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Messier overrated?

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02-10-2013, 04:54 AM
  #376
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
1.63 against 1.31 is an increase of almost 25%. That's equivalent to a steady at-PPG player hitting 100 points in a random year of his career. It's an insane jump.

It's like saying Yzerman's 1.94 isn't an outlier in his (or anyone's) career.
now that I have more time... I'm curious where you will turn now that your supposed point against Messier crumbles. You are criticizing him for his best season being a massive outlier that's not indicative of his true ability. But no matter how you slice it, this criticism applies to your boy Yzerman even worse!

1st/2nd: Messier 13%, Yzerman 19%
1st/9th: Messier 25%, Yzerman 72%

cut off the "outlier best seasons"

2nd/5th: Messier 4%, Yzerman 16%
2nd/9th: Messier 10%, Yzerman 44%

Quote:
Also, raw PPG is a wonderful stat when you're going to pimp a player who spent their prime in the 80s/early 90s and who played on a good team with good players during their prime.

It gets in the way when you start talking about players who played in the DPE, the O6, etc. and didn't have the benefit of ridiculous scoring across the board because of weak defensive play and goalies who looked like they were plucked from the stands.
Yeah. I know. But I also am experienced enough in this section and in stats, to know that after adjustment Messier would still look just fine.

Here are a couple of examples of this type of analysis done more fairly:

From Hockey Outsider's study:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...975&highlight=

Note that Messier is 11th in top-5 seasons, 12th in top-10 seasons, 7th in top-15 seasons and 9th in top-20 seasons. His overall "score" puts him 9th among post expansion players (which includes Howe, for whatever reason)

Using my own percentage system, which is a bastardization of the more well-known system BM67 uses (comparison to the league's #2 scorer), Messier does very well, and this includes all forwards who played most of their careers in the NHL, not just post-expansion:

Name 100+ 90+ 80+ 70+ total
Howe 7 16 21 22 66
Gretzky 14 16 17 17 64
Yzerman* 4 7 14 17 42
Mikita 6 10 12 13 41
Jagr 7 8 12 13 40
Dionne 6 8 11 15 40
Messier* 3 9 12 16 40
Lemieux 8 9 10 12 39
Hull 7 7 11 12 37
Sakic 3 5 13 15 36
Beliveau 3 8 11 13 35
Esposito 8 8 8 10 34
Richard 4 7 10 11 32
Yzerman 2 5 10 14 31
Oates 3 4 10 13 30
Messier 3 4 9 12 28
Selanne 2 6 9 10 27
Bathgate 2 6 9 10 27
Bossy 2 7 7 10 26
Francis 1 3 8 14 26
Lindsay 4 5 8 8 25
Stewart 2 2 9 12 25
Stastny 4 5 6 9 24
Mahovlich 0 6 8 10 24
Br. Hull 2 2 6 14 24
Hawerchuk 2 4 7 11 24
Morenz 2 4 8 9 23
Lafleur 5 6 6 6 23
Trottier 2 4 7 10 23
Boucher 1 5 7 10 23
Thornton 2 4 6 11 23
Recchi 0 4 9 10 23
Kurri 3 5 6 8 22
Forsberg 3 5 6 8 22
Ullman 2 3 6 11 22
Robitaille 1 3 7 10 21
Ratelle 1 4 6 10 21
Clarke 3 4 4 9 20
Apps 3 4 5 8 20
Ovechkin 4 4 6 6 20
Denneny 1 5 7 7 20
Bucyk 1 2 6 10 19
Sundin 0 1 5 13 19
Turgeon 0 1 8 10 19
Savard 2 3 6 8 19
Gilmour 1 2 5 10 18
Cook 2 4 5 7 18
Conacher 2 5 5 6 18
Cowley 2 4 4 8 18
Bentley 2 5 5 5 17
Kariya 1 4 5 7 17
Modano 0 0 6 10 16
Geoffrion 2 2 4 8 16
Iginla 1 2 6 7 16
Lach 1 3 5 7 16
Blake 1 2 5 8 16
Delvecchio 0 0 6 10 16
Fleury 0 1 5 9 15
Fedorov 1 2 4 8 15
Joliat 1 1 5 8 15
Perreault 0 1 5 9 15
Jackson 2 3 5 5 15
D.Bentley 2 3 3 7 15
Abel 1 3 4 7 15
Roenick 0 2 4 8 14
Crosby 2 4 4 4 14
Malkin 3 3 3 5 14
Schmidt 1 2 4 6 13
Alfredsson 0 2 3 8 13
Tkachuk 0 0 5 8 13
H.Richard 1 3 3 5 12
Shanahan 0 1 4 6 11
Moore 2 2 3 4 11
Weight 0 2 3 6 11
Damphousse 0 0 4 6 10
Kennedy 0 1 2 5 8
Andreychuk 0 0 2 5 7
Brindamour 0 0 2 5 7
Gartner 0 0 1 5 6
Nieuwendyk 0 0 0 6 6
Keon 0 0 1 4 5
Middleton 0 0 1 4 5
Neely 0 0 0 2 2

