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For those who say obstruction is worse than ever...

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06-20-2004, 04:01 PM
  #1
Phanuthier*
 
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For those who say obstruction is worse than ever...

This is for you

"I went back and looked at games from when I was GM in Hartford some 10 or 11 years ago," Brian Burke told the Globe & Mail last summer. "The obstruction was horrible, just horrible. Players were being physically tackled in the neutral zone. It's way better now so I think the league has made a step but not enough to suit me. It's got to be more."

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06-20-2004, 04:21 PM
  #2
iagreewithidiots
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I just went back and watched some old tapes of mine from 10-11 years ago.

I can say with certainty obstruction today is much worse.

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06-20-2004, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iagreewithidiots
I just went back and watched some old tapes of mine from 10-11 years ago.

I can say with certainty obstruction today is much worse.
Were you watching the Hartford Whalers and other crappy teams?

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06-20-2004, 06:11 PM
  #4
shadoz19
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Its improved maybe in the regular season but not the playoffs.

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06-20-2004, 07:27 PM
  #5
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The league will ALWAYS have bad teams

BTW, isn't one of the so-called "best teamss in the league" in the Detriot Red Wings, considered to be the biggest offender in the clutch-and-grab game of hockey?

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06-20-2004, 09:02 PM
  #6
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The Wings are more known for diving. I remember watching the Flames/Wings series and the announcers were talking about it whenever the Wings got a power play.

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06-20-2004, 09:27 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
The league will ALWAYS have bad teams

BTW, isn't one of the so-called "best teamss in the league" in the Detriot Red Wings, considered to be the biggest offender in the clutch-and-grab game of hockey?
actually your beloved flames are.


flames, minnesota, and about half of the teams from the eastern conference play a heavy obstruction style.

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06-20-2004, 09:43 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucks666
actually your beloved flames are.


flames, minnesota, and about half of the teams from the eastern conference play a heavy obstruction style.
Uhh... right... well at least I understand why you have that avatar.

Must be some sort of warning of such.

Obstruction occurs when you arn't moving your legs. The Flames have widely be recognized as one of the fastest skating teams in the league and throughout the media, and the only team to place 6 skaters to lapse the rink under 14 seconds. Heck, the Flames play their trap on the forcheck. The Flames have tons of speed, and to say that they are a clutch-and-grab team shows you're just another bitter Canuck fan here at HF. Singling out the Flames and Minnisota, the two teams that elimiated your beloved Canucks in the past 2 years.

But thanks for the intelligent post

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06-20-2004, 09:45 PM
  #9
Kirk Muller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucks666
actually your beloved flames are.


flames, minnesota, and about half of the teams from the eastern conference play a heavy obstruction style.

Still bitter... Flames are no worse nor better than any team in this league. Every team does it, including your beloved Canucks. Winning teams fight through it, and losers use it as an excuse.

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Old
06-20-2004, 09:55 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash13
Still bitter... Flames are no worse nor better than any team in this league. Every team does it, including your beloved Canucks. Winning teams fight through it, and losers use it as an excuse.
To an extent, every single team in the league plays at least some level of obstruction, but Calgary (except maybe the latter part of the finals when they started to wear down) doesn't obstruct alot... and as much as I hate the Oilers, Leafs and Canucks, neither of the 3 play a clutch-and-grab game.

Teams that don't skate, like Detriot, need some way to slow down quicker teams and dispite their immense talent, Detriot in lacking in the area of quickness.

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06-20-2004, 11:05 PM
  #11
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The Flames do obstruct, it's not just about good skaters, it's about eliminating talent and creativity from the oposition, don't get cocky after your run.

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06-20-2004, 11:23 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleHossa
The Flames do obstruct, it's not just about good skaters, it's about eliminating talent and creativity from the oposition, don't get cocky after your run.
I assume your an Ottawa fan (and so am i) but if Ottawa would have skated without the puck on defense and not let Toronto free wheel ...they would have beat the leafs easily. The only time the lazy turds skated was when on offense.

