Ironically that I'm not one sided, and don't just look at offense as important, leads me to believe MPS is the far better all round player atm.
Omark often looks lost in his own zone and the team essentially looks shorthanded with him out there once the puck is turned over.
But I love it when somebody tells me that "If I can't see" something that must mean I'm one sided. Seems kind of a polarized take to be telling me I need to be seeing something a certain way.
Perhaps you'll note that the Omark nation here telling me I'm one sided is a tad ironic.
Even more convincing is the argument that theres "tons more chemistry than ever"
broken record
what is Omark's goal on the ice?
what does the coach want from omark
i think Omark is developing nicely...it would appear that the coaching staff feels the same way...otherwise we would see a consistent drop in icetime...hmm
that just didnt' happen
the oilers haven't been winning a lot of games...but a lot of their players are doing the little things right
funny thing is the players you seem to be pulling for (gagner, and JFJ) haven't been all that consistent, yet you seem to have a problem with Omark who imo has been one of our more consistent players...he hasn't been able to bury it...but i also didn't look at hall as a failure when he couldnt' bury it either...
I think Replecement just dont think chemistry is a valid argument. None of them has produced alot of points and does have -.
I guess thats a valid argument and while you are at it, you can remove any games they been + because that is not everyday that they are and they end up with even more -.
Then we can twist it around even more and more and do advanced calculations etc etc
Who needs to twist anything? Any number you want to look at and Omarks numbers and results are poor.
PP rotation now for awhile, 2.5PPmins/game, good minutes overall, top 6 minutes, and he has 3 goals in 20GP. 9pts. .45ppg.
This would be fine if he wasn't a player getting killed in EV GA. He's been on the ice for 15EV GA in 20 GP!
To put this into perspective Omarks +/-60mins is -1.73 which is as bad as Strudwick territory. Want more perspective? Only 15 NHL players in the entire league are worse at this point.
Omark has yielded twice as many GA than GF while on the ice.
You expect me to consider his offensive contribution and chemistry after that?
Hey maybe he'll improve but overall he's been poor so far.
Your opinion will be OK here though. Few people even bother to consider GA.
i think Omark is developing nicely...it would appear that the coaching staff feels the same way...otherwise we would see a consistent drop in icetime...hmm
that just didnt' happen
the oilers haven't been winning a lot of games...but a lot of their players are doing the little things right
funny thing is the players you seem to be pulling for (gagner, and JFJ) haven't been all that consistent, yet you seem to have a problem with Omark who imo has been one of our more consistent players...he hasn't been able to bury it...but i also didn't look at hall as a failure when he couldnt' bury it either...
There certainly will be a drop in icetime when players come back from injury. Possibly a drop all the way to Oklahoma.
Its interesting that you consider JFJ dirt when he's even on the year, only 4GA all year, and has a hit/game rate that equals Cal Clutterbuck the top hitter in the league.
JFJ also has the same Goals scored with 0 mins PP time and playing with noodles like Smac and Stortini. He's even played less minutes than Omark.
The one quantity we could use more of on this club is goal scoring. Its sad that Omark can't deliver more than a 4th line player that doesn't get any decent setups.
Who needs to twist anything? Any number you want to look at and Omarks numbers and results are poor.
PP rotation now for awhile, 2.5PPmins/game, good minutes overall, top 6 minutes, and he has 3 goals in 20GP. 9pts. .45ppg.
This would be fine if he wasn't a player getting killed in EV GA. He's been on the ice for 15EV GA in 20 GP!
To put this into perspective Omarks +/-60mins is -1.73 which is as bad as Strudwick territory. Want more perspective? Only 15 NHL players in the entire league are worse at this point.
Omark has yielded twice as many GA than GF while on the ice.
You expect me to consider his offensive contribution and chemistry after that?
Hey maybe he'll improve but overall he's been poor so far.
Your opinion will be OK here though. Few people even bother to consider GA.
GA just don't tell the whole story...
anyways it's fine...the oilers themselves have been outscored by a fair margin...omark has been on the ice for a lot of goals, hasn't been a "difference maker" on defense...however he hasn't been making errors which have been the direct cause of goals as much as you seem to imply...
weren't you one of those who was really against jones at the beginning of the year?
