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Old
01-31-2011, 07:50 PM
  #101
Johnny Utah
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Actually, for you all...this is a quote pulled right from Hammond's site straight from our General Manager's mouth. A laywer who has been working in the game for a long time.

“But I think what he showed this year, him and Clifford, Clifford would be in the same mold. He had a little taste of the minors and stepped right in and did really well, everything from the way he played to… Let’s just say that with Burrows and Bieksa, we’re starting to get a few more guys to deal with that stuff. So he will fit in very well when those guys take liberties. We are starting to get closer and closer to handling that part. Give Clune another year. Westgarth is going to challenge for a job. With Cliffy here, we’ll put some of this stuff to bed. I got a little off-track there, because it makes me mad."

http://lakingsinsider.com/2010/06/02...ects/#comments

Does it sound like Lombardi is in that 2%? Does it ever sound like Murray is?

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01-31-2011, 08:22 PM
  #102
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Wouldn't this all be completely irrelevent if TM quit letting the other teams coach dictate when Westgarth plays and sits? I mean how many games has Westgarth played solely because the other team dressed a big fighter... How many of those games are against the top teams in the league like the Flyers, Blackhawks, Vancouver, etc. Could that be why the record is the way it is?

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01-31-2011, 08:24 PM
  #103
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The problem I see is that Westgarth plays 5 minutes a night and fights the other teams tough guy. In a way I guess we can kinda pretend he protects players like Kopitar, etc. In reality if Kopitar is taken out with a hard hit from a guy like Smid or a forward like Callahan is it Westgarth that will go out and enforce the don't touch my star player. NO, he may go out and fight another goon like himself that no one really misses or cares about if they get hurt.

Its guys like Brown, and other skilled tough as nails players that go out of their way to pay back an opposing star player through legal bodychecks etc. Skilled guys like Brown, Phanuef, Callahan, Dubinsky and even Doughty can lay the boom down to make a point or even the score.

I think the true heavyweight is going to be extinct soon. Teams will load up on gritty, skilled players that can fight, play defence, and pop in the odd goal. Wayne Simmonds comes to mind as an example.

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01-31-2011, 11:21 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Whoa whoa, dude. I gave a long winded defense a few pages back but then some of these immature little kids started attacking and insulting me, so I resorted to sacarsm.

Fighting is not going anywhere Zad. Darren Dreger said today on 640am that there are 15 players out right now with concussion issues and the number of hits right now in the NHL is at the highest it has ever been. Still, 98% of the players are in favor of fighting....Why? That stat has not gone down over the past 50 years....2% is in the NO and all of a sudden you think in the next 5-10 years players will go from 2% to say 50%? No way. No one wanted clutching and grabbing except the New Jersey Devils. Not players, not the fans. Most fans want fighting, most coaches want it. Hell, even Mike Babcock said he likes fighting. Who sits down and shakes their head in sadness during a live hockey fight? No one I ever see...

Players want to feel protected. You will be more apt to throw the body and go harder in the corners and mix it up in scrums. You know that if it came down to it, someone would step in for you if you were outmatched or cheap shotted.

I know the feeling when you are the only scrappy player for your team out there, it sucks...It all falls on you and you know that though some guys may have your back, they aren't really capable of really doing anything about it like Adam Mair did for the Kings years back. That's probably how Clifford feels some nights especially when Simmonds was hurt. You think Scuderi, Lewis and Co. are gonna start throwing punches or pushing guys out of the way. Ha. No way. Whether anyone likes it or not the Kings were only tough to play against versus Vancouver last year were Brown and Simmonds and Hordichuk, Rypien and Burrows were in Brown and Doughty's face every night...Who did anything....? No one...At least Clune had the balls to mix it up and start stirring it up and challenge Rypien.

I've said this a million times you give me a more balanced and tougher Kings team and I will agree that an enforcer is not needed late in the season and in the playoffs....But when all you have is Greene (a punching bag), Simmonds (who is good for about 4 fights a year), and a 20 year old badass, but still young in Clifford, you are in trouble.

