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Playoff scoring in the dead puck era

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Old
01-29-2011, 12:57 PM
  #1
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Playoff scoring in the dead puck era

The dead puck era (1996-97 - 2003-04) is obviously known for it's clutching & grabbing/low scoring, and most adjusted playoff stats are not seen as having any value. I've said here before that scoring lowers even more in the playoffs, which I'm sure many here know. Just not sure to the extent people realize how hard it was to put up points in the playoffs in this time period.

Here are the leaders in points per game in the playoffs during the dead puck era:

1. Peter Forsberg - 1.21
2. Jaromir Jagr - 1.21
3. Joe Sakic - 1.04
4. Mike Modano - .94
5. Sergei Fedorov - .91
6. Mats Sundin - .89
7. Doug Weight - .84
8. Steve Yzerman - .84
9. Pierre Turgeon - .83
10. Martin Straka - .81
11. Donald Audette - .80
12. Brett Hull - .77
13. Rod Brind'Amour - .76
14. Patrik Elias - .76
15. Alex Kovalev - .76
16. Gary Roberts - .75
17. Nicklas Lidstrom - .73
18. Al MacInnis - .73
19. Jeremy Roenick - .72
20. Brendan Shanahan - .72
21. Mark Recchi - .71
22. Daniel Alfredsson - .70
23. Petr Sykora - .70

For further details such as games played, total points, etc. see here:http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

I guess my main point here is, a point per game in the playoffs in the dead puck era, isn't quite the same as a point per game in the playoffs in other era's, by more than I thought.

23 players with a .7 points per game or higher in this period.

11 with .8 or higher.

5 with .9 or higher.

Only 3 averaging over a point per game in this period combined.

Thoughts?


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01-29-2011, 01:09 PM
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You couldn't stop Donald Audette, you could only hope to slow him down

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01-29-2011, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
You couldn't stop Donald Audette, you could only hope to slow him down
Seeing his name amongst these guys definitely jumped out at me.

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01-30-2011, 12:00 AM
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seventieslord
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Wow, Sundin 6th.

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01-30-2011, 11:42 AM
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Just for comparison, this is regular season scoring during these years.

 NameGamesPoints per game
1Mario Lemieux 220 1.5
2Jaromir Jagr 586 1.32
3Peter Forsberg 451 1.27
4Joe Sakic 565 1.16
5Ziggy Palffy 523 1.08
6Pavel Bure 419 1.06
7Wayne Gretzky 234 1.06
8Paul Kariya 528 1.06
9Eric Lindros 433 1.06
10Pavol Demitra 494 1
11Mike Modano 600 .99
12Keith Tkachuk 548 .99
13Teemu Selanne 620 .98
14Mats Sundin 639 .98
15Dany Heatley 190 .95
16John LeClair 530 .94
17Doug Weight 567 .94
18Alexei Yashin 534 .94
19Daniel Alfredsson 547 .93
20Jason Allison 453 .92
21Brett Hull 606 .92
22Alexander Mogilny 496 .92
23Theoren Fleury 516 .91
24Pierre Turgeon 543 .91
25Steve Yzerman 511 .91
26Ilya Kovalchuk 227 .9
27Mark Recchi 627 .9

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

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01-30-2011, 04:54 PM
  #6
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Audette? Whoa. That guy flew under my radar.

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01-30-2011, 07:33 PM
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Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matnor View Post
Just for comparison, this is regular season scoring during these years.

 NameGamesPoints per game
1Mario Lemieux 220 1.5
2Jaromir Jagr 586 1.32
3Peter Forsberg 451 1.27
4Joe Sakic 565 1.16
5Ziggy Palffy 523 1.08
6Pavel Bure 419 1.06
7Wayne Gretzky 234 1.06
8Paul Kariya 528 1.06
9Eric Lindros 433 1.06
10Pavol Demitra 494 1
11Mike Modano 600 .99
12Keith Tkachuk 548 .99
13Teemu Selanne 620 .98
14Mats Sundin 639 .98
15Dany Heatley 190 .95
16John LeClair 530 .94
17Doug Weight 567 .94
18Alexei Yashin 534 .94
19Daniel Alfredsson 547 .93
20Jason Allison 453 .92
21Brett Hull 606 .92
22Alexander Mogilny 496 .92
23Theoren Fleury 516 .91
24Pierre Turgeon 543 .91
25Steve Yzerman 511 .91
26Ilya Kovalchuk 227 .9
27Mark Recchi 627 .9

