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Old
02-21-2011, 03:29 PM
  #951
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I didn't realize Ray Shero had his magician's certification.

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02-21-2011, 03:30 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
I didn't realize Ray Shero had his magician's certification.
He's made a few very nice deals now.

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02-21-2011, 03:30 PM
  #953
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You gotta b kidding me. WTF, Dallas?

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02-21-2011, 03:33 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
I think it's kind of unfair to list all these but leave out the signing of Bobrovsky.
Edit: Missed this portion of my response when my browser crapped out. Fair point on your part, but I look at the Bobrovsky signing as I do Testwuide and Gustaffson. It was Homer signing prospects because we've had a lack of picks of late. And I totally commend him for it, it's a great move. I'm very happy he is doing it. However, Bobrovsky was not signed with the expectation that he would be the greater half of a starting duo THIS season. It's apples to oranges IMO.

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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I didn't say they didn't overpay for him, but it really isn't a gross overpayment when compared to other guys around the league. Yeah, it could have saved $.8-$1 million, but that is splitting hairs. Players like SHelley and Walker get signed or traded every year and they play their roles. Certain players are not acquired with hopes of taking home any hardware. The extra $1 million wouldn't have kept Gagne here. It wouldn't have brought in Vokoun or another goalie of that status. The Flyers would likely still have the same team with maybe a different 13th forward.



I thought we agreed we wouldn't get back into this discussion again? Based on the preceding season, Leighton Earned a substantial raise. It doesn't matter how much you think he sucks, he put up good numbers and backstopped the team to the Stanley Cup Finals. Anyone who did that would get a raise from $600k (I think that was his salary last season). Maybe $1.5 was a bit much (though, I don't think it was) but it's not like he was going to sign for $500k just because he is Michael Leighton. He played well enough the season before to earn a raise. End of story. If any goalie on the planet put up his numbers and was the goalie on the Eastern Conference Champions and was making $600k the year before, they are going to get a raise. That is how it works. You have a good year in your contract year, you get a raise.
The amount by which a player is overpaid is relative to that player IMO. 800k-1 million for guys making just over 1 million is a ton. a 200k overpayment for Shelley is 18% of his cap hit. An 18% overpayment for a guy playing 6 minutes a game. So 18% overpayment for 10% of a game. Compare that to a "star" and it's significantly more substantial. Let's say Kimmo. Kimmo makes 6.333 million. 18% of that is 1.15 million. And at least in Kimmo's case, if you overpay him 1.15 million, he's playing 22 minutes a game, or nearly 37% of a game. It's just not smart money.

Not to mention that 800k - 1 million, I believe to be a lot in the cap world. 1 million in cap savings, can add a significant player in a pro-rated deal at the end of the year. 1 million can pay Jeff Carter's raise for the next 4 years basically. Yes the team probably would not be very different at all, but it doesn't make the move any more acceptable. It's terrible asset management. 1 million in savings now, is 1 million in bonus money we can have on the books for THIS year, and not have to push into next season, a season in which we have Giroux and Carter getting raises, a newly acquired Versteeg making 3 million, and Leino to re-sign. That 1 million can go a long way next year. So sorry if I refuse to write off 1 million in mistakes, it IS substantial.

I will also agree that Leighton did deserve a raise, but it's still terribly stupid to give him that raise before Free Agency started. Do you buy the very first car you look at at whatever price the salesman gives you? Because that's what Homer did. I'd bet you wouldn't. I'd bet you'd shop around, see what was out there, and leverage it against that salesman to try to get your money's worth. Again, terrible asset management. I'll even go as far as saying, I'm fine with the price if Homer had gone about it the RIGHT way, but he didn't. He shows terrible impatience at times, and a recklessnes that worries me.

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Old
02-21-2011, 03:35 PM
  #955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Is that so dictator of Flyers-related discussion? Gimme a break.

The bottom line is that Leighton got overpaid (by at least 500K a year) for 25 games and some playoff wins against weak offensive teams before getting gutted like a fish in the SCFs. He showed in the SCFs why he wasn't good enough to get us where we needed to go, and that should have been the end of it. It wasn't.

