or so.
Also do everyone a favour and remove Hall from your screen name.
You don't deserve to have it, what a farce.
He's producing worse numbers then Tavares and is mainly outproducing Stamkos because he gets a lot of ice time.
Anyways, I will stand by my opinion and appreciate it if you (or anyone else) don't throw personal attacks at me just because I am stating the deficiencies of Hall as a rookie compared to JT, Duchene and Stamkos.
Hall will be a damn good player, Iginla-lite. I am just questioning Hall's abilities as a hockey player that is all.
He's producing worse numbers then Tavares and is mainly outproducing Stamkos because he gets a lot of ice time.
Anyways, I will stand by my opinion and appreciate it if you (or anyone else) don't throw personal attacks at me just because I am stating the deficiencies of Hall as a rookie compared to JT, Duchene and Stamkos.
Hall will be a damn good player, Iginla-lite. I am just questioning Hall's abilities as a hockey player that is all.
Cheers.
So we shouldn't criticize Sam Gagner, but "questioning" Taylor Hall is ok?
Gimme a break. In 4 years Sam Gagner is not even going to be able to carry Taylor Hall's jock strap.
And Taylor Hall is on pace for more goals as a rookie than Tavares, Duchene, or Stamkos. Fact. Without any gravy points coming from the PP either.
Well said, what I'm saying that is Hall should earn his ice time instead of management gift wrapping it to him, he'll be more motivated.
I agree. That's why I'd like to see him play an unorthodox role in practice to change his perceptions when exiting the zone. There is no question that he gets a little too cute when completing seemingly obvious and simple tasks. He brings that from possibly a sense of entitlement from always being the guy counted on and wanting to be the center of attention on the ice. I personally would like to see Gagner play his wing for a change.
