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Old
01-31-2011, 01:27 PM
  #76
phlocky
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Tp B;ues fans wanting to get a young PROVEN goal scorer (ie - NOT struggling) for a STRUGGLING EJ you are seriously kidding yourselves. There is no way in hell any real GM would trade someone who is actually proving that they are a 1st line forward for a former 1st OA struggling dman who is looking more like a bust than a franchise dman. I FULLY understand that he's just 22 YO, that dmen take longer to develope, and that even is he's a "bust" he'll still be a very good 2nd pairing or coplimentary 1st pairing dman. However, YOU have to understand that right now, at his CURRENT level of play and his CURRENT value, he is NOT worth a PROVEN young goal scorer. What you are basically discribing is that you fully EXPECT to get someone like Giroux from the Flyers for EJ and that's just laughable. Sorry but you'd have no chance in hell of landing Giroux for EJ. I know that nobody here has named Giroux specifically but what you are discribing you EXPECT to get and what you are turning down leads one to only conclude that this IS the type of player you EXPECT to get in return. You are seriously delusional.


TBH, I'm not sure that the Flyers management would even trade JVR straight up for EJ. JVR has been brought along slowly here and he's done EVERYTHING that has been expected of him. We are very happy with him right now and he shows real promiss. He is very soon going to be our #1 LW. He plays well in all 3 zones, he won our teams fastest skater and I thikn our hardest shot competitions. He's a good playmaker, passer and finisher. He's ELITE at none of them but very good at all. Personally, I WOULD trade JVR for EJ but I doubt ourowner and GM would do it. JVR looks to be the safer and more sure thing RIGHT NOW but EJ has more of a potential to become a franchise player than JVR does IMO. I know that Blues fans balk at this but it is what is "fair" at this point in time.

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01-31-2011, 01:38 PM
  #77
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Also, to the person who offered Horton, Colbourn and Tor 2011 1st for EJ, you are crazy. There is no way in hell that boston even trades the Tor 1st for EJ straight up. Sorry but they hang up the phone. That 1st looks to be a lottery pick (probably top 2 or 3). With it the Bruins can select a player whom they fully EXPECT when they draft him to become a future franchise player for them. EJ is struggling and right now looks like anything BUT a future franchise player. It just wouldn't happen.

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01-31-2011, 01:40 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Whites Eye View Post
how about Parise for Johnson and your first? too much?

i saw a blues fan offer Johnson, Berglund, and your first a few posts back so i was wondering what the general consensus amongst blues fans is
Pass. That first round pick is currently the 7th overall pick and it may rise even more if we lose EJ and get back a player that is out until the final few games of the year. We could get a great forward prospect that is close to the NHL with that pick.

I'd think about EJ and a 2012 1st for Parise.

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01-31-2011, 01:41 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
LOL.
+- is a great way to evaluate trade value... You realize EJ has been struggling too right? And has a serious injury history? Be somewhat realistic here, that kind of package is what you can expect, whether it's from the Sharks or another team. That is IF the Blues are actually considering trading EJ, which I doubt.
I am not bashing Pavelski at all, but I'm just saying to have a -14 on a playoff team and be considered a 2-way forward is not a great thing to have. I love Pavelski as a player, but I would not trade Johnson for him.

To everyone who is making offers for Johnson, remember the Blues gave up Shanahan for Pronger. Look at Pronger's stats to Johnson's, at the same age they are very similar. Johnson is developing the same as Pronger and remember Blues fans watched Pronger develop. Johnson isn't as "mean" as Pronger, but he will be very similar to him.

If anyone wants Johnson we are looking for overpayment. The Blues are not shopping Johnson, but are willing to listen to offers. A realistic deal that could work is Johnson for Tavares. Two former #1 picks with huge potential, but aren't living up to the #1 pick hype. Both are still really good players, who are still playing good, but could realistically be traded.

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01-31-2011, 01:43 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
Drop Hemsky and Drouin-Deslauriers, and add Smid and a second-round pick instead, and I'd take that if the Boston offer didn't come through...
Glad for us you're not our GM.