Instead, Holmgren signed him prior to July 1st after flirting briefly with Turco and Nabokov, and overpaid for him in the process.

So, by the definition of "overpayment" (which you yourself hinted might be a true critique above) he specifically did not earn what he got.

You think it's a fair contract? Fine, but get over yourself with declaring the discussion over due to your myopic take on what went down. Neither you or I get to "end the discussion" and frankly, I'm not the only one that feels this way about that contract (clearly)... hell, there was a post written by one of the stats guys right after the deal outlining how Leighton was overpaid.

http://www.behindthenethockey.com/20...signs-with-phi
You have to look at the context of things. The two best goalies on the market were by far Turco and Nabakov. They wouldn't sign for what the Flyers were willing to offer (which was at least double what they offered Leighton). While it didn't turn out to be the case, that was a pretty good indicator of what the market would be like. The likes of Dan Ellis, Chris Mason, and Jose Theodore were other possible additions in net, none of which are that much better, if at all than Leighton. Sure, he could have waited until July 1 and maybe gotten him for cheaper or gotten someone else. But the way things were going it was looking like the other options may have wanted more so he signed Leighton before he could sign somewhere else. Things went sour with the injuries obviously, but that's not what is at issue here. At the time, while maybe a slight over payment (though even if we agree that he was overpaid $500k, that is not all that outrageous and I don't believe he was overpaid at all). You can talk all you want about how he only played bad teams and blah blah blah but the fact of the matter is that he put up the numbers he did and when you put up good numbers, you get more money. It isn't a difficult concept.

That article also isn't very convincing. I never said Leighton's body of work over his whole career earned him that paycheck, I said last season did. He had awful stats and never impressed anyone, until he got to the Flyers. Then he put up some good numbers in the regular season. Then he played well in the playoffs (remember that Montreal series?). You point out that he didn't do well against Chicago as if that proves he didn't deserve the money. Then you say that I am using too small of a sample size to say he did earn it. Interesting take on it.

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02-21-2011, 03:36 PM
  #956
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Maybe Shero threatened Dallas that they would send Lemieux after them through the NHL if they didn't give him what he wanted.

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Old
02-21-2011, 03:39 PM
  #957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You have to look at the context of things. The two best goalies on the market were by far Turco and Nabakov. They wouldn't sign for what the Flyers were willing to offer (which was at least double what they offered Leighton). While it didn't turn out to be the case, that was a pretty good indicator of what the market would be like.
I want you think about this statement real hard. They were specifically a terrible indication of what the market would be like. The market was exactly what everyone expected, a ****-tastic one if you were an UFA goalie. Nabokov ended up in the KHL, and Turco ended up taking a cheap one-year deal in Chicago.

Holmgren could have waited and gotten a better deal.

Quote:
That article also isn't very convincing. I never said Leighton's body of work over his whole career earned him that paycheck, I said last season did.
And that is a terrible argument justifying that deal.

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Old
02-21-2011, 03:41 PM
  #958
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That's a great deal for Pitt, but I'm not sure what some of you are saying with Niskanen being good. Goligoski is a lot better than Niskanen

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02-21-2011, 03:43 PM
  #959
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Goligoski could turn out to be the next Brian Rafalski, but right now I don't think he should be enough to land Neal (unless there's something else going on here... I can't say I'm following what's happening in Dallas fanatically). As for Niskanen replacing Goligoski though, I mean he could perhaps turn it around in Pittsburgh, but he has 6 assists in 45 games for Dallas. And 0 goals. It's not as if the Stars are drowning in offensive minded defenders. Robidas and Daley knows what to do offensively, but not much more and after that it's downhill pretty fast. So Goligoski is actually a pretty good fit for them. Seems like they should have gotten a 1st as well though.

