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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Skating Speed, Shot Velocity, Reaction Time, and Lloyd Percival

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Old
01-27-2011, 04:33 PM
  #26
Rhiessan71
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Marc-Andre Bergeron is only 5'9" 104mph, size is overrated.

Chara has the official record @105.4 but the unofficial record is held by Sheldon Souray @106.7 at the Oiler's skills comp in '09.


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Old
01-27-2011, 05:12 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
It can't be an appreciable impact otherwise it would have been explored by manufacturers, who are lightening the weight in the blade as much as possible to increase swing speed. As I said, I haven't found a single resource about slapshots that says a heavier stick will make for a faster shot. The biggest things are the amount of energy that can be stored in the stick, and the player himself, who will create the swing speed and put the force into the stick.

All things equal (obviously not a real case scenario), a taller player would be able to get more torque out of a longer stick, which is why the taller players typically have the hardest shots (or players that use really long sticks).

I'd definitely agree Hull would be as much a beast today as he was back then. His physique is more muscular than most players and his strength and skating ability would likely mean he'd have one of the hardest shots.
It doesn't have an appreciable impact because mass is inversely proportional to swing speed (common sense). I'm not taking issue with the idea that a lighter stick can produce the same speed of slap shot as a heavier stick; I'm objecting to the idea that mass of stick of inconsequential, which it is clearly not.

Kinetic energy is directly related to mass, as is momentum.

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01-27-2011, 10:20 PM
  #28
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The average shot speed of 80 mph is entirely believable to me.
So I do not automatically dismiss the top end measurements, but I tend to think they were at least moving.

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01-27-2011, 11:52 PM
  #29
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i said in OP that the measurements are inflated, and i am surprised so many posters are mentioning that rather than comparing the players.


gordie howe really stands out to me. he was the most accurate passer, was fast and was a great shooter.

i knew he was highly skilled at his best, but i was surprised those were still had elite skills when was he was 39 years old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Two things that stand out instantly:

- the calibration of the devices they used to measure objects at high speeds, like flying pucks, has to be off. There couldn't be that many people shooting that fast.

- Look at the speeds of the league's fastest players (I assume those are the fastest) and then look at the team averages. This is a massive gap between the league's fastest, average, and worst skaters. You have Hull at 29, a handful of players within 2 mph, but then the fastest team only averages 22. Which means for every player at 25, they likely have one at 19. Look at the NY Rangers, averaging 19. So for every guy at 22, they'd have to have a guy at 16 to average 19.

There were some really slow players back then, compared to the stars. There were players who literally could barely skate half as fast as Bobby Hull.
differences in skating are also very apparent from video of the time.

it would be interesting to find and compare similar measurements from other eras.

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Old
01-28-2011, 02:04 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
It's surely suspicious, but it's not a "disproof".
I don't see how it can be anything other than that. But to be more specific, when people here about Bobby Hull's 118mph slapshot speed we see it as 'mythical' because we assume everyone else is shooting at a normal 80-100 mph. To be that much better than everyone else you're pretty much Hercules. But then seeing the recorded numbers of other players at the time also shattering modern NHL records and topping 110mph buts things into perspective and brings Hull, relative to his peers, more into the McInnis or Iafrate level of slap shot dominance.

Just knowing that Gordie Howe could also apparently fire a wrist shot at 114 MPH put's everything into perspective. I'm really glad I know this now because I never knew what to make of the legendary Bobby Hull slapshot before.

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01-28-2011, 04:00 AM
  #31
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Interesting but not all that surprising to see F. Mahovlich and especially Howe so high on the 'skating speed' list. It's the older (was he ever young? ) and slower version of Howe I've mostly seen.

And Mahovlich... just goes to show that those tallish players who have long strides skate faster than it looks. The Russian equivalent would be Sergei Kapustin, who IMO was maybe the fastest Soviet skater of all-time in his prime (pre-80s) - even though he may not have looked it.

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01-28-2011, 04:01 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
It's surely suspicious, but it's not a "disproof".
For all intents and purposed it is "disproof"....at least in relation to how shots are measured today.

It is simply inconceivable that 6 players on 1967 had faster slapshots than the fastest of modern record (which spans, what, 20 years?).

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01-28-2011, 08:45 AM
  #33
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Really, all one has to do is go to the stickied thread in this section with all the old games, and see for themselves that these are not even remotely close to being right. Exagerrated by atleast 30-40 mph. Why? Were they doing this purposely? Because go watch one of those games and you'd be hardpressed to see a Gordie Howe wrist shot leave the ground... anyone who believes those... yeah I don't know what to tell you.

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01-28-2011, 08:59 AM
  #34
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Thanks for posting this. I knew it was out there somewhere & that Percival was involved. Never thought of looking in "popular mechanics"

I am sure the results are correct as Percival would have nothing to gain by falsifying them. I agree that the shot speed measurements likely were done under a different methodology than what is used today as I am surprised to see so many shots over 100mph. My gut feeling is to take about 10mph off to bring them in line with todays methodology.

The results are interesting & the rankings mostly in line. Percival was way ahead of his time. Is anybody doing that kind of research today?

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01-28-2011, 09:02 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Interesting but not all that surprising to see F. Mahovlich and especially Howe so high on the 'skating speed' list. It's the older (was he ever young? ) and slower version of Howe I've mostly seen.

