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01-30-2011, 01:33 AM
  #326
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Why would Rathje retire and forfeit money coming to him? If Holmgren did rip him, he'd be a moron.
He didn't rip him so that is a moot point... isn't it? I mentioned that to put it on record that Homer made a point to not rip him, just in case people here would bring that up... I didn't want to mislead anyone.

And "Why" would he retire... Well it is not unheard of for a player to retire when they can no longer do the job, and are hurting their team Cap-wise or in other ways... and get any insurance money and work out with the organization ways to make up any lost money -- you know the Flyers would make it so he wouldn't lose money -- He wasn't not an over 35 player so he could have helped the club with retirement... Didn't Primeau retire when he admitted to himself that he couldn't return?... Didn't Hatcher also (not 100% sure on him) and take a coaching role?

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01-30-2011, 01:34 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
He didn't rip him so that is a moot point... isn't it? I mentioned that to put it on record that Homer made a point to not rip him, just in case people here would bring that up... I didn't want to mislead anyone.

And "Why" would he retire... Well it is not unheard of for a player to retire when they can no longer do the job, and are hurting their team Cap-wise or in other ways... and get any insurance money and work out with the organization ways to make up any lost money -- you know the Flyers would make it so he wouldn't lose money -- He wasn't not an over 35 player so he could have helped the club with retirement... Didn't Primeau retire when he admitted to himself that he couldn't return?... Didn't Hatcher also (not 100% sure on him) and take a coaching role?
No, neither of them retired. Hatcher helped out with the team, but he was on LTIR for the entire season left on his deal. Primeau ran out his contract as well, I am pretty sure. I know for a fact he was still on LTIR the following year, but that was all before we had the good resources for cap space so didn't track it.

Importantly, unless a player gets personal insurance... insured contracts are for the TEAM, not the player. There is no way the Flyers were going to pay Rathje 10.5M or whatever over those years to do odd jobs around the team.

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01-30-2011, 01:37 AM
  #328
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yes you have to be catholic, isnt the Pope? All else doesnt matter
Dude... managing a small corporation is complex... just the political aspect of the Pope's job is complex... Surely you don't have to be Catholic or even believe in a God to understand that?... Look at it this way, he is the leader of a small country and a huge diocese.

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01-30-2011, 01:40 AM
  #329
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Just playing off the Primeau thing... Primeau not figuring out his status earlier in the offseason was a major contributing factor to the organization suffering the worst season in its history.

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01-30-2011, 01:41 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
Dude... managing a small corporation is complex... just the political aspect of the Pope's job is complex... Surely you don't have to be Catholic or even believe in a God to understand that?... Look at it this way, he is the leader of a small country and a huge diocese.
hey chief, do i really need a sarcasm smiley? are you that dense. Relax and go do a shot yukon jack

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01-30-2011, 01:43 AM
  #331
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Just playing off the Primeau thing... Primeau not figuring out his status earlier in the offseason was a major contributing factor to the organization suffering the worst season in its history.
dont f with primeau. My sons name is Primo. That means #1 in Italian. you would have no idea how many people ask me if i named him after the hockey player.

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01-30-2011, 01:44 AM
  #332
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No, neither of them retired. Hatcher helped out with the team, but he was on LTIR for the entire season left on his deal. Primeau ran out his contract as well, I am pretty sure. I know for a fact he was still on LTIR the following year, but that was all before we had the good resources for cap space so didn't track it.

Importantly, unless a player gets personal insurance... insured contracts are for the TEAM, not the player. There is no way the Flyers were going to pay Rathje 10.5M or whatever over those years to do odd jobs around the team.
I'd have to look up those players before I can argue with you... but I'm not convinced... no matter though.

And yes the Flyers would have 'helped him' enough to make up for it... if Snider realized it gave them more money to spend on the on-ice roster. $10.5M is nothing... and aren't they spending it anyway for him to sit at home? Why not spend it for him to change light bulbs and have a player come in that would have stopped #88's awful clincher... or a rental vet D-man or winger? The money is gone either way... isn't it? Or am I missing something... which is possible haha.

