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Old
02-01-2011, 11:43 AM
  #51
Chimaera
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I disagree. Torres would have been well within his rights to demand a transfer after they finished 7th last year. He would have been well within his rights to demand one after they sold Mascherano and didn't bring in anyone special with that cash. He stuck around and then found himself 9 points out of a Champions League spot with 3 teams to climb over, 2 with a game in hand, and only 14 games to play and saw the writing on the wall.

I like Suarez up front but they still had nobody who can really load the gun for the forwards and IMO they don't have a decent wide midfielder or left back on the squad.

So how long was Torres supposed to stick around? Given that this summer's transfer window is the first that is going to apply to the new European financial rules Chelski wasn't going to be paying 50 mil for him this summer.
Many are suggesting that those Jan 9th statements might have been canned from earlier.

I'm not blaming the guy for wanting to go. That's silly. I think he's a ****** for going 3 days before the window left. He left because he felt like the club wasn't going to show ambition, and I think he's nuts.

He certainly could have left in the summer, and no one would have felt like he ripped us off.

As far as the Fair Play Rules, they're all pretty debatable at this point. No one really knows how it will work. If you can be judged over a 3 year period, then, feasibly, you could stack the books in one season (sell 3 or 4 players in one window right before the evaluation is done) and then buy 3-4 players after in the next window.


as for not bringing anyone in with Torres, I think you're right. But only a fool wouldn't realize that the ownership was the issue more so than the club's goals or aspirations.


Either way, I don't care. He's dead to me. His whole "I'm finally at a big club" is gutless and stupid. Kenny said it best when he said "Anyone who had any doubts about hunger or anybody taking this club forward, they're gone now." You're not bigger than our club, and we don't need you. Only a fool would suggest on a team who has struggled with depth of quality options, that Torres is better than Suarez/Carroll at this stage. Especially when you consider they were pretty close to Adam, Young and possibly Richards. They're going to spend in the summer, and when they're younger, hungrier and possibly better soon, Torres will realize his misjudgment. But he's getting 90k more a week, so who cares right?

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02-01-2011, 11:58 AM
  #52
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This stuff is great. Any interest in starting up an OT EPL thread, much like the video games thread? I have interest, limited viewing opportunity and nearly zero knowledge about the sport, much less league goings on. Would love to see a thread like that here, updated regularly, and lurk. There's a soccer board on Page 2, but it's not the same as the group here.
I'd be happy with that! Make it so Number 1!

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02-01-2011, 11:59 AM
  #53
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Oh, and there's a Liverpool Reds group that meets in Baltimore. Been a few times.

I'm going to Anfield this summer. Can't wait.
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April 10 against City for me. No tickets yet, but I'll make it happen.
Man...I was looking at tickets for some of the big name matches....at least the one place I was looking online, the ticket prices seemed insane.

I was thinking of popping over to London for 4 days and trying to see a game or two while there.

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02-01-2011, 12:01 PM
  #54
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Good point. EPL probably gets the most North American attention, but a thread for European league football in general would be welcome. I've never been able to get past the casual/time difference hurdles to following league play for any length of time. World Cup and that's been it.
Same here....maybe if I pick a favorite team finally I'll be motivated to deal with the time difficulties.

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02-01-2011, 12:09 PM
  #55
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It doesn't matter what the reason was that Liverpool slipped as far as talent in the squad goes, was Torres really supposed to spend another year not playing in the Champions League? That is all I am saying. He was leaving and now is as good a time as the summer IMO and better for him as it gives him more time to settle for next season when he will actually be allowed to play in the Champions League.

Are Suarez and Carroll better for Liverpool than Torres? I guess if you are simply looking at squad depth then sure. But if the object is to be the best then I don't think so. It doesn't really matter as Torres wasn't sticking around past this summer anyway so for the same reason as it made sense for him to move now having 2 new players having more time to settle before next season, especially since Suarez is making a big step up from the Dutch League, makes sense for Liverpool.

I don't understand the Judas stuff from Liverpool supporters at all.

