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The asking price on Fisher is 1st + top prospect

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Old
02-03-2011, 12:38 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Kings have a number of players they have to re-sign in the off-season. Having Fisher @ $4.2 million will make that alot more difficult. IMHO, it's more his cap hit/contract that's the problem - not the asking price.
Yeah and I'll let Lombardi make that call, not the people in this forum (not all of you). At some point though for Lombardi...getting into the playoffs this year and competing could be his job. Not saying Fisher is the guy....but at some point the Kings might have to do something a little desperate....and this is where GMs having high asking prices comes from...because you know jobs are stake out there and players who can help now can be overvalued over futures.

Maybe the guy makes a decision to take on a contract at the expense of resigning a guy like Wayne Simmonds....worst case...Simmonds (RFA) gets traded for something in the off-season. Just an example.

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02-03-2011, 12:38 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
If this is true, good for Murray. There's no need to trade Fisher. he's only 30, signed and allegedly likes it in Ottawa. He's a 50 point centre who can play the powerplay, kill penalties, hit, fight and play against the other team's top players.

It doesn't make sense to settle for anything less than two top prospects. I haven't actually looked into it but how many bottom third first round picks have a career equal to or better than Mike Fisher's over the past 15 years? I'd guess less than half.

*edit*

After taking a quick look at the 95, 96, 97 and 98 draft years, roughly 1 or 2 guys have had better careers than Mike Fisher has had (pointwise and games played) per season.
there is a big difference between a 50 point Center, and a Center that once in his career hit 50 points.

If he had ever been able to stay healthy for a full season, he'd be a 50 point center (who may have hit 60 points once).

I like Fisher, and personally think he's Ottawa's best player overall. Spezza is more talented, but, he's not a better player. ...still not worth a 1st and a top prospect, but, easily worth either one OR the other ...or a combo to a lesser extent.

a 2nd and an above average prospect at the minimum.

...but, put prospects in the proper light. Toronto got the Pens #2 prospect in Luca Caputi, and he pretty much is borderline to ever become a full time NHLer (on any line) ...so, sometimes a teams top prospect doesnt really mean much.

He may be that teams top prospect, but, in the big picture, he can still suck.

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02-03-2011, 12:38 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
So a desperate team that needs wins and has tons of prospects anyways....will wait on Mr. late 1st rounder for 2-3 years to either become a player as good as Fisher or better...or just as possible, worse...in expense of losing his job or missing the playoffs....or being more likely to lose in the 1st round.

Fisher's a good play...if he's your 3rd line center....and you stay healthy...you're probably a very deep team.
So you'd give up a first round pick and a top prospect for a third line center? Any team that's that desperate probably isn't a real cup contender, anyway, so they shouldn't be paying a king's ransom for a role player, no matter how good that role player is (and Fisher is a very good two-way forward).

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And the habs made it to the conference finals. Maybe, just maybe you're not as smart as you think you are. How'd the Rangers do last year, btw? And this year?
Maybe I'm not, but at least I'm smart enough not to make statements like this and pass them off as having anything to do with the point in question. The Rangers are a mediocre franchise in the middle of a massive retooling, and the biggest reason they're a mediocre franchise is because they acquired players like Gomez. Not only did MTL do the Rangers an enormous favor and move the process of the Rangers' retool along, but they actually gave them a great asset, as well, all while saddling themselves with perhaps the quintessential example of the phrase "no hockey sense" (or, in other words, one of the league's dumbest players and biggest wastes of talent) and one of the worst contracts in the league. See, just because players play for my favorite team, doesn't mean that I have to blind myself to the reality of the situation. That's why my opinion on Gomez is the same today as it was before he was a Ranger and when he was a Ranger.

BTW, the Habs got to the conference finals in spite of Gomez, not because of him, in much the same way that the Rangers some how managed to win games here and there in spite of him, not because of him. And, obviously, that run to the conference finals really proved how valuable Gomez is and how good the Habs are, because it's clear that they're going back again this year, right? It's clear that they're one of the four best teams in the league, right?

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02-03-2011, 12:39 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by HawksTillDeath View Post
i can see a team doing 1 or the both, but not both

a 1st round pick and a low-end prospect is probably the best option
if chicago could fit him in (which i dont think they can) i can see a 1st and lalonde going
If you have no forward prospects to offer, the talks wont continue.

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02-03-2011, 12:40 PM
  #180
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Ottawa:
New Jersey's 2nd
Cal O'Reilly

Nashville:
Mike Fisher

Poile would never do it, but that's as close to a 1st as they'd get. I like Fisher even at his price tag, and it'd be good insurance in case Lombardi's problem continues into next season.