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game
Lemiuex was an even 1.0 in the playoffs in his 2 years in the era.
went 5-3-36 in 97 and 18-6-11-17 in 01.

but the overall point is well taken in that it was extremely hard to score in the playoffs (and regular season for that matter) during this time period.

To me Foppa was the best player in the dead puck era when everything is considered.

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01-31-2011, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
You couldn't stop Donald Audette, you could only hope to slow him down
He, Koivu and Zednik pretty much scored at will against the Bruins in the 02 playoffs.

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01-31-2011, 05:39 PM
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Wow, Sundin 6th.
Not surprising.

He carried the Leafs most of his time there.

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01-31-2011, 06:38 PM
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The same thing from 81-88 http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

One thing that really jumped out at me there, was no one in the top 100 with a +/- higher than 15, other than Edmonton Players (of which there are 6) and Mark Howe who all have +30 or higher, and +40 or higher for 5 of the Edmonton players.

89-96 http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

06-10 http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

Changed required games played to 25 for this period instead of 40, to keep an average of 5 games per year.

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01-31-2011, 06:49 PM
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Wayne Gretzky - 2.13. He was pretty good, did you guys know that?

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01-31-2011, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Wow, Sundin 6th.
I'm a Leaf fan, so maybe I;m biased, but I'm writing this post anyways

I honestly do think Sundin is a tad underrated on these boards (apart from the Leaf board). Since Crosby had that amazing streak quite recently, we've been exposed numerous time (on HF or TV) with that list of highest point streaks. Aside from Gretzky and Lemieux (arguably the two BEST players ever), Sundin is the highest on that list. Sure the year he did in was sorta a freak offensive season league-wide, and while that might diminish the streak somewhat, at the same time, if it were so easy that "someone like Sundin" could do it, why didn't anyone else that year?

But fine, you look at the list and you kind of just brush it off like "yeah that's cool, but this is just one random thing Sundin was on and doesn't mean much taken by itself". And I thought the same thing myself at the time. Then I kept noticing these random lists on TV (when I'm watching CBC and stuff) that kept having Sundin on it. Stuff like most career GWG, which I believe Sundin was 7th or 8th all time with almost 100 GWG's. I saw that on TV and they mentioned the stat was kept starting the early 60's (so it doesn;t really exclude players you think should be on it but arent). Another list was the career overtime goals, which he is tied for 1st (though I think most know about this one). And now I go on HFboards and see the list in this thread that has Mats Sundin on it. Also, I'm 99% sure there was some other list that CBC had on a week or two ago that had Sundin on it, I just can't remember what it was.

But anyways, the point is that when you look at the big picture and see how highly Sundin is ranked on a bunch of these random-type stats/records, you get a better sense of how great he was because you HAVE to be great to be included in all these things. As well, I do think the fact that he was the 1st euro player to be chosen 1st overall AS WELL as the captain of the largest hockey market in the world (or very close to) for over a decade...I think that says alot about Sundin given his high level of play consistently year after the year. The reason I mention this is because living near Toronto and able to witness such tremendous pressure from the media, as well as recently watching the show Playmakers (by espn, good show btw), it really does seem to me that a player would have a harder time focusing and performing with such great pressure and scrutiny compared to playing on a smaller market team (aka. most other teams, if not, every other team). So hats off to Sundin in that regard. And although the linemate argument has been done numerous times before, I think people say it because it does hold some weight. Or you could put it another way, take a player you think is as good or better then Sundin, and put that player in Sundin's situation of being captain of such a hotbed market, as well as having both constantly revolving and relatively bad 1st line players (relative to other team's 1st liners) most years, and try to think of how well they would've done. Not all of them would've done worse, but I do think a great number (the majority) would've done slightly worse.