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01-30-2011, 01:48 AM
  #333
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I'd have to look up those players before I can argue with you... but I'm not convinced... no matter though.
Hatcher is for sure. I think they even listed him as a injured scratch the entire season on the telecasts. Primeau, as said, was back before the information was getting put in the public domain. However, there was a mod here back then (who went on to make the site that is now attached to Hockey Buzz for tracking the cap if I remember right) that had access to the registered contacts, and Primeau was on our LTIR space at least through the season of suck...

And, frankly, Primeau still has PCS... he should have been collecting that money.

Quote:
And yes the Flyers would have 'helped him' enough to make up for it... if Snider realized it gave them more money to spend on the on-ice roster. $10.5M is nothing... and aren't they spending it anyway for him to sit at home? Why not spend it for him to change light bulbs and have a player come in that would have stopped #88's awful clincher... or a rental vet D-man or winger? The money is gone either way... isn't it? Or am I missing something... which is possible haha.
What you are describing is the very definition of salary cap circumvention. Paying a player to retire to help your cap situation? Don't see why there might be a problem there?

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01-30-2011, 01:57 AM
  #334
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Yes, GMs need to have management skills. Management skills that a managers have to have in a variety of other industries and positions.

However, lets be real about being the GM of a sports team. Hell, lets just make it the NHL. If I was to airlift one of the posters on this board that is truly clued in (has a solid grasp on the various levels of professional hockey, what players are there, etc.) into a GM position in the NHL, I'd wager they could do a passable job (certainly no worse than what we see from the plethora of guys out there). Importantly, this person would not necessarily have any management experience in that type of workplace, or the connections within the business (which certainly helps).

For the sake of argument, we'll just assume that the person we picked has the mental acumen to be in a management position for a major entity... because it's certainly fair to argue that not everyone is suited for a managerial role.

Now, imagine if I dropped that same person into any other high level management position (you know, the type where you're making good coin). Do you think that same person could do a passable job managing a major software company? GMs of sports teams do not do anything particularly mysterious or difficult. It's a job that is tough to succeed in (1 in 30 each year), but failure rate is not necessarily indicative of intellectual difficulty.

What is notable about the description is that you focused on personality traits... not the actual difficulty of the job's actual requirements. Moreover, you actually focused on a bunch of stuff that is more the purview of the coach, but that is another matter.

However, here's the real question, what about a former player's background inherently trains them for managerial positions? 30 years ago, this was less of a problem. In modern sports, it's a big big problem, and that's one of the primary reasons teams have begun to move away from the old boys networks and looking to employee individuals from backgrounds outside the sport and/or with education that you don't get on the playing field.
I will give you this, in a crossover situation I would think that many more managers of corporations would find it easier to run a sports organization than the other way around.

But in either case they would have to have the proper people in the proper positions under them and rely MORE on them than a manager well versed in the field.

I'm not saying that ex-jocks are all suited for GMs... just that those who are have a leg up -- much more than that actually -- on those who have never been a part of the sport... they have to not rely on their underlings as much and are less likely to be bamboozled.

I just believe that you sell sports management much much too short... they deserve more credit than you and some others on here give them... but that is my take, and neither of our takes amount to a hill of beans; they have no effect whatsoever on anything other than forum discussions... We will not change each others minds, and the Flyers don't really give fig what we are debating.

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01-30-2011, 02:10 AM
  #335
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Hatcher is for sure. I think they even listed him as a injured scratch the entire season on the telecasts. Primeau, as said, was back before the information was getting put in the public domain. However, there was a mod here back then (who went on to make the site that is now attached to Hockey Buzz for tracking the cap if I remember right) that had access to the registered contacts, and Primeau was on our LTIR space at least through the season of suck...

And, frankly, Primeau still has PCS... he should have been collecting that money.
With Hatcher I was thinking of the following season... but he may have had his contract end before that. That's why I said I was unsure.

And on Primeau... I was thinking about the later portion of his contract. And I agree he should get paid... and if it had no Cap effect, why bother.