I included everyone from the original HOH top-100, a few young stars, and everyone who wasn't in the above, that was top-60 all-time in hockey-reference adjusted points.

Messier's "score" of 28 puts him 14th all-time. Clearly he is one of the most dominant point producing forwards of all-time. His 2nd place rank on the all-time scoring list overrates him, but no one with any serious background in historical analysis uses that as a basis for anything anymore.

The "Yzerman*" and "Messier*" are fantasies where they don't miss a single game and continue to produce at the same level. Injuries did affect some of their stronger seasons, and as you can see, it was to a similar degree.

There was also a study in this section that I can't find anymore; it showed how many games a player played at a certain level (top-2, top-5, top-10, etc) so that a player who played 50 games at a level that would have put them 4th in scoring, gets credit for playing 50 games at a top-5 level. I am sure Messier would look great in this study as well. Whoever can find this one, feel free to post it.

Quote:
If we tone it down a bit, say maybe Messier's 129 was an 86 point season, and that PPG is 1.09 instead of 1.63, he's looking at that compared to a PPG of 0.87 (instead of 1.31). That's a pretty darn big increase for one season.
and why would we do that?

Quote:
Using HR's adjusted stats, Messier's top season (89-90) is 108, his next season (95-96) is 95, he hits 93, and then 91 twice. His next highest marks are 87, 85, 80, but he also has 65 in 63, and 77 in 72 as far as PPG seasons go.

By comparison:
Yzerman tops out at 128, 111, 106, and then drops to 97, 92, 91. Following that are 89, 86, 84. He also has 85 in 64 games, and 79 in 75, 75 in 58, 56 in 54, 55 in 52.
I'm all for using adjusted stats that even out the eras as best as they can. But it's well documented that hockey-reference's adjusted stats overrate DPE achievements and underrate the 80s somewhat. Those of us who are heavy into stats find them to be a bit dissatisfying. Anyway, how does that affect what you said? Not much, I imagine. Yzerman has the slightly better offensive peak and keeps up in longevity, so I'd conclude he's a slightly better regular season offensive player. But this thread is about whether Messier's overrated, and considering he's approximately the 15th-most dominant regular season point producing forward of all-time (and his playoff numbers and intangibles don't hurt his cause) then it makes perfect sense that he'd rank approximately 20th-25th on most serious historians' lists.

Quote:
Both players have a noticeable peak offensive season. Messier's is even more noticeable if you use raw numbers instead of adjusted stats. He never approached that level offensively over a full season outside of that season. Not even close.
13% away isn't close? Within 25% eight times isn't close?

edit: for the record, the only guys I can find whose 9th best PPG season are within 25% of their best, are Gordie Howe and Joe Sakic. Marcel Dionne and Stan Mikita came very close.

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03-15-2013, 11:04 PM
  #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
now that I have more time... I'm curious where you will turn now that your supposed point against Messier crumbles. You are criticizing him for his best season being a massive outlier that's not indicative of his true ability. But no matter how you slice it, this criticism applies to your boy Yzerman even worse!

1st/2nd: Messier 13%, Yzerman 19%
1st/9th: Messier 25%, Yzerman 72%

cut off the "outlier best seasons"

2nd/5th: Messier 4%, Yzerman 16%
2nd/9th: Messier 10%, Yzerman 44%
A significant difference is that Yzerman, halfway through his career, changed his playing style dramatically.

Quote:
Yeah. I know. But I also am experienced enough in this section and in stats, to know that after adjustment Messier would still look just fine.