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02-03-2011, 12:42 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
So you'd give up a first round pick and a top prospect for a third line center? Any team that's that desperate probably isn't a real cup contender, anyway, so they shouldn't be paying a king's ransom for a role player, no matter how good that role player is (and Fisher is a very good two-way forward).
No but if I was a GM, and that player was currently my 2nd line center...and was my 2nd line center in a Cup run, he wears an A, is one of the fan favourites...yeah I'd start at asking for that. Murray's in no desperation to trade Fisher, make that clear.

There's several teams in the league Fisher could play 2nd line center for, kill on the 1st unit...and find a role infront of the net on a 1st unit PP or somewhere on the 2nd unit. If he becomes the teams 3rd line center at even strength...it probably means that team will be very very strong down the middle.

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02-03-2011, 12:43 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Yeah and I'll let Lombardi make that call, not the people in this forum (not all of you). At some point though for Lombardi...getting into the playoffs this year and competing could be his job. Not saying Fisher is the guy....but at some point the Kings might have to do something a little desperate....and this is where GMs having high asking prices comes from...because you know jobs are stake out there and players who can help now can be overvalued over futures.

Maybe the guy makes a decision to take on a contract at the expense of resigning a guy like Wayne Simmonds....worst case...Simmonds (RFA) gets traded for something in the off-season. Just an example.
I'm guessing if Lombardi "blinks" - it'll be for the already mentioned goal scoring winger (have no idea who's available). A package of a 1st round pick + top prospect should get them somebody pretty solid (even if it's for a player on a pending UFA). They (Kings) seem pretty deep down the middle (granted, I don't follow that team all that closely).

The Kings going for a rental would address the issue you brought up (add help to make the playoffs) while not handcuffing the team in future years. As well, I suspect the price would come cheaper than a 1st round pick + top prospect.


Last edited by Barney Gumble: 02-03-2011 at 12:50 PM.
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02-03-2011, 12:52 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
No but if I was a GM, and that player was currently my 2nd line center...and was my 2nd line center in a Cup run, he wears an A, is one of the fan favourites...yeah I'd start at asking for that. Murray's in no desperation to trade Fisher, make that clear.
But, see, IMO, he is desperate to trade him (and he should be). And if he isn't interested in trading him, then he shouldn't (and wouldn't) be letting info like this leak. Remember, this isn't Eklund, it's Dreger. IMO, I think the Sens should get rid of everyone except Spezza and Karlsson and start over. They've been a relatively successful franchise for a long time, but this league is cyclical, and it's time for them to face facts and start over. It'll only benefit them in the long run. Part of that process needs to be moving Fisher, even if it's only for a reasonable price (like a second round pick and a mid-level prospect, perhaps).

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There's several teams in the league Fisher could play 2nd line center for, kill on the 1st unit...and find a role infront of the net on a 1st unit PP or somewhere on the 2nd unit. If he becomes the teams 3rd line center at even strength...it probably means that team will be very very strong down the middle.
I'm not disagreeing with any of this, but I still wouldn't give up a top prospect and a first round pick for this luxury. It's just poor teambuilding.

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02-03-2011, 12:52 PM
  #184
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Isn't the classic tactic of a retailer making "clearance" sale items to mark up the price at the outset so someone actually thinks they are getting a deal later when the transaction is finally complete? Seems similar in this case....

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02-03-2011, 12:53 PM
  #185
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What's the asking price for Spezza then? Baby Jesus and a 1st rounder?

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02-03-2011, 12:54 PM
  #186
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Murray is fully within his right to set the price however high he likes, but he's deluded if he thinks there will be nibbles at that price. I'm not sure he has any interest in moving this player.

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02-03-2011, 12:57 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
No but if I was a GM, and that player was currently my 2nd line center...and was my 2nd line center in a Cup run, he wears an A, is one of the fan favourites...yeah I'd start at asking for that. Murray's in no desperation to trade Fisher, make that clear.

There's several teams in the league Fisher could play 2nd line center for, kill on the 1st unit...and find a role infront of the net on a 1st unit PP or somewhere on the 2nd unit. If he becomes the teams 3rd line center at even strength...it probably means that team will be very very strong down the middle.
Not disagreeing with the bolded, but realistically, the teams that he would be a 2nd line center probably aren't legit Cup Contenders anyway, and therefore most likely not handing over major assets at the deadline. Fisher is a really solid 3rd line center on a contending team, but he makes $4.2 million, and good GM's just don't fork over packages like a 1st and high end prospect so that they can pay their 3rd line center that kind of money.