WEll its about 50% of the story in any logical sense.
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anyways it's fine...the oilers themselves have been outscored by a fair margin...omark has been on the ice for a lot of goals, hasn't been a "difference maker" on defense...however he hasn't been making errors which have been the direct cause of goals as much as you seem to imply...
I don't have to imply anything. The numbers do it for me at this point. Not sure what you are looking at anyway in determining Omark not to be at fault. Perhaps its not his fault when he coasts and fails to pick up the open man that flips a pass in the net. Perhaps its nothing to do with him when a team hems us in for a minute and scores through attrition while Omark stands there watching the play and the players on the boards being outnumbered.
This is an extremely passive own zone player. I've mentioned its as if we are a man down when he's in own zone. He has virtually no NZ presence. The GA also suggest this.
You think its a complete accident that Omark has more GA than Fraser already despite having played half the EV minutes and not even half the games?
Omark can't so much as even cover a man if he wanted to. JFJ and Fraser can at least handle incoming traffic.
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weren't you one of those who was really against jones at the beginning of the year?
Gives up too much GA as well but makes up for it by actually scoring goals. 11 vs 3. Despite having far less PP/G minutes and less icetime in general and inferior offensive linemates.
Not sure why you bring Jones up with that. Doesn't exactly make Omarks offensive contribution look any good in comparison.
Consider Paajarvi without Omark, and Paajarvi with Omark. Is it any coincidence that he seems to be finding his game playing with Omark? I dont think it is. Now if they could only get rid of Gagner they would be really able to get cookin.
WEll its about 50% of the story in any logical sense.
I don't have to imply anything. The numbers do it for me at this point. Not sure what you are looking at anyway in determining Omark not to be at fault. Perhaps its not his fault when he coasts and fails to pick up the open man that flips a pass in the net. Perhaps its nothing to do with him when a team hems us in for a minute and scores through attrition while Omark stands there watching the play and the players on the boards being outnumbered.
This is an extremely passive own zone player. I've mentioned its as if we are a man down when he's in own zone. He has virtually no NZ presence. The GA also suggest this.
You think its a complete accident that Omark has more GA than Fraser already despite having played half the EV minutes and not even half the games?
Omark can't so much as even cover a man if he wanted to. JFJ and Fraser can at least handle incoming traffic.
Gives up too much GA as well but makes up for it by actually scoring goals. 11 vs 3. Despite having far less PP/G minutes and less icetime in general and inferior offensive linemates.
Not sure why you bring Jones up with that. Doesn't exactly make Omarks offensive contribution look any good in comparison.
You being against Jones shows that numbers (jones previous history) really doesn't show the whole story
anyways i do agree omark really has to start producing, or he'll be sent down (likely will be sent down when eberle is back) but you make some strange comments
you say things like "MPS was fine without Omark. Never noted a problem." in response to people talking about omark and PRV's chemistry or even the fire PRV has show playing with omark...i don't know i just don't know where your coming from
one things for certain the oilers lack of results will call for changes, and Omark is definitely one of the forwards most likely to move...i also agree he needs to get into the dirtier areas....but honestly i've played, watched, and studied hockey...and i know that players like omark thrive when they have the puck...if we really want to see what omark can do...we really need to start winning possession of the puck, and REALLY need to have our defense distribute the puck better...especially on the powerplay
so i don't look like a complete homer, i actually hope omark get's sent down and is told to work on his physical game a bit more...while omark has shown ability to fight it out in the corners...he still get's thrown around too much...
Consider Paajarvi without Omark, and Paajarvi with Omark. Is it any coincidence that he seems to be finding his game playing with Omark? I dont think it is. Now if they could only get rid of Gagner they would be really able to get cookin.
Paajarvi's overall game was better without Omark. He was a plus player on this club all year till he found some Omark love.
Help like this supports you all the way to the AHL.
This line has been crash and burn. Hands down the worst overall line on the club since its inception.
Gagner and Paajarvi both suffering their worse +/- and GA stints of the season playing with Omark.
This line limits defensive responsibility and awareness. Its like it has a one sided function(and doesn't even get that done)
Paajarvi's overall game was better without Omark. He was a plus player on this club all year till he found some Omark love.