And Mahovlich... just goes to show that those tallish players who have long strides skate faster than it looks. The Russian equivalent would be Sergei Kapustin, who IMO was maybe the fastest Soviet skater of all-time in his prime (pre-80s) - even though he may not have looked it.
The big M always looked extremely fast to me. I agree that Howe had a very long stride that gave the impression that he was going much slower than he really was.

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Old
01-28-2011, 09:28 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
Because go watch one of those games and you'd be hardpressed to see a Gordie Howe wrist shot leave the ground...
When you see **** like this it makes you wonder about the state of the HOH forum. This is not only disrespectful but is absolutely incorrect.

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01-28-2011, 09:38 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
When you see **** like this it makes you wonder about the state of the HOH forum. This is not only disrespectful but is absolutely incorrect.
OMG. Really? Do I need to embed the link?

You don't really believe those numbers do you? It's not only that they're not real, once again, they're not even close.

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01-28-2011, 09:39 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Thanks for posting this. I knew it was out there somewhere & that Percival was involved. Never thought of looking in "popular mechanics"

I am sure the results are correct as Percival would have nothing to gain by falsifying them. I agree that the shot speed measurements likely were done under a different methodology than what is used today as I am surprised to see so many shots over 100mph. My gut feeling is to take about 10mph off to bring them in line with todays methodology.

The results are interesting & the rankings mostly in line. Percival was way ahead of his time. Is anybody doing that kind of research today?
Given you actually saw these players play, I have a question. It doesnít really seem logical to me that both Howe and Beliveau had harder wrist shots than slapshots (according to the #ís posted). In your experience seeing them play, is that due to those 2 specifically not using the traditional wind-up that most associate with a slapshot? Rather, they used more of a snap shot?

As well, itís too bad Geoffrion was out of the league at this time. Would have loved to see how his #ís stack up.

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01-28-2011, 09:40 AM
  #39
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I don't care if they were skating full speed into those, I've seen literally over 50 full games from start to finish in the 1960-1970 time period, and once again, those numbers are nowhere close to being real. Not close.

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01-28-2011, 09:41 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
OMG. Really? Do I need to embed the link?

You don't really believe those numbers do you? It's not only that they're not real, once again, they're not even close.
Don't be ridiculous. I saw Gordie Howe play.

I already gave my opinion on the data. I am not doing it again .

There is a reason I usually ignore your posts.

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01-28-2011, 09:44 AM
  #41
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Gordie Howe had a wrist shot, 9mph faster than Chara's slapshot???

Go watch games of the two side by side if you get some time...

Keep your eyes on Chara's slapshot and Howe's wrist shot, then tell me how they compare.

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01-28-2011, 09:45 AM
  #42
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Also love it how once again I'm seen as hating old players because of simply stating those numbers aren't true. It's fairly obvious to me, and should be to most.

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01-28-2011, 09:48 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
Given you actually saw these players play, I have a question. It doesnít really seem logical to me that both Howe and Beliveau had harder wrist shots than slapshots (according to the #ís posted). In your experience seeing them play, is that due to those 2 specifically not using the traditional wind-up that most associate with a slapshot? Rather, they used more of a snap shot?

As well, itís too bad Geoffrion was out of the league at this time. Would have loved to see how his #ís stack up.
I think you are right. I do not remember Howe or Beliveau (esp Howe) taking big wind up slap shots.

I am curious about the study. wonder how many players they tested. Would be interesting to see all the results & the methodology though I doubt it still exists.

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01-28-2011, 09:52 AM
  #44
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Yep I'm watching one of those games right now in the stickied thread and I'd honestly like to know where he pulled those numbers out of. Honestly, anyone have a clue?

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01-28-2011, 09:54 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
Gordie Howe had a wrist shot, 9mph faster than Chara's slapshot???

Go watch games of the two side by side if you get some time...

Keep your eyes on Chara's slapshot and Howe's wrist shot, then tell me how they compare.
Do you even read the thread & think before you post? Obviously not. You should try it sometime if you ever want to gain any respect in this forum.

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01-28-2011, 09:59 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Do you even read the thread & think before you post? Obviously not. You should try it sometime if you ever want to gain any respect in this forum.
I'm simply stating, very simply I might add, that those numbers a greatly exagerrated. The proof is in the tape in this very section, not sure what you're defending.

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01-28-2011, 10:01 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
I'm simply stating, very simply I might add, that those numbers a greatly exagerrated. The proof is in the tape in this very section, not sure what you're defending.
He's questioning your assertion that Howe couldn't even raise the puck off the ice.

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Old
01-28-2011, 10:02 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I think you are right. I do not remember Howe or Beliveau (esp Howe) taking big wind up slap shots.

I am curious about the study. wonder how many players they tested. Would be interesting to see all the results & the methodology though I doubt it still exists.
I'd have to question the methods used to determine a total teams skating speed. Unless he went to practices, and timed each player idividually over a set distance (certinally possible), I would question the accuracy.

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Old
01-28-2011, 10:18 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
He's questioning your assertion that Howe couldn't even raise the puck off the ice.
I didn't say he wasn't capable. I'm saying, that a lot of his wrist shots in the games, as well as most shots in general by other players, were of ground level.

The main POINT being... those numbers aren't real.

So knowing that, would anyone care to explain how or why they are recorded as they are?

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Old
01-28-2011, 10:48 AM
  #50
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Great find. Thanks for posting this.

Gordie Howe's numbers are extremely impressive. The best or almost the best in every category, as one of the oldest players in the league.

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