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02-03-2011, 12:58 PM
  #188
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What's the asking price for Spezza then? Baby Jesus and a 1st rounder?
Probably a deal around a future top line center. Now you can understand why hasn't and will probably not be traded. Only one team makes any sense for Spezza and it's Columbus...and chances are it doesn't happen.

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02-03-2011, 01:01 PM
  #189
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I never realized Dreger worked for the Sens.

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02-03-2011, 01:01 PM
  #190
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Murray is fully within his right to set the price however high he likes, but he's deluded if he thinks there will be nibbles at that price. I'm not sure he has any interest in moving this player.
I agree with this. It really doesn't sound like he is seriously considering any offers. Maybe he was being lowballed for Mike Fisher, and wanted to set the record straight that he wouldn't be suckered into a bad deal?

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02-03-2011, 01:04 PM
  #191
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It's a rough time to try and get full value back for Senators at the moment. I'm not sure I'd make too many save-my-job sorts of moves, in Murray's shoes. The best he could do for the Senators organization is conceivably to hold until the summer and then retire. How much value are you going to get for Fisher or Gonchar or Spezza after the kinds of years they've had so far? Only Alfredsson might transcend his current season stats because of the esteem in which he is held around the league. In most likely deals, Murray is looking at getting pennies on the dollar.

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02-03-2011, 01:04 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
1. But, see, IMO, he is desperate to trade him (and he should be). And if he isn't interested in trading him, then he shouldn't (and wouldn't) be letting info like this leak. Remember, this isn't Eklund, it's Dreger. IMO, I think the Sens should get rid of everyone except Spezza and Karlsson and start over. They've been a relatively successful franchise for a long time, but this league is cyclical, and it's time for them to face facts and start over. It'll only benefit them in the long run. Part of that process needs to be moving Fisher, even if it's only for a reasonable price (like a second round pick and a mid-level prospect, perhaps).

Ottawa's got gaping holes beside Spezza, and in between the pipes. Fisher is not a hole, he's just average at his spot. They can improve if solutions are found between the net (UFA?) and if that top 5 pick either gives us a top line center (him and Spezza) or a guy that can notch 35 goals annually beside Spezza (Landeskog?). Karlsson, Rundblad, Cowen all in next year's lineup.

What I'm saying is, we're not killing to move Fisher. But if a team has enough interest to force us...we're all ears. If not, we'll keep him.


2. I'm not disagreeing with any of this, but I still wouldn't give up a top prospect and a first round pick for this luxury. It's just poor teambuilding.
1. Ownership calls the shots. If Murray said, well this trade is okay but do we really want to put Regin at 2nd line C next year and risk being a gongshow like this again? Melnyk says...no....we need to be better next year. There's enough changes coming anyways with young players and a top 5 pick that they may reason like this.

2. A desperate person may, or may come close. This is negotiation. Every team puts different value on their prospects and picks based on what they already have. For example, assuming Ryan Johansen and Brayden Schenn have identical careers hypothetically, RJs value to Columbus is MUCH GREATER then Schenn's is to LA. Not saying Schenn will be moved...just saying Johansen absolutely won't be.

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02-03-2011, 01:08 PM
  #193
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Not disagreeing with the bolded, but realistically, the teams that he would be a 2nd line center probably aren't legit Cup Contenders anyway, and therefore most likely not handing over major assets at the deadline. Fisher is a really solid 3rd line center on a contending team, but he makes $4.2 million, and good GM's just don't fork over packages like a 1st and high end prospect so that they can pay their 3rd line center that kind of money.
I agree with what you're saying except for the bolded part. It is ridiculous to pay a 3rd line centre 4.2M, no arguments there. And chances are contending teams have pretty solid depth. But some contending teams could easily fit Fisher into their top two lines if they were to send Ottawa equal salary. For example, Chicago could move Sharp to the wing, and Fisher could play 2nd line centre. Detroit could play Zetterberg and Datsyuk could play on the top line together, and allow Fisher to take second line centre. I'm not sure if these moves fit the team needs, but my point is if a team wants him, they can find a way to give him 2nd line minutes.

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02-03-2011, 01:10 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
1. Ownership calls the shots. If Murray said, well this trade is okay but do we really want to put Regin at 2nd line C next year and risk being a gongshow like this again? Melnyk says...no....we need to be better next year. There's enough changes coming anyways with young players and a top 5 pick that they may reason like this.
Then they're idiots. If that's the case, then Melnyk doesn't understand the way the league works and is going to force Murray into turning the Sens into a mediocre team for the next 5-8 years. As a Ranger fan, let me tell you, that's not fun. I doubt anyone there is dumb enough to think someone will pay this ante for Fisher.