Help like this supports you all the way to the AHL.
This line has been crash and burn. Hands down the worst overall line on the club since its inception.
Gagner and Paajarvi both suffering their worse +/- and GA stints of the season playing with Omark.
This line limits defensive responsibility and awareness. Its like it has a one sided function(and doesn't even get that done)
Paajarvi was wandering around the Gobi desert for forty games until Omark came along. I know you know this. Forget about Omark's defensive shortcomings for a minute. Paajarvi has been a different player the last couple of weeks, and it has a lot to do with Omark. Look how comfortable he looks now. More confidence, more willing to engage physically. Its there, and it has been very noticeable.
He was like a rabbit for the first half of the season, scared of his own shadow, and very reluctant to take chances offensively. Now he is driving to the net with much more authority. And its not all on the ice either. Apparently the two are inseparable off the ice too. Omark has been huge for the development of Paajarvi. I bet he doesnt get sent down when Eberle and Hemsky get activated.
You being against Jones shows that numbers (jones previous history) really doesn't show the whole story
anyways i do agree omark really has to start producing, or he'll be sent down (likely will be sent down when eberle is back) but you make some strange comments
you say things like "MPS was fine without Omark. Never noted a problem." in response to people talking about omark and PRV's chemistry or even the fire PRV has show playing with omark...i don't know i just don't know where your coming from
MPS was +3 at one point without Omark and being defensively responsible and working both sides of the ice. How was that a problem? How am I not supposed to view that as a relative competitive plus. Omark has in a short time sunk Paajarvi to the negative side. Without any appreciably significant increase in production to counter the slide.
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one things for certain the oilers lack of results will call for changes, and Omark is definitely one of the forwards most likely to move...i also agree he needs to get into the dirtier areas....but honestly i've played, watched, and studied hockey...and i know that players like omark thrive when they have the puck...if we really want to see what omark can do...we really need to start winning possession of the puck, and REALLY need to have our defense distribute the puck better...especially on the powerplay
Strange that you say this about the D as you will seldom find a team where the D are so absolutely key in the production. Half our goals this year come from D outlet passes. The D are also involved in the production of several more.
The D practically move the offence on this club. If the forwards could produce much of anything on their own and not just on a D produced rush maybe we'd be on to something.
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so i don't look like a complete homer, i actually hope omark get's sent down and is told to work on his physical game a bit more...while omark has shown ability to fight it out in the corners...he still get's thrown around too much...
What he needs to do is quite simple. He has to get his play much close to the net much more often. Its where NHL goals are scored. So many players come into this league thinking they will score like they did in Junior Hockey. Brule still does it regularly. He takes mores shots from areas you can't score from here than anyone I've seen. But guess what, next to Brule Omark takes shots that on average are nearly as distant. This without him having a bonafide NHL shot. Certainly not one that scares NHL goalies.
His whole setup is too peripheral. The closest he usually gets to the net is behind it. But he's not all that effective dishing from there. Also he has no "stuff" or around the net play in his vocabulary. I've not once seen him actually try to generate his own play on net from behind the net. If people know you are passing or holding onto the puck everytime they don't have to worry about you. They just have to cover.
When I see this consistently I think Omark doesn't understand his game as well as people think. Theres a lot of plays that should be there that simply aren't in his playbook.
Paajarvi was wandering around the Gobi desert for forty games until Omark came along. I know you know this. Forget about Omark's defensive shortcomings for a minute. Paajarvi has been a different player the last couple of weeks, and it has a lot to do with Omark. Look how comfortable he looks now. More confidence, more willing to engage physically. Its there, and it has been very noticeable.
He was like a rabbit for the first half of the season, scared of his own shadow, and very reluctant to take chances offensively. Now he is driving to the net with much more authority. And its not all on the ice either. Apparently the two are inseparable off the ice too. Omark has been huge for the development of Paajarvi. I bet he doesnt get sent down when Eberle and Hemsky get activated.
Paajarvi was doing exactly what you were talking about in TC, Exhibition season, and earlier in the season. Remember the 3 goal game? Its not like he's learned anything new here. Lets be frank. Paajarvi got drilled into the boards something awful a few times and his game became more tentative due to that. Which is an adjustment most young players, and particularly most Euros have to learn here. That they will need to take hits that are more punishing than they ever imagined would occur.