At least the Flames skated north-south for 60 minutes so its easy to get cocky and proud

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Old
06-20-2004, 11:28 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
... Calgary (except maybe the latter part of the finals when they started to wear down) doesn't obstruct alot ...
Calgary doesn't obstruct much more than any other NHL team. Between the blue lines, they're just about like everyone else. However, they do run an incredible amount of non-obstruction interference against breakouts and dump-ins. Lots of picks, too.

In any case, back to the original post, comparing obstruction now to 10 years ago kind of misses the point. It's been really bad for a while. Go back a little further and you'll start to see huge differences. There's no question it's as bad now as it has ever been. Especially in the post-season.

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Old
06-20-2004, 11:35 PM
  #14
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
To an extent, every single team in the league plays at least some level of obstruction, but Calgary (except maybe the latter part of the finals when they started to wear down) doesn't obstruct alot... and as much as I hate the Oilers, Leafs and Canucks, neither of the 3 play a clutch-and-grab game.

Teams that don't skate, like Detriot, need some way to slow down quicker teams and dispite their immense talent, Detriot in lacking in the area of quickness.
Actually, while Detroit has been more of an offender this year, they weren't one of the worse, IMO. Plus it is very recent in their case. I know they've had a bad reputation for a few years but IMO they were one of the teams that really used skills to their advantage.

There was a time where they were outskating almost every other team. But they have aged significantly and their D is slower than it used to.

As for the comments by Burke: I think clutch and grab was slightly more in use 10 years ago. The reason is, the role players on teams were not as well-rounded. Many were poor skaters and refereeing was a bit more lenient.

There's still a lot of improvements to be made but at least we are going (very slowly) in the right direction.

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06-20-2004, 11:38 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T@T
I assume your an Ottawa fan (and so am i) but if Ottawa would have skated without the puck on defense and not let Toronto free wheel ...they would have beat the leafs easily. The only time the lazy turds skated was when on offense.

At least the Flames skated north-south for 60 minutes so its easy to get cocky and proud
So besides attacking my team, which really has nothing to do with this discussion, you have nothing to say. Really classy of you, any other attacks about the Sens losing in the first rounds to prove your point about Calgary not obstructing?

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Old
06-21-2004, 12:02 AM
  #16
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I actually think obstruction isn't as bad as it was maybe 4-5 years ago, but it is still terrible compared to the early-90s and before. I think part of it was a reaction to the high-flying 80s. I am just old enough to have seen the end of that era, and it was almost a different game. The late-90s seems to have been the height of clutch-and-grab, slog it out hockey. Then again, I mostly remember the Flyers and Devils from that period, so maybe my memory is clouded.

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Old
06-21-2004, 12:07 AM
  #17
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Yes- EVERY team does it and to say this team or that team does it more than another is really irrelevant. It's employed by every team as a means of slowing down better players and is a big problem in the game. As some analysts have said, blame expansion and the over-dispersal of real top-flite talent. Also line-matching, granted there are some fleet-footed 4th liners but often one of the 3 is not going to be able to skate with his asssignment.

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06-21-2004, 01:43 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeminus
Calgary doesn't obstruct much more than any other NHL team. Between the blue lines, they're just about like everyone else. However, they do run an incredible amount of non-obstruction interference against breakouts and dump-ins. Lots of picks, too.

In any case, back to the original post, comparing obstruction now to 10 years ago kind of misses the point. It's been really bad for a while. Go back a little further and you'll start to see huge differences. There's no question it's as bad now as it has ever been. Especially in the post-season.
What's the problem with non-obstruction interference and picks?

Would all-star game's suit the NHL any better?

Difference is back then, players weren't great skaters, and most couldn't skate backwards. Now, there are systems and plays, worked picks and coverage that makes everyone think its clutch-and-grab.

For instance, Minnisota is pretty good speed, but when people talk about Minnisota, they talk about clutch-and-grab, which should NOT be confused with the neutral zone trap. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

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06-21-2004, 01:47 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven25
Yes- EVERY team does it and to say this team or that team does it more than another is really irrelevant. It's employed by every team as a means of slowing down better players and is a big problem in the game. As some analysts have said, blame expansion and the over-dispersal of real top-flite talent. Also line-matching, granted there are some fleet-footed 4th liners but often one of the 3 is not going to be able to skate with his asssignment.
Actually, (Shanahan?) said the 3rd and 4th liners coming from Europe are better than ever.