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What you are describing is the very definition of salary cap circumvention. Paying a player to retire to help your cap situation? Don't see why there might be a problem there?
If he was hurt enough to not be able to make a comeback... as he attempted at at least one Camp... he would be able to retire as an injured player who was unable to play NHL hockey... Remember he was not an over 35 player and could have his Cap removed if he retired. A layer is allowed to retire... I don't see that as a Cap Circumvention in any way. It is not a trumped up way for a sucky player or over the hill 35+ player to be moved... and if he was not hurt and could play like he used to do, he would have played; he couldn't and he didn't. He could have retired if he wanted to and I'd wager the NHL would have not said a peep... or at most briefly looked into it and okayed it.

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01-30-2011, 02:34 AM
  #336
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I'm still wondering what the difference between "fine" and "okay" is personally.
In your case, Fine is a extremely small particle possibly located between your ears. And O.K. is I agree with that last statement

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01-30-2011, 02:50 AM
  #337
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hey chief, do i really need a sarcasm smiley? are you that dense. Relax and go do a shot yukon jack
Yes... yes you do. At least it would remove all doubts.

There is so much anti-religion or anti-Catholic sentiments in this day and age, it is only natural IMO to consider a post like that as a serious one... unless an emotion is used.


... And wasn't that you the other day that had another such problem for not using an emoticon? ... Maybe it was some else though.

In any case, please forgive my taking it serious... and please consider emoticons even in the most obvious situations when kidding.

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01-30-2011, 02:56 AM
  #338
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dont f with primeau. My sons name is Primo. That means #1 in Italian. you would have no idea how many people ask me if i named him after the hockey player.

That's funny... My dog's name is Primeau... and people ask me if it means #1.


I kid you not.

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01-30-2011, 12:33 PM
  #339
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If he was hurt enough to not be able to make a comeback... as he attempted at at least one Camp... he would be able to retire as an injured player who was unable to play NHL hockey... Remember he was not an over 35 player and could have his Cap removed if he retired. A layer is allowed to retire... I don't see that as a Cap Circumvention in any way. It is not a trumped up way for a sucky player or over the hill 35+ player to be moved... and if he was not hurt and could play like he used to do, he would have played; he couldn't and he didn't. He could have retired if he wanted to and I'd wager the NHL would have not said a peep... or at most briefly looked into it and okayed it.
If you officially "retire" you void the rest of your contract... meaning, you don't get paid. Sure, he could have retired... but he wouldn't have been paid for his contract. This is true whether you're 35 or 35+, in both cases when a player retires he gives up the rest of his pay. In the 35+ case, that simply doesn't matter from a cap perspective.

If the Flyers turned around and paid him the monetary value of that contract, that would absolutely be cap circumvention.

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01-30-2011, 12:54 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Why would Rathje retire and forfeit money coming to him? If Holmgren did rip him, he'd be a moron.



Yes, GMs need to have management skills. Management skills that a managers have to have in a variety of other industries and positions.

However, lets be real about being the GM of a sports team. Hell, lets just make it the NHL. If I was to airlift one of the posters on this board that is truly clued in (has a solid grasp on the various levels of professional hockey, what players are there, etc.) into a GM position in the NHL, I'd wager they could do a passable job (certainly no worse than what we see from the plethora of guys out there). Importantly, this person would not necessarily have any management experience in that type of workplace, or the connections within the business (which certainly helps).

For the sake of argument, we'll just assume that the person we picked has the mental acumen to be in a management position for a major entity... because it's certainly fair to argue that not everyone is suited for a managerial role.

Now, imagine if I dropped that same person into any other high level management position (you know, the type where you're making good coin). Do you think that same person could do a passable job managing a major software company? GMs of sports teams do not do anything particularly mysterious or difficult. It's a job that is tough to succeed in (1 in 30 each year), but failure rate is not necessarily indicative of intellectual difficulty.

What is notable about the description is that you focused on personality traits... not the actual difficulty of the job's actual requirements. Moreover, you actually focused on a bunch of stuff that is more the purview of the coach, but that is another matter.

However, here's the real question, what about a former player's background inherently trains them for managerial positions? 30 years ago, this was less of a problem. In modern sports, it's a big big problem, and that's one of the primary reasons teams have begun to move away from the old boys networks and looking to employee individuals from backgrounds outside the sport and/or with education that you don't get on the playing field.
Since it's so easy, why don't you go apply for it? Since it isn't about any level of intelligence,capability or competence, or even showing that you have that ability, I'm sure you'll be able to convince them that you're right for the job.