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Old
02-21-2011, 03:43 PM
  #960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You have to look at the context of things. The two best goalies on the market were by far Turco and Nabakov. They wouldn't sign for what the Flyers were willing to offer (which was at least double what they offered Leighton). While it didn't turn out to be the case, that was a pretty good indicator of what the market would be like. The likes of Dan Ellis, Chris Mason, and Jose Theodore were other possible additions in net, none of which are that much better, if at all than Leighton. Sure, he could have waited until July 1 and maybe gotten him for cheaper or gotten someone else. But the way things were going it was looking like the other options may have wanted more so he signed Leighton before he could sign somewhere else. Things went sour with the injuries obviously, but that's not what is at issue here. At the time, while maybe a slight over payment (though even if we agree that he was overpaid $500k, that is not all that outrageous and I don't believe he was overpaid at all). You can talk all you want about how he only played bad teams and blah blah blah but the fact of the matter is that he put up the numbers he did and when you put up good numbers, you get more money. It isn't a difficult concept.
It's called playing the market. Holmgren in his time has shown that he's deathly afraid of having to do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That article also isn't very convincing. I never said Leighton's body of work over his whole career earned him that paycheck, I said last season did. He had awful stats and never impressed anyone, until he got to the Flyers. Then he put up some good numbers in the regular season. Then he played well in the playoffs (remember that Montreal series?). You point out that he didn't do well against Chicago as if that proves he didn't deserve the money. Then you say that I am using too small of a sample size to say he did earn it. Interesting take on it.
Montreal's ineptitude in scoring goals last year might have a little bit to do with that. Boston was last.

People said when Michael Leighton was going to face a high scoring team, he would get exposed and lit up, and those people were right.

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Old
02-21-2011, 03:49 PM
  #961
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From what I've seen in Niskanen the past few years, is that he stinks.

He had promise a few years back but I haven't seen that at all recently

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Old
02-21-2011, 03:55 PM
  #962
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I think people on HFboards are seriously unrating goligoski. The guy is a pretty damn good defenseman, I'm actually glad that he's not in our division anymore. While neal is a good player, the guy still hasn't hit 30 goals, lets not get above ourselves here. He might click with crosby, but unless he is scoring 40-50 goals with crosby, it's not going to be a huge improvement over what they get out of their ****** wingers.

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02-21-2011, 03:55 PM
  #963
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I didn't even think about the fact that the Pens have Despres to replace Goligoski. What a fantatstic deal for them. ****.

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02-21-2011, 03:56 PM
  #964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Edit: Missed this portion of my response when my browser crapped out. Fair point on your part, but I look at the Bobrovsky signing as I do Testwuide and Gustaffson. It was Homer signing prospects because we've had a lack of picks of late. And I totally commend him for it, it's a great move. I'm very happy he is doing it. However, Bobrovsky was not signed with the expectation that he would be the greater half of a starting duo THIS season. It's apples to oranges IMO.
I don't really think that's fair to say either. If he makes a move that exceeds expectations you can't simply write it off but then make a big stink every time a trade blows up. If Bobrovsky wouldn't have worked out like he has you would be ripping him for not going out and getting a goaltender, so I don't think it's fair to sit back and say well it worked out better then he hoped. It worked out better than YOU hoped.

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02-21-2011, 03:57 PM
  #965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It's called playing the market. Holmgren in his time has shown that he's deathly afraid of having to do that.
Yeah, I have seen that he likes to get out there earlier rather than wait and play the market. I still don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. For all we know if he waited we may be sitting here with Boucher and Backlund as our starters (I'm not counting Bobrovsky because he wasn't signed as a solution this season). Sometimes you get bit in the ass from jumping the gun, other times you don't. It's the old adage of a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. I think with the people available (that were affordable) going out and getting Leighton wasn't jumping the gun considering that the other goalies (not Turco and Nabby, because they were not affordable) were either not an improvement or not a substantial improvement, it is safer to have Michael Leighton than no one at all.

Quote:
Montreal's ineptitude in scoring goals last year might have a little bit to do with that. Boston was last.

People said when Michael Leighton was going to face a high scoring team, he would get exposed and lit up, and those people were right.
Yeah but you shutout the same team in the playoffs three times, that is good. I love how people are so quick to take away from Leighton's accomplishments because they were against "bad" teams. He plays well against a bad team and it is because the team sucks and he is not good. He plays poorly against a good team and it is because he sucks, not because the team is good. That makes total sense.

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Old
02-21-2011, 04:02 PM
  #966
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so Leighton goes from a scrub who was up and down on the wiaver wire to suddenly become a good goaltender who had ONE good stretch in his NHL career and is worthy of a 1.5 million dollar deal. k then.