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02-01-2011, 12:22 PM
  #56
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It doesn't matter what the reason was that Liverpool slipped as far as talent in the squad goes, was Torres really supposed to spend another year not playing in the Champions League? That is all I am saying. He was leaving and now is as good a time as the summer IMO and better for him as it gives him more time to settle for next season when he will actually be allowed to play in the Champions League.

Are Suarez and Carroll better for Liverpool than Torres? I guess if you are simply looking at squad depth then sure. But if the object is to be the best then I don't think so. It doesn't really matter as Torres wasn't sticking around past this summer anyway so for the same reason as it made sense for him to move now having 2 new players having more time to settle before next season, especially since Suarez is making a big step up from the Dutch League, makes sense for Liverpool.

I don't understand the Judas stuff from Liverpool supporters at all.
You're really not grasping the circumstances. It not that he wanted to leave, it's how he went about it. He engineered a move to the club's 3rd most hated rival with virtually no time for them to find a suitable replacement, after making repeated declarations about staying.

It'd be like Ovechkin demanding a trade to the Rangers a few days before the trade deadline, while the Caps were starting to play well and making a charge for a playoff spot.

I'm telling you, if Torres put in the transfer request this summer, or even at the beginning of the window, there's not nearly the hatred. The club could have sold him to wherever made the most sense (i.e., not a bitter rival in the same league) and the club would have had plenty of time to replace him.


Edit: And regarding the fair play rules, if they're actually enforced, Torres made a massive mistake. Chelsea doesn't bring in anything close to Liverpool annually.

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02-01-2011, 12:22 PM
  #57
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It's hard to understand it when you're a club with no history, plastic atmosphere, and basically a squad of a bunch of rent boys.

We expect more loyalty and respect out of our players, and more faith in the club. Maybe that's foolish, but whatever.

Most aren't begrudging him for moving. I don't care if he goes. That's fine. We spent the money, and are probably better for it. The issue we have is when he demands a transfer 3 days before the window closes when they're barely able to spend the cash. What happened yesterday is an anomaly. Typically, clubs can't spend like that right before the window closes, and deals don't go like crazy.

Carroll and Suarez cut down the wages, and offer us plenty of options to spend this summer. I rather players who want to be here. No one is bigger than the club.


It's going to be interesting to see when you guys turn on him when he's injured or playing at 60% from the groin or hamstring issue from international duty. It's going to be interesting to see that locker when you've got 3 players who play the same role trying to find time on the pitch.

He isn't the player he once was, and 50 million is out and out ridiculous for him. He's only had 3 or 4 good matches all season. He's lost his pace, and he's not the same.

Good luck with a squad when you've got to replace all your top players soon (most are 30-32+) and can't do it because of regulations.

You're looking at a side that lost 70 million pounds last year alone. What will it be this year?

All that said, and you might not even finish top 4 this year.

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02-01-2011, 12:23 PM
  #58
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They're not a rival. We don't have a rivalry with them.

They're not United or Everton. We don't like them because they're what's wrong with football. They're manufactured, fake, and not worthy of our scorn.

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02-01-2011, 12:27 PM
  #59
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They're not a rival. We don't have a rivalry with them.

They're not United or Everton. We don't like them because they're what's wrong with football. They're manufactured, fake, and not worthy of our scorn.
Meh, there's not a traditional rivalry. But there's certainly more hate for Chelsea from Liverpool fans than any EPL club other than United and Everton.

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02-01-2011, 12:30 PM
  #60
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I wonder how Suarez feels now knowing that Torres is gone. The idea of playing with Torres had to be attractive before he signed.

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02-01-2011, 12:33 PM
  #61
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I wonder how Suarez feels now knowing that Torres is gone. The idea of playing with Torres had to be attractive before he signed.
I'm sure there was a touch of disappointment. But he's taking a huge step forward for his career (and likely his wallet). I'm sure once he's handed the #7 shirt from Kenny freaking Dalglish, he'll get over any disappointment he might feel.

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02-01-2011, 12:41 PM
  #62
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I wonder how Suarez feels now knowing that Torres is gone. The idea of playing with Torres had to be attractive before he signed.
He already said that it didn't matter to him, that he would join no matter what.