Edit: Not.


Last edited by Basikk: 01-31-2011 at 02:02 PM.
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01-31-2011, 01:50 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I am not bashing Pavelski at all, but I'm just saying to have a -14 on a playoff team and be considered a 2-way forward is not a great thing to have. I love Pavelski as a player, but I would not trade Johnson for him.

To everyone who is making offers for Johnson, remember the Blues gave up Shanahan for Pronger. Look at Pronger's stats to Johnson's, at the same age they are very similar. Johnson is developing the same as Pronger and remember Blues fans watched Pronger develop. Johnson isn't as "mean" as Pronger, but he will be very similar to him.

If anyone wants Johnson we are looking for overpayment. The Blues are not shopping Johnson, but are willing to listen to offers. A realistic deal that could work is Johnson for Tavares. Two former #1 picks with huge potential, but aren't living up to the #1 pick hype. Both are still really good players, who are still playing good, but could realistically be traded.
You are dreaming, sorry. He is nothing like Pronger, and I am confident he will never even get close. He's a good player, and he'll get better, but comparing him to Pronger is reaching. He will garner a decent return, he still has a lot of value, but getting a Hall or Tavares is not going to happen. Similarly, if you asked for Couture, we wouldn't even think about it.

Also, as of right now, the Sharks are NOT a playoff team. We have been god awful defensively, and the entire teams +- is terrible. We are a negative goal differential as a team. Pav's has been one of the better players, but he's been bounced around so much (from center to wing, from 1st line to 3rd line) in an attempt to improve the lines that he's really struggled to produce. He's also been put on lines with defensively inept partners and expected to cover for their deficiencies on his own.

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01-31-2011, 01:50 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Tp B;ues fans wanting to get a young PROVEN goal scorer (ie - NOT struggling) for a STRUGGLING EJ you are seriously kidding yourselves. There is no way in hell any real GM would trade someone who is actually proving that they are a 1st line forward for a former 1st OA struggling dman who is looking more like a bust than a franchise dman. I FULLY understand that he's just 22 YO, that dmen take longer to develope, and that even is he's a "bust" he'll still be a very good 2nd pairing or coplimentary 1st pairing dman. However, YOU have to understand that right now, at his CURRENT level of play and his CURRENT value, he is NOT worth a PROVEN young goal scorer. What you are basically discribing is that you fully EXPECT to get someone like Giroux from the Flyers for EJ and that's just laughable. Sorry but you'd have no chance in hell of landing Giroux for EJ. I know that nobody here has named Giroux specifically but what you are discribing you EXPECT to get and what you are turning down leads one to only conclude that this IS the type of player you EXPECT to get in return. You are seriously delusional.


TBH, I'm not sure that the Flyers management would even trade JVR straight up for EJ. JVR has been brought along slowly here and he's done EVERYTHING that has been expected of him. We are very happy with him right now and he shows real promiss. He is very soon going to be our #1 LW. He plays well in all 3 zones, he won our teams fastest skater and I thikn our hardest shot competitions. He's a good playmaker, passer and finisher. He's ELITE at none of them but very good at all. Personally, I WOULD trade JVR for EJ but I doubt ourowner and GM would do it. JVR looks to be the safer and more sure thing RIGHT NOW but EJ has more of a potential to become a franchise player than JVR does IMO. I know that Blues fans balk at this but it is what is "fair" at this point in time.
EJ is not struggling he's just not one of the top defenseman in the league yet as a 1st overall pick those are his expectations. EJ is a top pairing Defenseman at 22 so why shouldn't he return a young top 6 forward with potential to be better.

You also understand Giroux is just finally having a breakout season as a forward when EJ plays a position that normally takes longer for a player to develop at. Giroux plays on a much better team then EJ also. EJ points are down because his team is struggling to score.

You comparing saying JVR is more of a sure thing is just trolling. EJ is a better player currently then JVR by quite a bit with potential to be even more so if they both reach their full potential.