Here are a couple of examples of this type of analysis done more fairly:

From Hockey Outsider's study:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...975&highlight=

Note that Messier is 11th in top-5 seasons, 12th in top-10 seasons, 7th in top-15 seasons and 9th in top-20 seasons. His overall "score" puts him 9th among post expansion players (which includes Howe, for whatever reason)

Using my own percentage system, which is a bastardization of the more well-known system BM67 uses (comparison to the league's #2 scorer), Messier does very well, and this includes all forwards who played most of their careers in the NHL, not just post-expansion:

Name 100+ 90+ 80+ 70+ total
Howe 7 16 21 22 66
Gretzky 14 16 17 17 64
Yzerman* 4 7 14 17 42
Mikita 6 10 12 13 41
Jagr 7 8 12 13 40
Dionne 6 8 11 15 40
Messier* 3 9 12 16 40
Lemieux 8 9 10 12 39
Hull 7 7 11 12 37
Sakic 3 5 13 15 36
Beliveau 3 8 11 13 35
Esposito 8 8 8 10 34
Richard 4 7 10 11 32
Yzerman 2 5 10 14 31
Oates 3 4 10 13 30
Messier 3 4 9 12 28
Selanne 2 6 9 10 27
Bathgate 2 6 9 10 27
Bossy 2 7 7 10 26
Francis 1 3 8 14 26
Lindsay 4 5 8 8 25
Stewart 2 2 9 12 25
Stastny 4 5 6 9 24
Mahovlich 0 6 8 10 24
Br. Hull 2 2 6 14 24
Hawerchuk 2 4 7 11 24
Morenz 2 4 8 9 23
Lafleur 5 6 6 6 23
Trottier 2 4 7 10 23
Boucher 1 5 7 10 23
Thornton 2 4 6 11 23
Recchi 0 4 9 10 23
Kurri 3 5 6 8 22
Forsberg 3 5 6 8 22
Ullman 2 3 6 11 22
Robitaille 1 3 7 10 21
Ratelle 1 4 6 10 21
Clarke 3 4 4 9 20
Apps 3 4 5 8 20
Ovechkin 4 4 6 6 20
Denneny 1 5 7 7 20
Bucyk 1 2 6 10 19
Sundin 0 1 5 13 19
Turgeon 0 1 8 10 19
Savard 2 3 6 8 19
Gilmour 1 2 5 10 18
Cook 2 4 5 7 18
Conacher 2 5 5 6 18
Cowley 2 4 4 8 18
Bentley 2 5 5 5 17
Kariya 1 4 5 7 17
Modano 0 0 6 10 16
Geoffrion 2 2 4 8 16
Iginla 1 2 6 7 16
Lach 1 3 5 7 16
Blake 1 2 5 8 16
Delvecchio 0 0 6 10 16
Fleury 0 1 5 9 15
Fedorov 1 2 4 8 15
Joliat 1 1 5 8 15
Perreault 0 1 5 9 15
Jackson 2 3 5 5 15
D.Bentley 2 3 3 7 15
Abel 1 3 4 7 15
Roenick 0 2 4 8 14
Crosby 2 4 4 4 14
Malkin 3 3 3 5 14
Schmidt 1 2 4 6 13
Alfredsson 0 2 3 8 13
Tkachuk 0 0 5 8 13
H.Richard 1 3 3 5 12
Shanahan 0 1 4 6 11
Moore 2 2 3 4 11
Weight 0 2 3 6 11
Damphousse 0 0 4 6 10
Kennedy 0 1 2 5 8
Andreychuk 0 0 2 5 7
Brindamour 0 0 2 5 7
Gartner 0 0 1 5 6
Nieuwendyk 0 0 0 6 6
Keon 0 0 1 4 5
Middleton 0 0 1 4 5
Neely 0 0 0 2 2

I included everyone from the original HOH top-100, a few young stars, and everyone who wasn't in the above, that was top-60 all-time in hockey-reference adjusted points.

Messier's "score" of 28 puts him 14th all-time. Clearly he is one of the most dominant point producing forwards of all-time. His 2nd place rank on the all-time scoring list overrates him, but no one with any serious background in historical analysis uses that as a basis for anything anymore.

The "Yzerman*" and "Messier*" are fantasies where they don't miss a single game and continue to produce at the same level. Injuries did affect some of their stronger seasons, and as you can see, it was to a similar degree.

There was also a study in this section that I can't find anymore; it showed how many games a player played at a certain level (top-2, top-5, top-10, etc) so that a player who played 50 games at a level that would have put them 4th in scoring, gets credit for playing 50 games at a top-5 level. I am sure Messier would look great in this study as well. Whoever can find this one, feel free to post it.
As I'm sure you noticed, Yzerman is ahead of Messier.