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Old
02-21-2011, 04:02 PM
  #967
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
I don't really think that's fair to say either. If he makes a move that exceeds expectations you can't simply write it off but then make a big stink every time a trade blows up. If Bobrovsky wouldn't have worked out like he has you would be ripping him for not going out and getting a goaltender, so I don't think it's fair to sit back and say well it worked out better then he hoped. It worked out better than YOU hoped.
You credit him for making the signing, but that doesn't mean his intellectual approach to the goaltending situation was accurate. Accurate planning is more likely to be something you can do again than getting lucky that a rookie goalie proves unexpectedly ready.

Bob was a good signing (and pretty much everyone liked the signing), but no one expected him to be on the big boy roster this year... and if he hadn't worked out, we'd be running a Leighton/Boucher tandem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Yeah but you shutout the same team in the playoffs three times, that is good. I love how people are so quick to take away from Leighton's accomplishments because they were against "bad" teams. He plays well against a bad team and it is because the team sucks and he is not good. He plays poorly against a good team and it is because he sucks, not because the team is good. That makes total sense.
Did you watch the SCFs?

You're acting like this is hindsight critique... when, in fact, some of us were harping on Leighton being a looming disaster all along. It's easy to look good defensively and as a goalie against weak offenses (they, ya know, aren't as good at scoring goals). Leighton blew up as many of us predicted when he faced a good offense.

He didn't play poorly against the Blackhawks, he played like Michael Leighton... a not so good goalie.

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02-21-2011, 04:05 PM
  #968
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I think people on HFboards are seriously unrating goligoski. The guy is a pretty damn good defenseman, I'm actually glad that he's not in our division anymore. While neal is a good player, the guy still hasn't hit 30 goals, lets not get above ourselves here. He might click with crosby, but unless he is scoring 40-50 goals with crosby, it's not going to be a huge improvement over what they get out of their ****** wingers.
He's 23... with 3 consecutive 20+ goal campaigns under his belt. The Pens biggest problem has been lack of depth on the wings, and now they got a good young winger you can pencil in for 25+ goals for a good number of years in the fold.

That's a pretty huge improvement for them.

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02-21-2011, 04:08 PM
  #969
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I watch a surprising amount of Stars hockey (they interest me and they are on later than the Flyers most nights). Niskanen is NOT consistent enough to be "GOOD". Goligoski is the better player. Dallas overpaid, but Pittsburgh defense took a hit here.

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02-21-2011, 04:12 PM
  #970
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I watch a surprising amount of Stars hockey (they interest me and they are on later than the Flyers most nights). Niskanen is NOT consistent enough to be "GOOD". Goligoski is the better player. Dallas overpaid, but Pittsburgh defense took a hit here.
I tend to agree, but that's with only passing knowledge of Niskanen. The Pens could give up some D, and are pitiful on wing... so that makes this a big win deal for 'em, though.

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02-21-2011, 04:16 PM
  #971
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I tend to agree, but that's with only passing knowledge of Niskanen. The Pens could give up some D, and are pitiful on wing... so that makes this a big win deal for 'em, though.
Maybe. But it also clears cap space for Dallas, and if that means they keep Richards, it's a win for them too.

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02-21-2011, 04:18 PM
  #972
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What the **** is Dallas doing? So bad

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02-21-2011, 04:25 PM
  #973
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Dallas got a significant upgrade on D and cap space for a very good winger, which they have a number of.

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Old
02-21-2011, 04:26 PM
  #974
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Niskanen does suck but They have Despres to step in. guys in the minors to step in when you trade away a decent top 4 guy. What a novel concept that this organization doesnt get.

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Old
02-21-2011, 04:28 PM
  #975
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Maybe. But it also clears cap space for Dallas, and if that means they keep Richards, it's a win for them too.
That has value to them, but it isn't really relevant to the evaluation of the parts of this specific trade. There aren't that many young guys out there with legit 30 goal potential, let alone legit consistent 25+ potential. Goligoski is a good, but somewhat undersized D with some offensive chops... sorta meh.

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