Other teams have much more balanced toughness....we have none on our top 6 forwards, none on our top 3 D. That's a fact. Who is worried about playing against Kopitar, Loktionov, Stoll, Williams and Smyth? Or Scuderi and Johnson? Brown, yes, people hate playing against him, but he doesn't fight...Look what Francis Bouillon did to him, challenged him to a fight for about 30 seconds and Brown backed down, so Simmonds had to step in and end that.

Even Lombardi commented in his end of the year interview on Hammond's site that he was upset a Vancouver pushing us around and that things would change next year (this year) with Clifford and Westgarth.
Holy crap, we are having a dialogue about this. Cool. Let's keep going.

First, I want to make sure I understand your premise. If I am off here at all, please correct me.

1. Fighting is necessary to allow players who don't fight to hit and be physical.
2. Fighting is necessary to prevent players from taking liberties at the opposing players
3. Fighting is necessary because it allows a channel other than sticks to be used to settle issues that occur on the ice.

My response:

1. I think the first issue is apples and oranges. No relevance between hitting and fighting. The intent of checking is to separate the man from the puck. It isn't to separate his head from his body. Players have gotten bigger, stronger, faster and there is less respect today I believe than there was 20 years ago. So, if there is a clean hit, there is no penalty and any reaction to that hit through a fight is unnecessary. As Murray as said, when it is a good "hockey hit" (recall Doughty hit on Hall), then the extra stuff after the whistle is absurd and has no place in the game. I trust you know the quote. If not, I will post it. Thus, there is no relationship between clean hits and fighting although I understand you may be drawing a relationship between dirty hits and fighting to your second issue, which I will address shortly. Take Dustin Brown for example. Am I supposed to believe he would hit less if Westgarth or an enforcer was in the lineup? Well, if there is no fighting in the game, then he certainly doesn't have to worry about getting jumped after a good hit and if he does, there is hell to pay in penalties, fines and suspensions. Further, if fighting is out of the game, then there may be MORE clean hitting in the game because the hitter is less concerned about having to pay an unfair consequence from the opposing team's enforcer.

2. By liberties, I mean dirty hits. I assume that is what you meant on this issue. Regarding dirty hits, I don't want to see them. I don't want to see head shots, boardings, hits that are intended to injure. Has no place in the game. Cheap shots cause the game to lose credibility. Fighting in response to cheap shots doesn't dissuade them. Head shots, cheap shots, etc. have been around the game for decades and yet it continues to happen each season and is getting progressively worse. By that fact, fighting has done NOTHING to prevent it. Only stricter rule enforcement will prevent liberties from being taken. Longer suspensions and bigger fines, not just fines against the player but also the team. The NHL is giving a passing interest to the head shots issue right now. They give sound bites but the penalties imposed are not proportionate to the crime. Give an automatic 5 game suspension and $25,0000 fine on the first offense and 10 game and $50,000 fine on the second and watch head shots completely disappear from the game. Bettman is a moron and has handled this issue like his character suggests...but I digress...

3. Then we get to what I believe to be your most interesting argument which was also my argument for why fighting exists and should exist in the game when I played and thereafter until about the last 5 or so years. Here is the problem with the argument. It is based entirely on assumptions - the assumption is that hockey players will turn into wild and rabid maniacs and will start hacking away at each other's heads if the enforcers on the respective teams aren't allowed to punch each other. As I thought about this over the years, I asked myself this question: How many McSorley types of incidents have there been? Well, you got Marty's, you have Bertuzzi's and several others in the past decade. Did fighting being in the game prevent any of those? No. Will fighting being out of the game cause Clifford to go nuts and take off Perry's head with his stick? No. Nor would it cause any player who isn't out of his mind at the moment to do such a thing. The crazy stick incidents are rare and isolated situations and the offenders are generally players in those very limited situations who lost it. Whether or not those players (ironically, often times THE ENFORCER that eliminating fighting would eliminate from the game) have to drop the gloves thereafter is irrelevant.

I know Johnny, you are now completed persuaded by my arguments and are ready to embrace eliminating fighting from the game, right? No. Ok, then keep the dialogue going.