Its a shock to any young player. Its also why Hall is handsdown worth more offensively than Paajarvi and Omark put together. Kid has absolutely no fear and no pain threshold. Glenn Anderson on adrenaline. Hall is rarely tentative, usually taking the game by the horns.
I wa never worried about Paajarvi at any point. He didn't need Omark and was fine. It just takes time to adjust to playing against big men in the NHL.
Yeah I know the same applies for Omark but Paajarvi has way more allround hockey sense.
ps Just for clarity MPS reestablished his offensive production starting December 1st, long before he started playing with Omark. Check the Game logs. Its as clear as day.
Last edited by Replacement: 01-29-2011 at 01:48 AM.
Whatever. Every stat bears it out. The Oilers have been losing games because of this line. Its been the worst results line on the club. The GA spells that out. Not sure how you could argue it. We lose most games by around 1 goal. This line loses one goal on every outing all by itself.
Essentially with this line intact we're basically a goal down in every game that the other lines have to make up.
Collectively this line is -15 in 12 GP. You think thats any good? Find one thats been worse in the 12 game stretch.
Do the friggen math.
Last edited by Replacement: 01-29-2011 at 01:42 AM.
Paajarvi was doing exactly what you were talking about in TC, Exhibition season, and earlier in the season. Remember the 3 goal game? Its not like he's learned anything new here. Lets be frank. Paajarvi got drilled into the boards something awful a few times and his game became more tentative due to that. Which is an adjustment most young players, and particularly most Euros have to learn here. That they will need to take hits that are more punishing than they ever imagined would occur.
Its a shock to any young player. Its also why Hall is handsdown worth more offensively than Paajarvi and Omark put together. Kid has absolutely no fear and no pain threshold. Glenn Anderson on adrenaline. Hall is rarely tentative, usually taking the game by the horns.
I wa never worried about Paajarvi at any point. He didn't need Omark and was fine. It just takes time to adjust to playing against big men in the NHL.
Yeah I know the same applies for Omark but Paajarvi has way more allround hockey sense.
Cmon man, he got that hat trick against the Alabama Camel Jockeys. He had a very slow start to his rookie campaign when he had to play against actual nhl players all while getting the proverbial shaft by the coach with substandard line mates and virtually no pp time. Things were not all wine and roses like you are portraying them to be.
Im too tired to go and do a break down of when his points were scored, but I know you watch every game like I do and there is really no need, you can see the newfound confidence in his play. Youve got your boot on the neck of the wrong midget on that line. But you'll come around, sooner or later.
Cmon man, he got that hat trick against the Alabama Camel Jockeys. He had a very slow start to his rookie campaign when he had to play against actual nhl players all while getting the proverbial shaft by the coach with substandard line mates and virtually no pp time. Things were not all wine and roses like you are portraying them to be.
Im too tired to go and do a break down of when his points were scored, but I know you watch every game like I do and there is really no need, you can see the newfound confidence in his play. Youve got your boot on the neck of the wrong midget on that line. But you'll come around, sooner or later.
I've just been looking intently at the game logs. December 1st Paajarvi catches fire. 6pts in 5 games. Omark arrived Dec 10th. The attribution is wrong. It had nothing to do with Omark. Paajarvi ignited his own briquets.
Didn't really have a slow start either. 6pts in his first 9GP when people if you recall were wondering how come Paajarvi was doing so well and Hall couldn't get a break. MPS is a streaky player. He just is.
As for Gagner you can scan through segments for 4 seasons and you won't find one where Gagner has been this sunk. Coincidence?
Its noteworthy if not depressing that Gagner managed to have much more success with Nilsson and Cogs. Strange food for thought. I think he's never encountered a player here so deficient as Omark before. Like an anchor
Last edited by Replacement: 01-29-2011 at 02:07 AM.
Whatever. Every stat bears it out. The Oilers have been losing games because of this line. Its been the worst results line on the club. The GA spells that out. Not sure how you could argue it. We lose most games by around 1 goal. This line loses one goal on every outing all by itself.
Essentially with this line intact we're basically a goal down in every game that the other lines have to make up.