Quote:
I'm all for using adjusted stats that even out the eras as best as they can. But it's well documented that hockey-reference's adjusted stats overrate DPE achievements and underrate the 80s somewhat.
Probably accurate. The depth scoring and offense-from-defense that occurred in the 80s to fluff the GF was not reflected in the scoring leaders in general, so adjusting DPE years might make them look like 1992-93 in comparison.

Quote:
Those of us who are heavy into stats find them to be a bit dissatisfying. Anyway, how does that affect what you said? Not much, I imagine. Yzerman has the slightly better offensive peak and keeps up in longevity, so I'd conclude he's a slightly better regular season offensive player. But this thread is about whether Messier's overrated, and considering he's approximately the 15th-most dominant regular season point producing forward of all-time (and his playoff numbers and intangibles don't hurt his cause) then it makes perfect sense that he'd rank approximately 20th-25th on most serious historians' lists.
Say he's the #15 forward. That should rank him about 30th, not about 20-25. Assuming an even distribution of position players throughout the list, of course.

And although he ranked 22nd IIRC on the most recent HFboards list, he generally is ranked in the top 10 or 15 in most all-time rankings done by the media.

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Old
03-16-2013, 01:33 AM
  #378
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My problem w/ Messier is his greatest regular seasons rank very low on my list of best seasons during that time frame. Very low.

He soaked up Hart votes but I would be hard pressed to place a single one of his seasons in the top 20, or maybe even top 50 during his time. Playoffs, bumps him up a ton. But from '80 - '04 129 pts in 1990 ranks extremely low as a peak.

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03-16-2013, 11:46 AM
  #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
My problem w/ Messier is his greatest regular seasons rank very low on my list of best seasons during that time frame. Very low.

He soaked up Hart votes but I would be hard pressed to place a single one of his seasons in the top 20, or maybe even top 50 during his time. Playoffs, bumps him up a ton. But from '80 - '04 129 pts in 1990 ranks extremely low as a peak.
During his time? I'm not sure how you can keep him out of the Top 50 ALL-TIME; but during his era? How would you justify that?

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03-16-2013, 12:33 PM
  #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
A significant difference is that Yzerman, halfway through his career, changed his playing style dramatically.
That doesn't explain, for example, why the difference between his best and 5th-best season is so large compared to Messier.

Quote:
As I'm sure you noticed, Yzerman is ahead of Messier.
By two points.

Did I not acknowledge this?

Quote:
Say he's the #15 forward. That should rank him about 30th, not about 20-25. Assuming an even distribution of position players throughout the list, of course.

And although he ranked 22nd IIRC on the most recent HFboards list, he generally is ranked in the top 10 or 15 in most all-time rankings done by the media.
Media lists are horrible; try not to pay attention to them and your life will instantly get better.

So if I understand your quibble, it's that Messier should be about 30th (which is at least reasonable), not 22nd? Big deal! All that just over 8 spots?

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03-16-2013, 10:40 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
That doesn't explain, for example, why the difference between his best and 5th-best season is so large compared to Messier.
Well, assuming you are using the total points, there's the "Carson effect" that I have referred to before with regards to 1990-91 and 1991-92 (and the first half of 1992-93). Bryan Murray's attempt to run three scoring lines centered separately by his three best forwards resulted in a team able to put out a scoring line at any given moment, but Yzerman's stats suffered big time. In 1989-90 (before Fedorov), he posted 127 points. After Carson was traded, his scoring pace increased dramatically.

And in 1987-88, Yzerman posted 50-52-102 in 64; which is pace for 63-65-128. Messier's peak season was a direct result of Carson being traded, and no legitimate scoring center being available for the second line (Tikkanen played a lot of center that season, and Messier's ice time increased significantly at ES and on the PP).

But if we take one of 1990-91 or 1991-92 and split the difference between the actual numbers and the 63-65-128 that a full 87-88 and 89-90 average to, we get 57-61-118 in 80GP in 90-91 and 54-61-115 in 79GP in 91-92.

His top seasons would look like this:
65-90-155 in 80 (88-89)
58-79-137 in 84 (92-93)
50-52-102 in 64 (87-88)
62-65-127 in 79 (89-90)
24-58-82 in 58 (93-94)
57-61-118 in 80 (90-91)
54-61-115 in 79 (91-92)

This exercise doesn't change the "best vs. 5th-best" when using PPG, but it makes a difference with points. Obviously, there's no way to no for certain what the offensive impact was; but it's clear that Yzerman's numbers were impacted negatively by Murray's attempt to run three lines centered by Yzerman, Fedorov, and Carson rather than moving either Carson or Fedorov to the wing. Especially given the state of Detroit's forwards at the time.