EJ is considered to be struggling because he has a lot higher expectations. Doughty's and Stamko's season's last year even increased people's expectation's of EJ more. Doughty last season was one of the best defenseman in the whole league. Stamkos was one of the best forwards in the whole league. EJ currently is a very good defenseman a top pairing on a majority of teams in the NHL. But he is not a top 5 play at his position yet so he is considered to be struggling.

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01-31-2011, 01:52 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Also, to the person who offered Horton, Colbourn and Tor 2011 1st for EJ, you are crazy. There is no way in hell that boston even trades the Tor 1st for EJ straight up. Sorry but they hang up the phone. That 1st looks to be a lottery pick (probably top 2 or 3). With it the Bruins can select a player whom they fully EXPECT when they draft him to become a future franchise player for them. EJ is struggling and right now looks like anything BUT a future franchise player. It just wouldn't happen.
Please stop trolling all Johnson threads because you want him on your team but are only willing to give up scraps to get him.

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01-31-2011, 01:54 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
You are dreaming, sorry. He is nothing like Pronger, and I am confident he will never even get close. He's a good player, and he'll get better, but comparing him to Pronger is reaching. He will garner a decent return, he still has a lot of value, but getting a Hall or Tavares is not going to happen. Similarly, if you asked for Couture, we wouldn't even think about it.

Also, as of right now, the Sharks are NOT a playoff team. We have been god awful defensively, and the entire teams +- is terrible. We are a negative goal differential as a team. Pav's has been one of the better players, but he's been bounced around so much (from center to wing, from 1st line to 3rd line) in an attempt to improve the lines that he's really struggled to produce. He's also been put on lines with defensively inept partners and expected to cover for their deficiencies on his own.
Other teams fans seem to forget Blues fans saw a young Pronger develop. To be honest EJ is better then Pronger was at the current point of EJ's career compared to Pronger's.

As a Blues fan that has watched on average over 60-70 games a season since 93 or so. I think I have seen more of a young Pronger and EJ to compare them then most people who says it's not even close.

Pronger's first 5 seasons
1993-1994 WHALERS 81 5 25 30 -3 113 2 0 0 174 2.9
1994-1995 WHALERS 43 5 9 14 -12 54 3 0 1 94 5.3
1995-1996 BLUES 78 7 18 25 -18 110 3 1 1 138 5.1
1996-1997 BLUES 79 11 24 35 15 143 4 0 0 147 7.5
1996-1997 CANADA-WC-A 9 0 2 2 12
1997-1998 BLUES 81 9 27 36 47 180 1 0 2 145 6.2

EJ's first 2 1/2 seasons
2007-2008 BLUES 69 5 28 33 -9 28 4 0 3 105 4.8
2007-2008 PEORIA RIVERMEN-AHL 1 0 0 0 1 2 0 0
2009-2010 BLUES 79 10 29 39 1 79 6 0 2 186 5.4
2009-2010 UNITED STATES-OLYMPICS 6 1 0 1 4
2010-2011 BLUES 48 5 12 17 -6 37 1 1 2 96 5.2

Also Pronger struggled defensively at times with inconsistent play. Pronger also had a hall of fame defenseman to play with in St Louis. People who actually have seen both players play at similar ages can see how close they really are at that stage in their careers.


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01-31-2011, 01:56 PM
  #85
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I love how everyone who doesn't watch Blues games says that Johnson is underperforming and playing bad and is basically worthless in a trade. He will NOT be traded and once again the only probably realistic trade that could happen would be Tavares for Johnson.

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01-31-2011, 01:57 PM
  #86
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Why would the Bruins trade a top 3 pick( Larson, RNH, Landeskog, Coutier) Horton who is a young 25 year old who is on pace for 50 points this year, and also Cobourne who is going to be a top 6 Center in the NHL in a couple years. There is no way the B's would do this

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01-31-2011, 01:58 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I am not bashing Pavelski at all, but I'm just saying to have a -14 on a playoff team and be considered a 2-way forward is not a great thing to have. I love Pavelski as a player, but I would not trade Johnson for him.