Collectively this line is -15 in 12 GP. You think thats any good? Find one thats been worse in the 12 game stretch.
Do the friggen math.
And yet again, tell me ONE goal against that Omark has been doing a poor job defensivly(again except the two misstakes he did in his first session). Where he by either floating, not taking his D or
even causing a giveaway anything.
There hasnt been one, i know this because i been watching for this like a hawk sense his first session and i really hope he would have learnt from it.
Most goals against that line has been the D freaking up, Gagner is caught down low. Not Omark, Omark has actually been backchecking far more than Gagner has. That he is looking for the rush when they gain possesion in their own zone..
That he is floating when the opposition D havnt entered the zone yet and there is still battle for possetion along the boards is NOT causing any ga.
Now am not saying Omark is doing a great job defensivly, he isnt. Am agreeing with you there. He looks lost at times and he needs to put more preassure on the D much more quicker than he is.
However THIS is not what is causing that line bleeding goals.
What is causing that line to bleed goals is Gagner moving into deep and D not possitioning themself when gagner is caught down low.
Most of their goals against is caused when the opposition team is doing 3on2 or even 2-2 when they get possesion.
Some goals have also been goals you just dont let in as a nhl goalie. You can continue to think that Omark´s poor defensive skill is causing that line to bleed goals you can even go so far as to insult him and say that he is dragging Gagner and MPS down.
But then you are not seing the reality that is Oilers today, what is causing that line to bleed goal is poor defensive. Oilers have a very ****** defense. You can not argue this. One of the worst BP in the leagues. That along with a center that is at this point not ready to play the game he needs to play. He needs to do what a center does in an offensive line. He needs to make sure that he isnt throwing pucks around with no adress in the offensive zone. And when he does he needs to make sure he is ready when the pucks he throws away turns into a breakaway for the opposition.
He also needs to realise that he cant be behind the net, or battle it out down low as much as he used to. When he goes there he needs to make sure that the opposition team isnt having their guys up high.
The line is inbalenced, but its not because of Omark. Its simply because Gagner needs to get more experience playing as a center and learn HIS role. Omark´s role is not to stand in the goal and save every damn shoot that comes to that line. Whatever you might think Omark´s role on that line is to create offense.
NOW here is where you are completly right, unlike you i can actually admit where you have a point. Omark isnt scoring, heck i havnt seen Omark play this one dimensional in a very long time. But i do think this is because he needs to adjust, am quite sure that the coaches have told him to keep things simple.
Dont do anything out of the ordinary, gets puck down deep. Battle it out and throw pucks on the net.
Omark NEEDS to be better offensivly if he is going to stick, i have been very dissepointed with his offensive so far in the nhl.
He needs to skate more, work harder, shoot in better possition. You are completly right there. He has been throwing way to many soft pucks in weak area´s where there isnt much traffic infront of the net. Most of those havnt even made it to the net even.
But, he has been better the last few games. Not great, not the Omark i know is in him. But it is getting better. Hopefully he will continue this and hopefully the whole edmonton oilers as a team can actually get their stuff together. Everything from the goalies to defense to the offense. Its easy to point someone out, just like i pointed Gagner out. But truth of the mather is, gagners shortcoming on that line wouldnt be this brutal if it wasnt for the fact that the oilers defense sucks and looses their guys and loose the 1v1 battles in their own zone.
And the defense shortcomings wouldnt be so brutally obvious if it wasnt for the fact that you have no goalies that never win you games. You never see Dub or Khab make any game winning saves. You never see them step it up or makes saves out of the ordinary.
Everytime the D gets exposed the puck ends up in the net.
Oilers is brutal right now, but hey its a rebuild aint it?
Paajarvi was doing exactly what you were talking about in TC, Exhibition season, and earlier in the season. Remember the 3 goal game?
Are you really going to count exhibition season? You are jooking me right? Should we also put in his SEL season into all of this?
Or why not throw in MPS great wc against norway
You know, i heard Omark had a 5goal game in the ahl. Can we count that aswell? I mean preseason nhl is basicly like a reg ahl game anyway...
When you put two small, defensively lacking forwards on the same line, obviously it's going to bleed goals. Omark's defensive play isn't helping, but it's pretty obvious Gagner is playing a part too.