He made the choice to move to Liverpool because he feels they're one of the most important clubs in the world.


I don't think Torres was the end of it. I do think he wanted to play with him, but I know he understands that some can move if they want.

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02-01-2011, 12:53 PM
  #63
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You're really not grasping the circumstances. It not that he wanted to leave, it's how he went about it. He engineered a move to the club's 3rd most hated rival with virtually no time for them to find a suitable replacement, after making repeated declarations about staying.

It'd be like Ovechkin demanding a trade to the Rangers a few days before the trade deadline, while the Caps were starting to play well and making a charge for a playoff spot.

I'm telling you, if Torres put in the transfer request this summer, or even at the beginning of the window, there's not nearly the hatred. The club could have sold him to wherever made the most sense (i.e., not a bitter rival in the same league) and the club would have had plenty of time to replace him.
Torres did make noise about leaving last summer and Liverpool convinced him to stay by convincing him they would significantly strengthen the squad. Do you honestly feel they held up their end of the bargain there?

I said they should have sold him last summer and started building a new squad then.

And I definitely feel that them getting Suarez now made him feel better about leaving as they now had a replacement in place.

And yeah Chelski is not a rival of Liverpool any more than any of the other non ManU traditional top of the table teams are.

And the Ovechkin to the Rangers analogy doesn't work for me as Liverpool are not going to be playing Champions League football next year Torres or not.

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02-01-2011, 01:03 PM
  #64
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Torres did make noise about leaving last summer and Liverpool convinced him to stay by convincing him they would significantly strengthen the squad. Do you honestly feel they held up their end of the bargain there?

I said they should have sold him last summer and started building a new squad then.

And I definitely feel that them getting Suarez now made him feel better about leaving as they now had a replacement in place.

And yeah Chelski is not a rival of Liverpool any more than any of the other non ManU traditional top of the table teams are.

And the Ovechkin to the Rangers analogy doesn't work for me as Liverpool are not going to be playing Champions League football next year Torres or not.
This window was essentially the new owners' first chance to improve the squad at all, and they added one of the best goal scorers in Europe. They would have been able to add Adam as well if the Torres thing hadn't happened.

If they sold Torres in the summer, there wouldn't have been any new squad building. The profits would have likely gone straight into servicing H&G's debt.

Make no mistake, Chelsea is more hated by Liverpool fans than any other EPL team outside of United or Everton. And Chelsea is direct competition for a Champion's League spot.

Liverpool are 9 points out of 4th right now, with 15 league games to go. While probably not likely, that's certainly not an insurmountable gap.

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02-01-2011, 01:04 PM
  #65
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It's hard to understand it when you're a club with no history, plastic atmosphere, and basically a squad of a bunch of rent boys.
I 100% understand what you are saying but the fact is they are playing Champions League football every year and that is not something you can say for Liverpool this year or next. Whether that continues we will see I guess for both teams.

I completely agree that Chelski is everything that is wrong with football and frankly City is even worse.

I used to kind of like Chelsea when Glenn Hoddle started his top European star pensioners camp and he brought in Gullit and then Petrescu, Vialli, Zola, Di Matteo and so many others followed. Since Abramovich bought the team and especially when Mourinho was in charge I have hated them though.

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02-01-2011, 01:10 PM
  #66
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If the Financial Fair Play rules are actually enforced, there's a very good possibility that Chelsea won't be playing in the Champions League next season either, considering they lost 70 million GBP last year, and just spent another 70 million in the transfer window.

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02-01-2011, 01:22 PM
  #67
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This window was essentially the new owners' first chance to improve the squad at all, and they added one of the best goal scorers in Europe. They would have been able to add Adam as well if the Torres thing hadn't happened.

If they sold Torres in the summer, there wouldn't have been any new squad building. The profits would have likely gone straight into servicing H&G's debt.

Make no mistake, Chelsea is more hated by Liverpool fans than any other EPL team outside of United or Everton. And Chelsea is direct competition for a Champion's League spot.