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01-31-2011, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by KewlBum View Post
I'm a Leaf fan, so maybe I;m biased, but I'm writing this post anyways

I honestly do think Sundin is a tad underrated on these boards (apart from the Leaf board). Since Crosby had that amazing streak quite recently, we've been exposed numerous time (on HF or TV) with that list of highest point streaks. Aside from Gretzky and Lemieux (arguably the two BEST players ever), Sundin is the highest on that list. Sure the year he did in was sorta a freak offensive season league-wide, and while that might diminish the streak somewhat, at the same time, if it were so easy that "someone like Sundin" could do it, why didn't anyone else that year?

But fine, you look at the list and you kind of just brush it off like "yeah that's cool, but this is just one random thing Sundin was on and doesn't mean much taken by itself". And I thought the same thing myself at the time. Then I kept noticing these random lists on TV (when I'm watching CBC and stuff) that kept having Sundin on it. Stuff like most career GWG, which I believe Sundin was 7th or 8th all time with almost 100 GWG's. I saw that on TV and they mentioned the stat was kept starting the early 60's (so it doesn;t really exclude players you think should be on it but arent). Another list was the career overtime goals, which he is tied for 1st (though I think most know about this one). And now I go on HFboards and see the list in this thread that has Mats Sundin on it. Also, I'm 99% sure there was some other list that CBC had on a week or two ago that had Sundin on it, I just can't remember what it was.

But anyways, the point is that when you look at the big picture and see how highly Sundin is ranked on a bunch of these random-type stats/records, you get a better sense of how great he was because you HAVE to be great to be included in all these things. As well, I do think the fact that he was the 1st euro player to be chosen 1st overall AS WELL as the captain of the largest hockey market in the world (or very close to) for over a decade...I think that says alot about Sundin given his high level of play consistently year after the year. The reason I mention this is because living near Toronto and able to witness such tremendous pressure from the media, as well as recently watching the show Playmakers (by espn, good show btw), it really does seem to me that a player would have a harder time focusing and performing with such great pressure and scrutiny compared to playing on a smaller market team (aka. most other teams, if not, every other team). So hats off to Sundin in that regard. And although the linemate argument has been done numerous times before, I think people say it because it does hold some weight. Or you could put it another way, take a player you think is as good or better then Sundin, and put that player in Sundin's situation of being captain of such a hotbed market, as well as having both constantly revolving and relatively bad 1st line players (relative to other team's 1st liners) most years, and try to think of how well they would've done. Not all of them would've done worse, but I do think a great number (the majority) would've done slightly worse.
I personally couldn't agree more with everything here. I tend to think a lot of dead puck era players in general are a fair bit underrated. Forsberg being the obvious one for me, Sundin next, then Modano and Palffy.

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01-31-2011, 08:11 PM
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Sundin also played significantly more games in the deadpuck era than most players on the regular season list, making him actually the 3rd most productive player during the era, behind only Jagr and Sakic.

If he was more lucky and found himself playing during the 80s with a stretch like that he would be considered a shoe-in for the Hall of Fame.

I'd say he is generally underrated as far as career accomplishments go, but rightfully not considered as having an elite peak like many of the greats.

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01-31-2011, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Sundin also played significantly more games in the deadpuck era than most players on the regular season list, making him actually the 3rd most productive player during the era, behind only Jagr and Sakic.

If he was more lucky and found himself playing during the 80s with a stretch like that he would be considered a shoe-in for the Hall of Fame.

I'd say he is generally underrated as far as career accomplishments go, but rightfully not considered as having an elite peak like many of the greats.
His peak was not as high as some others but he had 5 straight seasons of between 76 and 97 points (in adjusted terms) which is pretty darn good any way you slice it.

His lack of 100 point season in adusted terms does hurt him in the end though and shows up in his small (2) times in top 10 in scoring.

But at the end of the day I think he is underated especially considering his excellent international career as well.

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02-01-2011, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
The dead puck era (1996-97 - 2003-04) is obviously known for it's clutching & grabbing/low scoring, and most adjusted playoff stats are not seen as having any value. I've said here before that scoring lowers even more in the playoffs, which I'm sure many here know. Just not sure to the extent people realize how hard it was to put up points in the playoffs in this time period.