Quote:
Media lists are horrible; try not to pay attention to them and your life will instantly get better.
I just saw one while looking for something else that had Messier at 18th. That's not terrible, honestly. But then it had things like Forsberg at 44th... and Ciccarelli at 100th.

And the guy actually did research, referencing how the press treated Lalonde as the superior player (over Joe Malone) and it was reflected in Malone's position change, using this to justify ranking Malone below Lalonde. Malone was 33rd... Lalonde was around 20-25 I think.

Quote:
So if I understand your quibble, it's that Messier should be about 30th (which is at least reasonable), not 22nd? Big deal! All that just over 8 spots?
What is the thread topic?

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03-16-2013, 11:17 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Is Messier overrated in terms of all-time greats?

Discuss.


My opinion is that he is a great player but no where the level that some people attribute to him.

Here are the few points that Messier fans use.

"He is the greatest leader in NHL history"

How many times did he lead his team to the playoffs after 1996?

"He is second all-time in scoring"

Would he be had he retired around 2000? When his elite days were over? He was basically just taking up salary space and demanding attention from New York but he did not play at the level that his salary or even his reputation demanded.

"He's the best all-around player NHL history"

Is he really? I can name Howe, Trottier, Mikkita, Beliveau, Clarke that were all more complete and all-around players than him.

"He dominated his peers"

Apart from 2 seasons he was never dominant and wasn't even a top 10 forward most seasons.

"He ended New York's drought"

The media in New York has forever overhyped this accomplishment and it was Leetch that was the most dominant in the playoff run and Messier got lots of help from Graves, Kovalev (who played his best playoff hockey that year), Leetch, Richter, Zubov. However Messier gets all the credit for it but was he as instrumental in that playoff as the media perceived him to be?
Once again we see an all-time great having longevity held against him...In 2000/2001 67 points, 2001/2002 23 points in 41 games, 2002/2003 40 points, and 2003/2004 43 points...Those numbers are still very good numbers for lower end top 6 forwards and he was 40-43 years old.

Aside from his later years he also had 6 100+ point seasons, 3 90 points seasons...He had 16 years where he was a PPG player. 6 cups, a smythe, 2 harts, 2 lindsay. Scoring wise he has the 2nd most shorthanded goals ever so that shows you how good was defensivly.

Looking at all his appearences on top 10 leader boards for each category and season shows you more of how great he was.

IMO he is not overrated in the slightest...Its not as if people think he was the 2nd greatest ever since he has 2nd most points but for me he is easily top 15 and maybe top 10 of all time.

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03-16-2013, 11:56 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by jarmoismyhero View Post
IMO he is not overrated in the slightest...Its not as if people think he was the 2nd greatest ever since he has 2nd most points but for me he is easily top 15 and maybe top 10 of all time.
Easily?

I can understand "arguably". But not "easily".

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03-17-2013, 12:45 AM
  #384
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Easily?

I can understand "arguably". But not "easily".
Arguably is probably a better word for most however for me I personally think he is top 15...Granted this is just my opinion...Some people have him outside the top 30 and that is fine as its just there opinion...The only facts are those that are in the numbers...Everthing else is up to each persons perception...For me the things that put him easily in the top 15 are the points, the amount of times he was listed top 10 in many different categories, and his 6 cups...Its hard to ignore the point totals when he also has a smythe, hart, liindsay combined with the cups.

And granted he did compile some stats latter on in his career but the same can be said for anyone in any sport who is near the top of the points(hits,HR etc).

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04-07-2013, 04:37 PM
  #385
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The point he is making in the post is that Messier is not a highly skilled or offensive player. But he did get two rings without wayne and wayne got none without him.

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04-07-2013, 05:04 PM
  #386
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I think Messier was overrated.

He did not win the Cup single-handedly in '94.
I remember the 1994 playoffs when guys like Leetch and Kovalev looked more impressive than him. Even ol' comrade Nemchinov has been better than Messier in some of the games.

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04-07-2013, 06:16 PM
  #387
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I believe he is very overrated. Especially as a two-way player and as a leader. A real leader, like Yzerman and Bourque, would not do to Vancouver and New York what he did. His two-way play is also no match for many others. Top 30 on a good day.