Quote:
2. A desperate person may, or may come close. This is negotiation. Every team puts different value on their prospects and picks based on what they already have. For example, assuming Ryan Johansen and Brayden Schenn have identical careers hypothetically, RJs value to Columbus is MUCH GREATER then Schenn's is to LA. Not saying Schenn will be moved...just saying Johansen absolutely won't be.
Let's make a friendly bet that no one will pay this price for him. Honestly, I hope I'm wrong because it'd be ****ing hilarious if some team (other than the Rangers that is, not that they would do this, they don't trade away first round picks at the deadline) made a blunder this bad, but I just can't see anyone dumb enough to do it. I'll put it to you this way, as a Ranger fan, I would never expect anyone to give a top prospect and a first round pick for Anisimov, who is already a very good defensive center and PKer who will almost certainly reach Fisher's level of offense within the next season or two. And he's significantly younger and cheaper.

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02-03-2011, 01:14 PM
  #195
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Way to high for the asking price.

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02-03-2011, 01:14 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post

Let's make a friendly bet that no one will pay this price for him.
Honestly, I hope I'm wrong because it'd be ****ing hilarious if some team (other than the Rangers that is, not that they would do this, they don't trade away first round picks at the deadline) made a blunder this bad, but I just can't see anyone dumb enough to do it. I'll put it to you this way, as a Ranger fan, I would never expect anyone to give a top prospect and a first round pick for Anisimov, who is already a very good defensive center and PKer who will almost certainly reach Fisher's level of offense within the next season or two. And he's significantly younger and cheaper.
I'd bet you Fisher remains in Ottawa. But he remains a potential trade piece for the rest of his contract. Depends what we move leading up to deadline....

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02-03-2011, 01:15 PM
  #197
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Way to high for the asking price.
What's the asking price for Jordan Staal?

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02-03-2011, 01:15 PM
  #198
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This is the problem when people try to fully evaluate trade value here on HF...they only discuss it in a vacuum. Trade value has to account for everything, not just stats (as many have point out...which his are not great), but overall play (which is better than his stats), and salary (which is more than he's worth). When you factor in all those things (plus others like intangibles, durability, leadership, team needs and willing trade partners, etc.) then you can paint a picture of a guy's worth.

Fisher is a good player, but at $4.2 million he needs to be more than a decent two-way grinder on your third line if you're going to start offering up a 1st and a high end prospect. It ain't happening.
There's guys on the Ottawa board who routinely post the range of points by a 2nd line center in the NHL, and if im not mistaken fisher falls in the middle.
Strictly points wise he is very much better than hlaf of the 2nd line centers in the NHL, and that's not really even where his value lies since its his toughness, shot blocking, fearsome hitting and playoff intensity that are his stongest points.

People here are under the mistaken impression that most 2nd line centers in the NHL put up 60-70 plus points.
they dont, there arent very many Malkin's playing 2nd fiddle in the league.

So given that Fisher IS in fact a 2nd line center based on stats alone, and then given the strengths of his game are actually the kind that every team can always use more of in the playoffs.
why is it exactly that he's not a valuable 2nd line center?

Everyone is ridiculing this hypothetical "demand" by Murray by saying he's a 3rd line center.
If he is then he's either the best or 2nd best one in the league behind Staal.

Admittedly he's having a down year, but have a look at the team...he's still going to get 20 goals - so he's down a couple there and his assists are down since scoring on the whole for Ottawa is down over 35%

i dont particularly care if you dont want Fisher, im happy to see ottawa keep him, he's only 30 and has another 5 or 6 years of high level hockey left and his salary is in line with similar players/position. Is it a deal or a steal? no, is it an outrage? hardly.

This place is full of morons, im not even sure why many of you bother when you know or care to know so little about the topic you appear to be outraged about.

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02-03-2011, 01:16 PM
  #199
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I'd bet you Fisher remains in Ottawa. But he remains a potential trade piece for the rest of his contract. Depends what we move leading up to deadline....
I'm not interested in making that bet, because the Sens are incompetent enough right now to keep him. I hope he does. That would mean one less team the Rangers would have to worry about as far as contenders go for the next while.

If they're smart, they'll move him for the most they can get, as they should with nearly everyone else, and get moving on rebuilding a franchise sorely in need of it.

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02-03-2011, 01:17 PM
  #200
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What's the asking price for Spezza then? Baby Jesus and a 1st rounder?


And a 1st.

I hope someone gets this

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