To everyone who is making offers for Johnson, remember the Blues gave up Shanahan for Pronger. Look at Pronger's stats to Johnson's, at the same age they are very similar. Johnson is developing the same as Pronger and remember Blues fans watched Pronger develop. Johnson isn't as "mean" as Pronger, but he will be very similar to him.

If anyone wants Johnson we are looking for overpayment. The Blues are not shopping Johnson, but are willing to listen to offers. A realistic deal that could work is Johnson for Tavares. Two former #1 picks with huge potential, but aren't living up to the #1 pick hype. Both are still really good players, who are still playing good, but could realistically be traded.
HOLY DELUSIONAL BLUES FAN BATMAN!!!! Lol, there is no way in hell that even EJ + you 2011 1st could get you JT. I hope you are kidding when you say that this is "realistic" in value.

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01-31-2011, 02:10 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
HOLY DELUSIONAL BLUES FAN BATMAN!!!! Lol, there is no way in hell that even EJ + you 2011 1st could get you JT. I hope you are kidding when you say that this is "realistic" in value.
It's all about what their GM thinks not some self righteous hockey nerd who regurgitates paragraphs about how low EJ's value is like he's a freaking used car. If you don't want a potential franchise d-man because he isn't one already... great, we're not throwing him away.

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01-31-2011, 02:12 PM
  #89
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Do StL fans consider him a bust?

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01-31-2011, 02:12 PM
  #90
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Do StL fans consider him a bust?
No they consider him a 22 year old who missed a year of pro development with knee surgery.

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01-31-2011, 02:13 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I love how everyone who doesn't watch Blues games says that Johnson is underperforming and playing bad and is basically worthless in a trade. He will NOT be traded and once again the only probably realistic trade that could happen would be Tavares for Johnson.
Hyperbole. No one is saying he is worthless. In fact most everyone is saying he has a lot of value.

If someone were to start this same thread, in the same situation, for Drew Doughty, do you think anyone would be scoffing at these kinds of proposals? Absolutely not. Doughty is worth more than Tavares, more than Couture, more than Hall, and no one would (reasonable anyway) would scoff at including them in the discussion. If Doughty were available, I would drive Couture to the airport, and anyone else they wanted.

Johnson simply is not, right now, in that league. Performance means a lot more than potential and until Johnson put's together a season like Doughty's last season they are simply not of similar value. Just as Prongers value improved as his play improved, so will EJ's. It's like saying "I am pretty sure that stock is going to be worth more next year, so you should pay that price now", that is not how it works.

I know your going to say "then why are Couture and Hall and Skinner etc worth more if they haven't performed yet" and the answer is simply because they are rookies. Because there is no performance (at this level) to look at, their value is solely in potential coupled with ELC contracts. EJ has been in the league awhile now, and has yet to perform up to potential. The longer that goes on, the more his value will continue to drop. It's similar to speculation on an IPO stock. It's a low risk high reward move.

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01-31-2011, 02:17 PM
  #92
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Also, to the person who offered Horton, Colbourn and Tor 2011 1st for EJ, you are crazy. There is no way in hell that boston even trades the Tor 1st for EJ straight up. Sorry but they hang up the phone. That 1st looks to be a lottery pick (probably top 2 or 3). With it the Bruins can select a player whom they fully EXPECT when they draft him to become a future franchise player for them. EJ is struggling and right now looks like anything BUT a future franchise player. It just wouldn't happen.
Could you be in more denial about the guarantee that someone drafted this year has any better chance of becoming a franchise player than someone 3 years into their pro game? If EJ was on a winning team right now no one would be this harsh on him. You're blowing things so far out of proportion because you're taking some bizarre crusade against the guys fictional trade value. The idea of trading a proven scoring forward for him is that you have a SURPLUS and you're adding to a WEAKNESS. DUHHHHHH

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01-31-2011, 02:20 PM
  #93
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Do StL fans consider him a bust?
Not at all, hes a 22 year old top pairing dman, hes just not dominant yet, thats why nobody wants to trade him, it was just some stupid rumor that i doubt was true

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01-31-2011, 02:21 PM
  #94
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Why would the Bruins trade a top 3 pick( Larson, RNH, Landeskog, Coutier) Horton who is a young 25 year old who is on pace for 50 points this year, and also Cobourne who is going to be a top 6 Center in the NHL in a couple years. There is no way the B's would do this
I'm hoping they trade up to grab Larsson, maybe Tor's pick and Colborne or our first might get it done.