Can we expect a cup within a 3 years, then, of when you take over?

The problem with your statements when you cite sports athletes and such thrust into high-level management is that you are using only what *you* see as their on-ice talents as a measure of their ability to perform the higher up positions.

In reality, you know nothing about what their skills and qualifications actually are. You fail to account for the fact that they grew up around the sport, learned from other managers, are around the game, were inside the locker rooms, understand the inner-workings, perhaps received *direct* education on how to perform such roles from those who do.

All you see is a hockey player and think, "He's just a player! Why would he be a good GM?" A true, and fair statement. Except for the fact that it assumes that he's just a player - which I doubt many are.

And honestly, all you know about what a GM does is purely external as well. I'd wager, actually that every single member on this board, myself included, would be an absolutely horrible GM.

Because I promise you - with the passion we all have for hockey - if we were even remotely competent in getting such a role, we'd all be lining up to fill up GM vacancies every summer if we thought we'd get a shot.

You need to simmer down the arrogance a touch. It's fine to be critical - it's not fine to assume that you can do somebody else's job - a highly difficult one - better than they can, when you know you'll never get that chance to actually prove it - with good reason.

Easy to act high and mighty if you never have to take the hot seat.

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01-30-2011, 01:06 PM
  #341
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You need to simmer down the arrogance a touch. It's fine to be critical - it's not fine to assume that you can do somebody else's job - a highly difficult one - better than they can, when you know you'll never get that chance to actually prove it - with good reason.

Easy to act high and mighty if you never have to take the hot seat.
Someone give this man a cookie. Never have a read a more sensible post on hfboards in my life. Infact the whole post should be posted as a sticky.

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01-30-2011, 01:16 PM
  #342
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Since it's so easy, why don't you go apply for it? Since it isn't about any level of intelligence,capability or competence, or even showing that you have that ability, I'm sure you'll be able to convince them that you're right for the job.

Can we expect a cup within a 3 years, then, of when you take over?

The problem with your statements when you cite sports athletes and such thrust into high-level management is that you are using only what *you* see as their on-ice talents as a measure of their ability to perform the higher up positions.

In reality, you know nothing about what their skills and qualifications actually are. You fail to account for the fact that they grew up around the sport, learned from other managers, are around the game, were inside the locker rooms, understand the inner-workings, perhaps received *direct* education on how to perform such roles from those who do.

All you see is a hockey player and think, "He's just a player! Why would he be a good GM?" A true, and fair statement. Except for the fact that it assumes that he's just a player - which I doubt many are.

And honestly, all you know about what a GM does is purely external as well. I'd wager, actually that every single member on this board, myself included, would be an absolutely horrible GM.

Because I promise you - with the passion we all have for hockey - if we were even remotely competent in getting such a role, we'd all be lining up to fill up GM vacancies every summer if we thought we'd get a shot.

You need to simmer down the arrogance a touch. It's fine to be critical - it's not fine to assume that you can do somebody else's job - a highly difficult one - better than they can, when you know you'll never get that chance to actually prove it - with good reason.

Easy to act high and mighty if you never have to take the hot seat.
Did I say I could do the job well? ****, I wouldn't even want to be the GM of a sports team. I kind of hope my life's work at the end of the day has more meaning than that of constructing sports teams -- fun gig, but at the end of the day no one will really care about your end product.

You should also note that when I talk GMs I don't just talk about them in the NHL. It isn't just hockey players becoming GMs, we have examples of GMs in every other major sport... and in each case, they're basically addressing the same set of problems.

And, no, you couldn't apply to be the GM of the Flyers, because nepotism rules at the Flyers. Which is part of the reason we haven't seen a Cup in 30+ years, IMO.

You should also note that I've never said a player cannot be a good GM... in fact, I've never argued that (I defend Bob Clarke, was he a player?). What I've argued is that being a player, coach, etc. in no way prepares you for the role of being a GM. Therefore, the NHL's hiring practice with regard to GMs reduces to a subset that are not necessarily qualified for the positions to which they aspire, while at the same time cutting out a lot of folks that would be excellent GMs.