Liverpool are 9 points out of 4th right now, with 15 league games to go. While probably not likely, that's certainly not an insurmountable gap.
9 points out of 4th with 14 games to play and 3 teams above them with Chelski and Spuds both with a game in hand.

And what about selling Torres didn't allow them to add Adam? If they were willing to spend 23 on Suarez and the 14 Blackpool wanted for Adam while keeping Torres they had the money to replace Torres with Carroll and still land Adam and another 15 mil player with the difference between Torres and Carroll.

And it doesn't matter if this is the new ownership's first go around in the transfer market. If they weren't going to be in the Champions League next year he didn't care and clearly he didn't feel they would be in the Champions League so when Chelski met Liverpool's evaluation of him he left and they replaced him with Carroll, so again I don't see how he screwed them. If anything they screwed him by having him miss a season of Champions League football.

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02-01-2011, 01:22 PM
  #68
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Torres did make noise about leaving last summer and Liverpool convinced him to stay by convincing him they would significantly strengthen the squad. Do you honestly feel they held up their end of the bargain there?

I said they should have sold him last summer and started building a new squad then.

And I definitely feel that them getting Suarez now made him feel better about leaving as they now had a replacement in place.

And yeah Chelski is not a rival of Liverpool any more than any of the other non ManU traditional top of the table teams are.

And the Ovechkin to the Rangers analogy doesn't work for me as Liverpool are not going to be playing Champions League football next year Torres or not.
I'm not sure why he stayed. I'm fairly certain it was related to a promise of a 50 million clause to let him go in the summer if we didn't make it.

I do think he was upset when the Huang bid didn't come through because it looked like he was going to float a ton of money.

I know they would not have sold him prior to new owners coming in no matter what he wanted, because selling the club without it's best asset is almost impossible.

As for meeting his end of the deal, there's no guarantee he should be promised titles or medals. You never really know. Heck, if he had potted a few more two years back, or stayed healthy we might have won something. Not his fault, but he's not completely from blame. We actually wouldn't be near 7th, had he been on form and actually interested this season.

There's just a common decency, that if he wanted to move mid season, he lets the club know January 1st, or even before. Make it known you want to see some buys.

I do think that was some of it. He was feeling like they weren't going to buy, or not be able to do so.

I think he felt we didn't have ambition. which is obviously not the case.

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02-01-2011, 01:25 PM
  #69
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If the Financial Fair Play rules are actually enforced, there's a very good possibility that Chelsea won't be playing in the Champions League next season either, considering they lost 70 million GBP last year, and just spent another 70 million in the transfer window.
They start counting this summer and you have 3 years to get your house in order I believe. Is there a good chance 3 years from now Chelski and City, as well as quite a few big European teams, will have some issues, but not before then.

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02-01-2011, 01:29 PM
  #70
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9 points out of 4th with 14 games to play and 3 teams above them with Chelski and Spuds both with a game in hand.

And what about selling Torres didn't allow them to add Adam? If they were willing to spend 23 on Suarez and the 14 Blackpool wanted for Adam while keeping Torres they had the money to replace Torres with Carroll and still land Adam and another 15 mil player with the difference between Torres and Carroll.

And it doesn't matter if this is the new ownership's first go around in the transfer market. If they weren't going to be in the Champions League next year he didn't care and clearly he didn't feel they would be in the Champions League so when Chelski met Liverpool's evaluation of him he left and they replaced him with Carroll, so again I don't see how he screwed them. If anything they screwed him by having him miss a season of Champions League football.
Blackpool wouldn't sell to Liverpool. Period. We had offered more than fair terms. Heck, we offered 14, and they shot it down. He accepted a bid of 8 from Spurs, but wouldn't sell to us for 14? When his player offered a transfer request? Flat out stupid IMO.

They placed bids for Young (16 million) who would have sold him for 18, and probably would have gone for more had they known about Adam before the end of the window closing. They couldn't justify spending 14 on Adam and then 20+ on Young, it was one or the other for the most part.

They did inquire about Richards (who doesn't do much but sit the bench) and made it known they would spend 20. City shot it down.