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Old
02-04-2011, 06:18 PM
  #105
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Did you manage the catch the Bruins Stars game last night? Can you imagine hockey without a game like this? Look how pumped the fans were. How can a team play against guys like Burrish, Ott, Sutherby and Barch and not be able to retalliate? Dallas came in with there tough roster looking to intimidate and Boston answered the bell.

Nick Kypreos asked Rob Ray this morning on Fan 590 how many senseless fights have you been in....Ray said only a "handful" in his career. Ray said the opposing team would back off and some guys would take the night off after he would get into fights. Any fights sends the message it is going to be a long night for the opposition. Kypreos said it best, if you take 2 points, those points will "come at a price." Isn't that what Lombardi been preaching for years for our team?

http://www.fan590.com/media.jsp?cont...4_132816_14272

Did you see the 1996 World Cup? Even then there were fights between US and Canada...Guerin vs Primeau and Tkachuk vs Claude Lemeiux were the two fights I remember as well as Chelios battling Lindros. Even in a best of 3 games in a world stage these guys couldn't not fight. How the hell do you think in 82 games none of these players will lose there temper once and throw a punch or swing a stick? It is unimaginable.

Even with the instigator rule guys are still coming to the defense of teammates after good, hard hits. Why is that? They are risking ejections and penalties to protect there teammates and send a message to the opposing team that they won't stand for that. Fighting will always have a place in this sport. Since 1917 there has been fighting, almost one hundred years...It is not going anywhere. The league knows this. They inserted the instigator rule and backed off. The topic of eliminating fighting was brought up at the GM meetings a season or two ago and shot down immediately.

So you have the GM's wanting to keep it, 98% of the players, all the fans that stand during the games and cult followings online. It really doesn't matter what I say, those numbers and facts speak for themselves. It is not going anywhere. The NHL doesn't want to admit it but some of the draw with fans, especially to live games IS fighting and if they take that away they will lose some of the fans especially in North America, where in certain markets they are already having problems drawing crowds. Look at the Coyotes and how hard they sell Paul Bissonette, he is on various local magazine covers and shot a local commercial down in Phoenix.


Last edited by Johnny Utah: 02-04-2011 at 06:32 PM.
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Old
02-04-2011, 08:59 PM
  #106
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The NHL wants to cut down on blows to the head but allows fighting? Now Dipietro is out due to a hit to the head and Ivanans is still out with a concussion due to fighting. The NHL needs to come out of the dark ages and kick players out for fighting. IMO these "momentum" changing premeditated fights make the NHL and the goons involved look stupid.

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02-04-2011, 09:28 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Did you manage the catch the Bruins Stars game last night? Can you imagine hockey without a game like this? Look how pumped the fans were. How can a team play against guys like Burrish, Ott, Sutherby and Barch and not be able to retalliate? Dallas came in with there tough roster looking to intimidate and Boston answered the bell.

Nick Kypreos asked Rob Ray this morning on Fan 590 how many senseless fights have you been in....Ray said only a "handful" in his career. Ray said the opposing team would back off and some guys would take the night off after he would get into fights. Any fights sends the message it is going to be a long night for the opposition. Kypreos said it best, if you take 2 points, those points will "come at a price." Isn't that what Lombardi been preaching for years for our team?

http://www.fan590.com/media.jsp?cont...4_132816_14272

Did you see the 1996 World Cup? Even then there were fights between US and Canada...Guerin vs Primeau and Tkachuk vs Claude Lemeiux were the two fights I remember as well as Chelios battling Lindros. Even in a best of 3 games in a world stage these guys couldn't not fight. How the hell do you think in 82 games none of these players will lose there temper once and throw a punch or swing a stick? It is unimaginable.

Even with the instigator rule guys are still coming to the defense of teammates after good, hard hits. Why is that? They are risking ejections and penalties to protect there teammates and send a message to the opposing team that they won't stand for that. Fighting will always have a place in this sport. Since 1917 there has been fighting, almost one hundred years...It is not going anywhere. The league knows this. They inserted the instigator rule and backed off. The topic of eliminating fighting was brought up at the GM meetings a season or two ago and shot down immediately.