Gagner's +/- didn't look too bad while he was playing with Penner/Hemsky/Hall/Eberle because he was producing at a 60ish point pace. During that time though, he was also near the top, or leading our team in GA. I know this because I was checking it quite frequently with all the Cogliano threads.
Gagner has been struggling offensively now too, which along with playing with rookies, has made his +/- plummet.
It's pretty clear Gagner is defensive enough to just keep his head above water while playing with much better two-way players, like Penner, but once he's put with players like himself, who need better players to keep them afloat, he starts to sink.
I agree that Omark's two-way play could improve, and it's hurting this team right now. But, it's almost downright ridiculous to say that Omark is 100% to blame for Gagner's struggles.
I like Omark with Pajaarvi, they really find each other out there. I saw them live in Van in december and they looked promising.
I think those two need Horcoff to stabilize that line a bit, much like Eberle and Hall needed him. I'm really confused as to why it hasn't been tried yet. Horcoff might help negate any defensive lapses Omark has and give them a chance to be creative and take some risks.
When you put two small, defensively lacking forwards on the same line, obviously it's going to bleed goals. Omark's defensive play isn't helping, but it's pretty obvious Gagner is playing a part too.
Absolutely. Its a bad redundant combination that magnifies the weakness of each player.
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I agree that Omark's two-way play could improve, and it's hurting this team right now. But, it's almost downright ridiculous to say that Omark is 100% to blame for Gagner's struggles.
But tell me then, because again nobody wants to answer this, why does Gagner look worse playing with Omark than he's looked at anytime in his 4 year career before?
Whats up?
We know Gagner can play better than this in all areas.
It may well be ridiculous to suggest Omark is the cause of Gagners problems but I always thought the mark of a good player is being able to contribute to others play.
Gagner has done this before, often, and even with ordinary players.
Theres no chemistry between Gagner and Omark. I dare say this is the one assignment Gagner would prefer not to have. He's certainly playing like he wants no part of Omark down the road.
When players like playing with each other they play much better than this.
More than meets the eye here. This is not the Gagner I've known.
Are you really going to count exhibition season? You are jooking me right? Should we also put in his SEL season into all of this?
Or why not throw in MPS great wc against norway
You know, i heard Omark had a 5goal game in the ahl. Can we count that aswell? I mean preseason nhl is basicly like a reg ahl game anyway...
Only reason I mentioned it is MPS was doing exactly the same things before. Going wide, using his speed, creating offense off the rush. He did it in the first 9 games of the regular season as well. You selectively missed that part of my post because then you couldn't state the above I guess.
Only reason I mentioned it is MPS was doing exactly the same things before. Going wide, using his speed, creating offense off the rush. He did it in the first 9 games of the regular season as well. You selectively missed that part of my post because then you couldn't state the above I guess.
Offcorse i did. Because its so ridicilus when you in one case bring up exhibit games (his hattrick) while talking about Omark you want to remove one of his games (3points) because he scored to many points and that isnt regular for him.
So its regular for MPS to score hattric? Would you say that creating alot of offense has been a regular trade of MPS this season?
Two month ago most posters on this board was very dissepointed with MPS and some of them wanted to send him down one of the major reasons was that he didnt create anything at all offensivly.
Just you know, you seem to go on a leap to prove one point and use anything you can to prove a point. If you are possitive to a player eg MPS you go way above and beyond to prive you are right (counting exhibit games i mean cmon you are better than this, you know i was going to point that out)
While a player like Omark who you are rather negative towards (even thou you claim you want him to succed) you go so far as to wanting to remove games from him in order to back your negative side up. But there is no need to do that anymore is it?
Yet again, i ask you tell me ONE goal where Omark´s weak defensive game has been the factor of that goal (except the two one he caused in his first session).
We only send you 4th liners vets! No young promising prospects
good one !
Its been nice seeing a bunch of new posters on the board from Europe this season . Brings a different viewpoint to a place that can get stale sometimes . Thanks to all of you who are here contributing .... and props to those of you who are doing so in your second or third language .
Seems kind of a polarized take to be telling me I need to be seeing something a certain way.
good one ! 