And, here's the important point. The other major sports have figured this out. There has been a notable movement over the last 20 odd years in the other major sports (particularly the NFL and MLB) to hire folks from more of a business/analytical background.

At the end of the day... if you think being a GM is complex ****, that's up to you. However, in the grand scheme of jobs that people do in this world, and the problems that people tackle... running a sports team is cake. Everyone on this board has the basic skills to run a sports team in the sports that they watch--thus all the water cooler talk. If you change that job to any other, very very few people have the basic skills to run an organization in any other field that you want to pick.

Sports aren't that complicated. That isn't an arrogant statement, it's respecting how difficult other jobs are that people do on a daily basis.

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01-30-2011, 01:21 PM
  #343
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So ya, about that Matt Walker.... lol

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01-30-2011, 01:34 PM
  #344
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I gotta agree with Jester here. Think about the basic qualifications for a GM. What are they? A knowledge of the game and the players that play it as well as some managerial ability? That description fits probably a lot of people on here.

People like to think highly of the job because it's a very large, very important position in a multi-million dollar business, but it doesn't seem all that complicated. The GM decides what staff to bring in and has to manage the cap (both of which they probably have some extent of help with from other employees). Considering how knowledgeable a lot of the fans on here are and how uncomplicated the salary cap is, I don't see why it's a particularly complex job.

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01-30-2011, 01:39 PM
  #345
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Did I say I could do the job well? ****, I wouldn't even want to be the GM of a sports team. I kind of hope my life's work at the end of the day has more meaning than that of constructing sports teams -- fun gig, but at the end of the day no one will really care about your end product.

Everyone on this board has the basic skills to run a sports team in the sports that they watch--thus all the water cooler talk. If you change that job to any other, very very few people have the basic skills to run an organization in any other field that you want to pick.

Sports aren't that complicated. That isn't an arrogant statement, it's respecting how difficult other jobs are that people do on a daily basis.
1. The end product that you produce is hopefully a cup winning team. Should that be the case, then you will be remembered for ever as the man to put that team together. It matters to a good deal of people

2. You are still being incredibly arrogant. You have no idea how a sports team is run, the tasks and activities a GM must complete in the average day. All of your information is based on outside sources. I bet you would have a very different view should you actually be in the position of GM. We have no idea what tasks these guys have to do every day.

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01-30-2011, 01:51 PM
  #346
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I gotta agree with Jester here. Think about the basic qualifications for a GM. What are they? A knowledge of the game and the players that play it as well as some managerial ability? That description fits probably a lot of people on here.

People like to think highly of the job because it's a very large, very important position in a multi-million dollar business, but it doesn't seem all that complicated. The GM decides what staff to bring in and has to manage the cap (both of which they probably have some extent of help with from other employees). Considering how knowledgeable a lot of the fans on here are and how uncomplicated the salary cap is, I don't see why it's a particularly complex job.
It isn't... especially if you have any familiarity with truly complex stuff, and some of the crap people are doing out there. Sports (and, therefore sports teams) get put on a pedestal because of the emotional attachment that people have in the success and failure of a team. I respect that, and it certainly creates political problems for sports teams... but that doesn't make the job all that difficult in the grand scheme of things from an intellectual perspective.

I do think it's important that a GM work within an organization/league in advance of becoming a GM, because the connections you foster with other teams, agents, scouts, coaches, and players throughout the league has tremendous value to making deals. However, again, that's just a matter of experience within the industry... not some mystical innate ability.

Now, hiring practices in all the sports were traditionally relegated to folks with a lifetime of experience at the one ice level before they transitioned to the front office (Note: I view the job of the coaches as significantly more complex than that of the GM, but also a very different skill set). If you look around, teams do incredibly stupid crap all the damn time. There are reasons for that... because the career path that was adopted for GMs was not a good one for consistently finding people with the acumen for the job they were thrust into.