Point and case for my team... Donovan and Clark, a couple of grinders who can skate with anybody in the league. In fact, Donovan may not be a sniper, but he's probably one of the fastest players in the league. But because he's not a scorer, people seem to relate him and Clark as a "clutch-and-grab" player.

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06-21-2004, 01:48 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleHossa
The Flames do obstruct, it's not just about good skaters, it's about eliminating talent and creativity from the oposition, don't get cocky after your run.
Somehow, because *my* team has success, I'm cocky that they don't... clutch and grab?

Excuse me?

I'm not talking about types of plan, I'm talking about systems.

If you're going to dish a personal attack, at least make it related to something to do the the topic. I just finished saying that Edmonton (rival that didn't make the playoffs) and Vancouver (1st round exit0 were non-clutch and grab teams, but somehow, I'm cocky by saying the Flames don't do such.

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Old
06-21-2004, 08:18 AM
  #21
shadoz19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
The league will ALWAYS have bad teams

BTW, isn't one of the so-called "best teamss in the league" in the Detriot Red Wings, considered to be the biggest offender in the clutch-and-grab game of hockey?

Saddledome=Rodeo


Detroit was forced to play the obstrution game with Calgary when the refs didn't call crap. They just didn't have as much practice at it as Calgary.

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Old
06-21-2004, 08:34 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
What's the problem with non-obstruction interference and picks?
What is non-obstruction interference? If you obstruct someone with out the puck, it's interference.

Quote:
(a) A minor penalty shall be imposed on a player who interferes with or impedes the progress of an opponent who is not in possession of the puck.

(b) A minor penalty shall be imposed on a player who restrains an opponent who is attempting to "forecheck."

(NOTE 1) Obstruction:
Obstruction shall be defined as any tactic by a player who attempts to or who restrains an opponent who is not in possession of the puck, or who physically prevents an opponent from moving freely in the direction he wishes to go. The term "obstruction" shall be used coupled with the appropriate foul (holding, hooking, interference, tripping) when the obstruction offence occurs in the neutral zone.

(NOTE 2) Body Position:
Body position shall be determined as the player skating in front of or beside his opponent, traveling in the same direction. A player who is behind an opponent, who does not have the puck, may not use his stick, body or free hand in order to restrain his opponent, but must skate in order to gain or reestablish his proper position in order to make a check. Failure to do so may result in an obstruction penalty being assessed.

(NOTE 5) Pick:
A "pick" is the action of a player who checks an opponent who is not in possession of the puck and is unaware of the impending check/hit. A player who is aware of an impending hit, not deemed to be a legal "battle for the puck," may not be interfered with by a player delivering a "pick." A player delivering a "pick" is one who moves into an opponent's path without initially having body position, thereby taking him out of the play. When this is done, an interference penalty shall be assessed.
The problem is the NHL quit reading this book about 7 years ago and the playoffs this season proved it.

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06-21-2004, 08:36 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadoz19
Saddledome=Rodeo


Detroit was forced to play the obstrution game with Calgary when the refs didn't call crap. They just didn't have as much practice at it as Calgary.
If Detroit didn't clutch and grab and clog the neutral zone they would not have made it by Nashville.

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06-21-2004, 08:56 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Leafs,... neither of the 3 play a clutch-and-grab game.
well thats wrong, I can beleive someone said that.

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Old
06-21-2004, 11:05 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash13
Still bitter... Flames are no worse nor better than any team in this league. Every team does it, including your beloved Canucks. Winning teams fight through it, and losers use it as an excuse.
It's a shame they are forced to fight through it.

The section of the rulebook CBA Watcher quoted also serves as the "How to" guide for playoff hockey for some teams, and as was mentioned, their opponents are forced into it if they want to win.

I'll respectfully disagree with Mr. Burke. While that may have been true for the bad teams, even the mediocre teams played a more wide-open style.

You watch the Finals this year, and then you see Finals games on tape or on ESPN Classic and the styles are completely different. They were actually skating in the old days.

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