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04-07-2013, 06:18 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by deenrockit83 View Post
The point he is making in the post is that Messier is not a highly skilled or offensive player. But he did get two rings without wayne and wayne got none without him.
Hockey is a team sport, you know that, right?

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04-07-2013, 08:44 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by deenrockit83 View Post
The point he is making in the post is that Messier is not a highly skilled or offensive player. But he did get two rings without wayne and wayne got none without him.
That's the thing; offense was Messier's #1 attribute. In the regular season he wasn't a huge force on defense. Unless you're arguing that his physical play was his prmary attribute.

In which case the argument is this: A second-tier scorer with decent longevity, one of the longest careers in NHL history (sustained high level of play not included), amazing physical play, and good defense is one of the 10-15 best players ever.

That is an argument that can easily be labeled as insane. It's like arguing in favor of Getzlaf over Crosby because of physical play. Never mind that Crosby is the superior goal-scorer, defender, and most notably playmaker - taking away any advantage from Getzlaf's single "elite-level" skill.

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04-08-2013, 12:03 PM
  #390
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After all the stats presented in this thread, how can you still get off calling Messier a second tier scorer?

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04-08-2013, 06:04 PM
  #391
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There are still people who think Yzerman is close to Messier?

Messier quite easily the superior player and career.

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04-08-2013, 06:20 PM
  #392
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Why is it that all the red wing fans feel the need to degrade Messier.....


Seriously though, at worst he's in the Sakic/Yzerman tier.

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04-08-2013, 06:22 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by Wrath View Post
Why is it that all the red wing fans feel the need to degrade Messier.....


Seriously though, at worst he's in the Sakic/Yzerman tier.
I've definitely noticed that big time Yzerman fans seem to be the ones who are always going out of their way to denigrate Mark Messier.

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04-08-2013, 07:01 PM
  #394
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I think he's way overrated. Much of the praise is based on team stats and intangibles along with being an average player for the latter part of his career, he should have hung them up much sooner. He was a great player, but nowhere near the top 15 imo. I put Jagr way, way ahead of him.

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04-08-2013, 07:22 PM
  #395
saskganesh
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Originally Posted by deenrockit83 View Post
The point he is making in the post is that Messier is not a highly skilled or offensive player. But he did get two rings without wayne and wayne got none without him.
Billy Carroll got 3 cups without Wayne Gretzky and one with him.
Wayne Gretzky got 3 cups without Billy Carroll and one with him.

This does mean they were equal players. It just means they played under different circumstances (different teams).

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04-08-2013, 07:39 PM
  #396
quoipourquoi
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I've definitely noticed that big time Yzerman fans seem to be the ones who are always going out of their way to denigrate Mark Messier.
Just a guess, but it's probably because the two were the third/fourth-best forwards of the era. Quite frankly, I think the more interesting race from the mid-1980s to the beginning of the DPE was between Messier/Bourque/Roy.

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04-08-2013, 08:43 PM
  #397
alkurtz
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The most unique athlete I've ever seen in any team sport. Overated? Been a fan for over 50 years and I've never seen his ilk elsewhere. In a class by himself.

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04-08-2013, 09:09 PM
  #398
Carl Carlson
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Very overrated. He was surrounded by great players on both the Oilers cup winning teams and the NYR cup winner. Granted he's 2nd in points, however a lot of that comes from playing on an amazing Oiler team in the 80's where everyone put up crazy numbers and the fact he played for over 20 years.

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04-08-2013, 09:16 PM
  #399
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deenrockit83 View Post
The point he is making in the post is that Messier is not a highly skilled or offensive player. But he did get two rings without wayne and wayne got none without him.
But he had zero playoff success without Glenn Anderson. The Rangers went nowhere until 94, when they traded Gartner for Anderson. And the next season, Anderson was a St. Louis Blue.

Clearly Glenn Anderson is the best of any of them.

Although Paul Coffey won six Cups on two clubs and went to nine finals on four. Maybe he was the best 80s Oiler?

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04-08-2013, 11:08 PM
  #400
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
But he had zero playoff success without Glenn Anderson. The Rangers went nowhere until 94, when they traded Gartner for Anderson. And the next season, Anderson was a St. Louis Blue.

Clearly Glenn Anderson is the best of any of them.

Although Paul Coffey won six Cups on two clubs and went to nine finals on four. Maybe he was the best 80s Oiler?
four cups... seven finals.

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