I see the desire for CL football. however, I don't think anyone would have regretted it had he asked out earlier in the window. He hasn't been treated the greatest (nor has anyone in management) but that doesn't mean he had to be a **** bag.


In either case, while I don't think that Liverpool are going to wind up in the CL this season (stranger things HAVE happened), I think Chelsea has something to be nervous about their own spot. Spurs have a good shot at taking it away.

We do have Spurs and Chelsea in the season left pretty soon, and winning both could change the picture a lot.

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02-01-2011, 01:30 PM
  #71
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9 points out of 4th with 14 games to play and 3 teams above them with Chelski and Spuds both with a game in hand.

And what about selling Torres didn't allow them to add Adam? If they were willing to spend 23 on Suarez and the 14 Blackpool wanted for Adam while keeping Torres they had the money to replace Torres with Carroll and still land Adam and another 15 mil player with the difference between Torres and Carroll.

And it doesn't matter if this is the new ownership's first go around in the transfer market. If they weren't going to be in the Champions League next year he didn't care and clearly he didn't feel they would be in the Champions League so when Chelski met Liverpool's evaluation of him he left and they replaced him with Carroll, so again I don't see how he screwed them. If anything they screwed him by having him miss a season of Champions League football.
Blackpool accepted a bid from Spurs that was for 3 million less than Liverpool's rejected bid. They wanted more from Liverpool because they had the Torres money.

You still don't get it, at all. This isn't just about Torres' Champions League aspirations. It's about the corner he painted the club into. They paid about 10 million too much for Carroll because they were desperate. He forced Liverpool to sell him at short notice, and forced them to sell him to Chelsea, strengthening a competitor in the Premier League. Again, if he had put in the request at the beginning of the window, it's a whole different ballgame. They probably could have gotten the Milan clubs, City, and likely Barca involved. They would have gotten a better price, and had plenty of time to spend the profits more diligently. Instead of just Suarez and Carroll as additions, they might have been able to add a winger, along with someone in the midfield and back line.

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02-01-2011, 01:33 PM
  #72
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If the Financial Fair Play rules are actually enforced, there's a very good possibility that Chelsea won't be playing in the Champions League next season either, considering they lost 70 million GBP last year, and just spent another 70 million in the transfer window.
I had never heard of this...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...al-regulations

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02-01-2011, 01:37 PM
  #73
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I'm not sure why he stayed. I'm fairly certain it was related to a promise of a 50 million clause to let him go in the summer if we didn't make it.

I do think he was upset when the Huang bid didn't come through because it looked like he was going to float a ton of money.

I know they would not have sold him prior to new owners coming in no matter what he wanted, because selling the club without it's best asset is almost impossible.

As for meeting his end of the deal, there's no guarantee he should be promised titles or medals. You never really know. Heck, if he had potted a few more two years back, or stayed healthy we might have won something. Not his fault, but he's not completely from blame. We actually wouldn't be near 7th, had he been on form and actually interested this season.

There's just a common decency, that if he wanted to move mid season, he lets the club know January 1st, or even before. Make it known you want to see some buys. I do think that was some of it. He was feeling like they weren't going to buy, or not be able to do so.

I think he felt we didn't have ambition. which is obviously not the case.
Isn't it possible that some behind the scenes stuff happened with management that made him change his mind last minute?

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02-01-2011, 01:37 PM
  #74
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They start counting this summer and you have 3 years to get your house in order I believe. Is there a good chance 3 years from now Chelski and City, as well as quite a few big European teams, will have some issues, but not before then.
Thanks for the clarification. The last article I read hadn't specified the 3 year period. That said, 140 million is still going to be a heck of a hole to climb out of by the time the rules take effect.

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02-01-2011, 01:43 PM
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Isn't it possible that some behind the scenes stuff happened with management that made him change his mind last minute?
I can't imagine that anything happened that would have made him feel like the club lost ambition. They had just fired a manager because his mid-table play wasn't good enough, and were in the process of finalizing a huge transfer for a player meant to complement Torres. If anything, management had shown more ambition in January than they have in a couple years.

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