I think Paul Holmgren is stellar in the scouting and development area. That expertise comes from his background as a player, scout, and coach. Where he has struggled mightily are in the areas outside of that background. Which is why we are seeing a movement in the other leagues to having GMs that come from a business/analytical background and/or apprenticeship. The most famous GM at the moment is, of course, Billy Beane thanks to Moneyball. Billy Beane is a former player... he also spent years working under Sandy Alderson (now the Mets GM), who constructed the really good As teams of the late 80s. Alderson wasn't a "baseball guy." He was a Harvard Law guy that went to work in corporate America... he's the guy that brought in the statistical analysis that Beane was eventually made famous for using, and now pretty much everyone in baseball uses.

It should be noted that the basic concept of Moneyball is incredibly straightforward to anyone with a basic grasp of economics, but was a bomb shell in the baseball world... less than 10 years ago.

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01-30-2011, 01:57 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
1. The end product that you produce is hopefully a cup winning team. Should that be the case, then you will be remembered for ever as the man to put that team together. It matters to a good deal of people
I bet their jobs, kids, parents, etc. matter a whole hell of a lot more... or at least they should. Sports are fun. But at the end of the day, they have no material impact on your life.

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2. You are still being incredibly arrogant. You have no idea how a sports team is run, the tasks and activities a GM must complete in the average day. All of your information is based on outside sources. I bet you would have a very different view should you actually be in the position of GM. We have no idea what tasks these guys have to do every day.
I don't think you understand the word "arrogant" if you think saying one job isn't particularly difficult intellectually, and others are.

We have a very good idea what tasks the GM does on an every day basis. Seriously, sit down and think about it. There's a very limited set of things a GM can possibly do. Hell, go watch 24/7 on HBO. You'll see 'em doing exactly what you'd expect 'em to be doing.

1) Watching practices.
2) Getting reports on players health.
3) Assessing players.
4) Making decisions with regard to the roster. (Pondering potential trades)

And, in other times of the year:

5) Assessing the draft.

On top of all of that, you can throw in paying attention to the rest of the league.

Seriously, the GMs responsibility is to field a sports team. That's it. He isn't constructing a nuclear weapon.

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01-30-2011, 02:06 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
In your case, Fine is a extremely small particle possibly located between your ears. And O.K. is I agree with that last statement
....zinger.

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01-30-2011, 02:15 PM
  #349
Hockeypete49
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I gotta agree with Jester here. Think about the basic qualifications for a GM. What are they? A knowledge of the game and the players that play it as well as some managerial ability? That description fits probably a lot of people on here.

People like to think highly of the job because it's a very large, very important position in a multi-million dollar business, but it doesn't seem all that complicated. The GM decides what staff to bring in and has to manage the cap (both of which they probably have some extent of help with from other employees). Considering how knowledgeable a lot of the fans on here are and how uncomplicated the salary cap is, I don't see why it's a particularly complex job.
Wow I feel honored to be in the presence of you and jester. To say that running a multi million dollar business is easy. Well then my hats are off to you two. With that knowledge you two posses,I would like you two to break down what a GM of a professional hockey team does on a daily basis. Because if it is as easy as you two make it out to be.I would like to send Ed Snider my cover letter and resume. My salary will be nowhere what Ed just extended Paul. I think Mr.Snider is a smarter businessman than you two give him credit for.He did not get where is his by throwing millions of dollars away on a employee who really doe not have a complicated job and that almost anyone could do. I think there is more to the GM's job than you two will ever know. But I may be wrong here. I am guessing you two have spent numerous hours in the cooperate world of a National Hockey League organization. Thanks for your time and if you would get me that detailed job description it would be much appreciated. PS If I land the gig there would be game tickets for you both at the will call office for the balance of the season

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01-30-2011, 02:17 PM
  #350
Spongolium*
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I bet their jobs, kids, parents, etc. matter a whole hell of a lot more... or at least they should. Sports are fun. But at the end of the day, they have no material impact on your life.
You watch 82 games of hockey a year. Not only that, you are up to date on all trades, releveant information in the off season, i bet you don't go 10 days without looking at something related to a sports team that you support. Do you go to a bar to watch the games? talk to people you know about the game?

I'm guessing that hockey is one of your major hobbies. Thats a considerable impact on your life. Would be naive to suggest otherwise. Not only that, do you own any flyers merchandise.

Not sure about you, but when the flyers lose, im in a bad mood the next morning.

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