So you have the GM's wanting to keep it, 98% of the players, all the fans that stand during the games and cult followings online. It really doesn't matter what I say, those numbers and facts speak for themselves. It is not going anywhere. The NHL doesn't want to admit it but some of the draw with fans, especially to live games IS fighting and if they take that away they will lose some of the fans especially in North America, where in certain markets they are already having problems drawing crowds. Look at the Coyotes and how hard they sell Paul Bissonette, he is on various local magazine covers and shot a local commercial down in Phoenix.
Absolutely keep the spontaneous fights that occur because of an incident during or at the end of a shift. The premeditated ones immediately after a faceoff should come with 10 minute misconducts.

Rob Ray played in a different era, and the World Cup fights you mentioned were from skilled players. I just don't see how any of the rest of it is relevant to modern day hockey.

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02-04-2011, 09:32 PM
  #108
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Whether you like fighting or you don't like it, the simple fact is Westgarth sucks.

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02-06-2011, 02:13 AM
  #109
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13-3-1

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02-07-2011, 05:00 PM
  #110
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We are also 5-0-1 without Sturm...what does that mean? We are also 25-21-2 without Parse...Should we crap on him?

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02-07-2011, 05:04 PM
  #111
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Quote:
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We are also 25-21-2 without Parse...Should we crap on him?
Not Scotty Parse!!!

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02-07-2011, 06:36 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
We are also 5-0-1 without Sturm...what does that mean?
That is because Westgarth has been out of those games. Games with Marco Sturm and no Westgarth: 4-1. Nice try though.


Quote:
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We are also 25-21-2 without Parse...Should we crap on him?
They are 4-1 with Parse in the lineup, you're not doing very well with your argument.

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02-07-2011, 06:41 PM
  #113
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I think you phonies missed my whole argument. Go back and read my post where I quoted Nick Kypreos and Rob Ray, toughness is about knowing that whether you win or lose it's gonna be a tough 2 points for your opponnet. It's knowing that teams will have to keep there head up, know that it is going to be a long night physically and they can't take shots at our star players or take extra shoves after the whistle. That is not a stat that can be put into wins or losses. Players talk about other teams all the time...Just the other day someone was saying that teams ask Edmonton's beat writers if MacIntyre is playing and if Stortini is playing, and they used to breath a sigh of relief when Mac wasn't and Stortini was. That's not something that can be measured by wins or losses. Players know that when the play Edmonton with Jacques, Vandermeer and MacIntyre, it's gonna be a long night and they won't be able to run the smaller, younger guys without consequences.

I'll never forget a game agaisnt Nashville early in the year where Shane O'Brien, a notorious King bully, was in a scrum in front of the net and then Westgarth skated up and he looked the other way. Can that be measured in a win loss stat? Richardson and Lewis weren't demolished after the whistle because of it.

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02-07-2011, 06:43 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I think you phonies missed my whole argument. Go back and read my post where I quoted Nick Kypreos and Rob Ray, toughness is about knowing that whether you win or lose the other teams knows they have to keep there head up, know that it is going to be a long night and they can't take shots at our star players. That is not a stat that can be put into wins or losses. Players talk about other teams all the time...Just the other day someone was saying that teams ask Edmonton's beat writers if MacIntyre is playing and if Stortini is playing, and they used to breath a sigh of relief when Mac wasn't and Stortini was. That's not something that can be measured by wins or losses. Players know that when the play Edmonton with Jacques, Vandermeer and MacIntyre, it's gonna be a long night and they won't be able to run the smaller, younger guys without consequences.
The Kings are 8-2 when I don't stab myself with a fork

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02-07-2011, 06:47 PM
  #115
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The Kings are 8-2 when I don't stab myself with a fork
Why are you stabbing yourself with a fork? Better yet, good thing they aren't 8-2 when you do stab yourself with a fork...

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02-07-2011, 07:23 PM
  #116
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Kings are 4-0 when I wear my ratty old Kings t-shirt. 0-3-1 when I don't. This of course is only since I decided to be superstitious about it.