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01-31-2011, 02:25 PM
  #95
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Hyperbole. No one is saying he is worthless. In fact most everyone is saying he has a lot of value.

If someone were to start this same thread, in the same situation, for Drew Doughty, do you think anyone would be scoffing at these kinds of proposals? Absolutely not. Doughty is worth more than Tavares, more than Couture, more than Hall, and no one would (reasonable anyway) would scoff at including them in the discussion. If Doughty were available, I would drive Couture to the airport, and anyone else they wanted.

Johnson simply is not, right now, in that league. Performance means a lot more than potential and until Johnson put's together a season like Doughty's last season they are simply not of similar value. Just as Prongers value improved as his play improved, so will EJ's. It's like saying "I am pretty sure that stock is going to be worth more next year, so you should pay that price now", that is not how it works.

I know your going to say "then why are Couture and Hall and Skinner etc worth more if they haven't performed yet" and the answer is simply because they are rookies. Because there is no performance (at this level) to look at, their value is solely in potential coupled with ELC contracts. EJ has been in the league awhile now, and has yet to perform up to potential. The longer that goes on, the more his value will continue to drop. It's similar to speculation on an IPO stock. It's a low risk high reward move.
EJ has played 2 1/2 seasons and scored 39 points last season on a bad team. I never knew 2 1/2 seasons was a while. EJ is on pace for around 30 points this season on a team missing 3 of it's top 6 forwards for a majority of the season. EJ has no superstar forward to feed the puck to at this time. Doughty is a great young defenseman but it always helps when you have a forward like Kopitar on your team. Letang is having a breakout season at 24 right now 2 years older then EJ.....

The Blues don't give up on a good 22 y/o top pairing defenseman with the potential to be a Norris contender for years to come with out getting a young forward with 1st line potential for many years to come.


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01-31-2011, 02:25 PM
  #96
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HOLY DELUSIONAL BLUES FAN BATMAN!!!! Lol, there is no way in hell that even EJ + you 2011 1st could get you JT. I hope you are kidding when you say that this is "realistic" in value.
How is Johnson and Tavares different? Two former #1 picks that aren't performing to what similar high picks are doing. Tavares isn't taking the leap that Stamkos did. Johnson hasn't taken that leap that Doughty did. Johnson and Tavares would have huge trade value if it wasn't for the fact that they were #1 picks.

To say Johnson isn't living up to expectations is a joke. He is 22. Pronger and Marleau both took time to develop. If a Johnson-Tavares trade was made, it would be like a Pronger-Marleau deal, both young very promising players, that will most likely hit their potential relatively soon.

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01-31-2011, 02:40 PM
  #97
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I think EJ to EDM for Eberle with STL having the option to flip first rounders in 11' is something that might work...

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01-31-2011, 03:32 PM
  #98
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I think EJ to EDM for Eberle with STL having the option to flip first rounders in 11' is something that might work...
We are not trading Johnson for Eberle. I would think by now that Oilers fans would get that, guess not.

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01-31-2011, 03:42 PM
  #99
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We are not trading Johnson for Eberle. I would think by now that Oilers fans would get that, guess not.
I'm a blues fan, and Eberle and a swap of 1st rounders putting us in the top 4 likely is a good deal. EJ's play has been falling part like a cheap suit...

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01-31-2011, 03:44 PM
  #100
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I'm a blues fan, and Eberle and a swap of 1st rounders putting us in the top 4 likely is a good deal. EJ's play has been falling part like a cheap suit...
That doesnt make us a better team right now, and thats what JD and co would want to do, they need to make the playoffs this year

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