Here are the leaders in points per game in the playoffs during the dead puck era:

1. Peter Forsberg - 1.21
2. Jaromir Jagr - 1.21
3. Joe Sakic - 1.04
4. Mike Modano - .94
5. Sergei Fedorov - .91
6. Mats Sundin - .89
7. Doug Weight - .84
8. Steve Yzerman - .84
9. Pierre Turgeon - .83
10. Martin Straka - .81
11. Donald Audette - .80
12. Brett Hull - .77
13. Rod Brind'Amour - .76
14. Patrik Elias - .76
15. Alex Kovalev - .76
16. Gary Roberts - .75
17. Nicklas Lidstrom - .73
18. Al MacInnis - .73
19. Jeremy Roenick - .72
20. Brendan Shanahan - .72
21. Mark Recchi - .71
22. Daniel Alfredsson - .70
23. Petr Sykora - .70

For further details such as games played, total points, etc. see here:http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

I guess my main point here is, a point per game in the playoffs in the dead puck era, isn't quite the same as a point per game in the playoffs in other era's, by more than I thought.

23 players with a .7 points per game or higher in this period.

11 with .8 or higher.

5 with .9 or higher.

Only 3 averaging over a point per game in this period combined.

Thoughts?
Good to see my man being tied for first. Apparently he did not bring it in the playoffs!!!

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02-01-2011, 10:36 AM
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I'm not shocked by the results of this really.
What i do find interesting is the splitof playoff games in the top 10. Obviously a player who plays twice as many games has a greater potential to have less PPG totals.

Having said that, doing a bit of a comparison, outside of the obvious Oilers players and a few others, the difference in era wasn't drastic between say Gretzky's and the "Dead Puck".

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02-01-2011, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by pirate94 View Post
I'm not shocked by the results of this really.
What i do find interesting is the splitof playoff games in the top 10. Obviously a player who plays twice as many games has a greater potential to have less PPG totals.

Having said that, doing a bit of a comparison, outside of the obvious Oilers players and a few others, the difference in era wasn't drastic between say Gretzky's and the "Dead Puck".
Oh it most definitely was, are you looking at the same numbers?

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02-01-2011, 10:56 AM
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Oh it most definitely was, are you looking at the same numbers?
I'm pretty sure i was. I believe i did a search form 80-90. with the exception of the obvious Oilers players it was similar fro the result i saw.

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02-01-2011, 11:21 AM
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I'm pretty sure i was. I believe i did a search form 80-90. with the exception of the obvious Oilers players it was similar fro the result i saw.
what on earth are you looking at?

THREE players averaged a point per game in this time! That is not like the 80s at all.

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02-01-2011, 12:00 PM
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what on earth are you looking at?

THREE players averaged a point per game in this time! That is not like the 80s at all.
Of course.
I was looking at the 80s versus the dead puck era and about the same number of players were scoring 1.0 PPG or better in the 80s as players were scoring at .80 PPG during the deadpuck era (about 40-45). However, about 12 of them in the DP era were euros while only 3 or 4 were in the NHL at the time during the 80s... There were more teams in the DP era, but not enough to close the gap.

Teams were definitely deeper in the DP era than in the 80s, but I don't think it is a monstrous difference (such as comparing to the truly watered-down 70s).... as a somewhat blind stab, I would say the Top 50 players in the DP era would be similar to the Top 35-40 players in the 80s. Scoring Top 15 in the DP era Would probably sneak you into Top 10 in the 80s, but very little difference in the Top 5.

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02-01-2011, 12:36 PM
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seventieslord
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Teams were definitely deeper in the DP era than in the 80s, but I don't think it is a monstrous difference (such as comparing to the truly watered-down 70s).... as a somewhat blind stab, I would say the Top 50 players in the DP era would be similar to the Top 35-40 players in the 80s. Scoring Top 15 in the DP era Would probably sneak you into Top 10 in the 80s, but very little difference in the Top 5.
That is about what I think too/

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