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02-07-2011, 07:45 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I think you phonies missed my whole argument. Go back and read my post where I quoted Nick Kypreos and Rob Ray, toughness is about knowing that whether you win or lose it's gonna be a tough 2 points for your opponnet. It's knowing that teams will have to keep there head up, know that it is going to be a long night physically and they can't take shots at our star players or take extra shoves after the whistle. That is not a stat that can be put into wins or losses. Players talk about other teams all the time...Just the other day someone was saying that teams ask Edmonton's beat writers if MacIntyre is playing and if Stortini is playing, and they used to breath a sigh of relief when Mac wasn't and Stortini was. That's not something that can be measured by wins or losses. Players know that when the play Edmonton with Jacques, Vandermeer and MacIntyre, it's gonna be a long night and they won't be able to run the smaller, younger guys without consequences.

I'll never forget a game agaisnt Nashville early in the year where Shane O'Brien, a notorious King bully, was in a scrum in front of the net and then Westgarth skated up and he looked the other way. Can that be measured in a win loss stat? Richardson and Lewis weren't demolished after the whistle because of it.
That's all well and good...

but is Westgarth actually tough? Does he actually accomplish all of the things you mention? Is your anecdotal evidence of something that DIDN'T happen actual proof that Westgarth acts as a deterrent?

Or are you just pathologically determined to have someone in the lineup who fills the "enforcer" slot?

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02-07-2011, 07:54 PM
  #118
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While I like fighting I am more of a fan of winning. And the kings have a much better chance to win with Westgarth eating popcorn in the rafters.

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02-07-2011, 08:00 PM
  #119
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While I like fighting I am more of a fan of winning. And the kings have a much better chance to win with Westgarth eating popcorn in the rafters.
There is an MTA commercial with Westgarth doing exactly that, eating popcorn in the stands with a WNBA player while he is watching the Kings game. Kinda fitting..

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02-07-2011, 08:44 PM
  #120
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I loving fighting, think it is a key part of the game. As is in intimidation, hitting scrums, chippiness, beaking all that down and gritty type of hockey...My favorite players have always been in the power forward mold...Neely, Lindros, Deadmarsh.

However, somebody like Westgarth does NOTHING for intimidation or whatever he is supposed to do. Westgarth, like most true heavyweights, does not "jump" people, so really what does a Matt Cooke have to fear from a guy like Westgarth? This is what we are talking about right...protecting players through intimidation? Cooke could run around and do whatever he wants but really what is a Westgarth going to do, jump someone 6 inches smaller than him? No having guys like Clifford, Simmonds, Laperriere, Gleason, Backes these are guys people hate to play against. They have the speed, tenacity, hitting, grittiness and can and will drop them with anybody. Nobody cares if Westgarth is just standing there. **** heavyweights.

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02-10-2011, 11:39 PM
  #121
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Anyone got the updated stats on Westie's Win Loss stats?

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02-11-2011, 12:06 AM
  #122
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Anyone got the updated stats on Westie's Win Loss stats?
If I'm not mistaken those numbers took a hit tonight. But I"m sure all the players felt real safe all night.

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02-11-2011, 12:08 AM
  #123
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That is because Westgarth has been out of those games. Games with Marco Sturm and no Westgarth: 4-1. Nice try though.




They are 4-1 with Parse in the lineup, you're not doing very well with your argument.
I'm sorry, but this is awesome.

I'm all for fighting, especially the way that Clifford does it, where it seems like he's actually fighting to hurt the other guy. The problem is Westgarth. He's a terrible hockey player by NHL standards, plays 2-3 minutes a night, pretty much never wins a fight, where's the upside?

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02-11-2011, 12:14 AM
  #124
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We are in serious trouble if one player who had less than 2:40 of ice time is the sole reason that we lose *any* game, period.

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02-11-2011, 12:23 AM
  #125
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TG, you're missing the point. The nights Westgarth is playing his lousy 2, 3, 5 or whatever minutes it's that Richardson could have been out there playing 10 or 12 minutes and making 100 times more of a difference out on the ice. Westgarth is a liability.


This is now 10 losses out of the last 11 games he's played.

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