HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

The asking price on Fisher is 1st + top prospect

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-03-2011, 01:19 PM
  #201
Wondercarrot
Stone, Mr.
 
Wondercarrot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,354
vCash: 500
just to clarify, Neely i was not talking directly to you in the last couple of paragraphs - it just ended up there.

Wondercarrot is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:25 PM
  #202
Minister of Offence
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 24,072
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I'm not interested in making that bet, because the Sens are incompetent enough right now to keep him. I hope he does. That would mean one less team the Rangers would have to worry about as far as contenders go for the next while.

If they're smart, they'll move him for the most they can get, as they should with nearly everyone else, and get moving on rebuilding a franchise sorely in need of it.
Spezza
Fisher
Couturier down the middle as soon as next year, or RNH....or Landeskog beside Spezza at some point.

Plus Karlsson, Rundblad, Cowen all developing 21 and unders. All with top 3 D potential atleast.

If any of the UFA goalies hit the market and the Sens make a point to not give one of them the choice to turn them down with 5-6 mil over 3 years you'd be surprised at how competitive they could be with a coaching change....and management changes on top. And developing...with around 7-8 players at 24 and under.

Minister of Offence is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:26 PM
  #203
WreckItRask
Registered User
 
WreckItRask's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Minnesota
Country: United States
Posts: 7,145
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMONT View Post
I agree with what you're saying except for the bolded part. It is ridiculous to pay a 3rd line centre 4.2M, no arguments there. And chances are contending teams have pretty solid depth. But some contending teams could easily fit Fisher into their top two lines if they were to send Ottawa equal salary. For example, Chicago could move Sharp to the wing, and Fisher could play 2nd line centre. Detroit could play Zetterberg and Datsyuk could play on the top line together, and allow Fisher to take second line centre. I'm not sure if these moves fit the team needs, but my point is if a team wants him, they can find a way to give him 2nd line minutes.
I think you're missing my point. My point is that if Mike Fisher is your 2nd line center, then you're probably not a Stanley Cup Contender. He's had 2nd line minutes every year since the lockout (playing with some solid linemates in that stretch), yet he's only topped 50 points once in that span. Typically, your top 2 centers if you expect to contend need to produce offense at a much higher level than the high 40's/low 50's in terms of points. Teams like Detroit and Chicago aren't going to start shuffling guys like Sharp, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg around to fit Mike Fisher into their top 6. Makes no sense.

Mike Fisher is a very good 3rd line center, but if you're acquiring him to man your 2nd line, then you're most likely not going to be a legitimate contender. He just doesn't produce enough offense to fill that role, and most teams don't want to offer top dollar for a 3rd line center making $4.2million/year.

People need to disassociate ability with trade value to a certain extent. They're two completely different things. Mike Fisher is a good player and would be a great 3rd liner on a good team, but that doesn't mean his trade value is commensurate with what he brings to the ice every night. He makes a lot of money for a 3rd line center, and a 3rd line center is a what he is on a contending team.

WreckItRask is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:28 PM
  #204
Oates2Neely
Registered User
 
Oates2Neely's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: BeanTown
Country: Azores
Posts: 8,594
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely06 View Post
Not disagreeing with the bolded, but realistically, the teams that he would be a 2nd line center probably aren't legit Cup Contenders anyway, and therefore most likely not handing over major assets at the deadline. Fisher is a really solid 3rd line center on a contending team, but he makes $4.2 million, and good GM's just don't fork over packages like a 1st and high end prospect so that they can pay their 3rd line center that kind of money.
Im not an advocate of it either.. However Pitt pays their #1 $8.5m, #2 $8.5m, #3 $4m.. & it got them a Cup. Center depth is crucial imo. Will Chia go into playoffs w/ Wheeler or Seguin at 3rd line center?? Or Campbell for that matter.. I hope not. If Chia acquired Fisher, he'd be paying our top 3 centers a combined $12.5m.. Thats still $8.5m total less than Pitts centers combined. Maybe Fisher isn't the answer, but who else is out there?

Considering Chia gave up a mid 1st + Wideman for a 2nd line winger (Horton), I think it's fair to suggest that Fishers value is somewhere around a late 1st & 'project' prospect such as Hamill.

Oates2Neely is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:30 PM
  #205
vipernsx
Flatus Expeller
 
vipernsx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 6,529
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
Just said that on TSN... wonder if there are teams willing to pay that
Brian Murray has offended the league.

vipernsx is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:30 PM
  #206
NYR Sting
Heart and Soul
 
NYR Sting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 9,506
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Spezza
Fisher
Couturier down the middle as soon as next year, or RNH....or Landeskog beside Spezza at some point.

Plus Karlsson, Rundblad, Cowen all developing 21 and unders. All with top 3 D potential atleast.

If any of the UFA goalies hit the market and the Sens make a point to not give one of them the choice to turn them down with 5-6 mil over 3 years you'd be surprised at how competitive they could be with a coaching change....and management changes on top. And developing...with around 7-8 players at 24 and under.
Do you want your team to be competitive or to build towards being a contender? Make no mistake, I have no bias against the Sens. They're not a rival to the Rangers, and I have nothing more against them than I do most Eastern Conference teams (Atlantic Division clubs and Toronto and Montreal aside).

If I was a Sens fan, I'd be clamoring for a total rebuild. The last thing I'd want is to try and be "competitive" next year. That's a recipe for disaster, or at least my version of disaster, which is being a 6-11 seed team every year for half a decade.

NYR Sting is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:31 PM
  #207
Minister of Offence
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 24,072
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely06 View Post
People need to disassociate ability with trade value to a certain extent. They're two completely different things. Mike Fisher is a good player and would be a great 3rd liner on a good team, but that doesn't mean his trade value is commensurate with what he brings to the ice every night. He makes a lot of money for a 3rd line center, and a 3rd line center is a what he is on a contending team.
Most likely. And there might be a couple teams that think Fisher as there 3rd line C makes them a finished product, if they can fit it economically.

Fisher was the 2nd line C on a team that went to the Cup Final. But keep in mind, that team was carried by the best line in hockey at the time.

Minister of Offence is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:35 PM
  #208
Sterling31
YNWA - TML
 
Sterling31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oshawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,658
vCash: 50
who would do it?

NewJersey -> nope, 1st(likely top 3)
Edmonton -> nope, 1st (likely top 3)
NYI -> nope, 1st(likely top 3) and they will keep the prospects.
Florida -> likely not, (1st will get them a good enough prospect)
Toronto -> nope, no first (and wont move next years)
CLB, CALG, BUF-> Maybe, but likely not. (top 10 1st rnder)


And the teams above in the standings have a capable 1st line C. or are not willing to move for a somewhat expensive 2nd liner.

Sterling31 is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:35 PM
  #209
WreckItRask
Registered User
 
WreckItRask's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Minnesota
Country: United States
Posts: 7,145
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Im not an advocate of it either.. However Pitt pays their #1 $8.5m, #2 $8.5m, #3 $4m.. & it got them a Cup. Center depth is crucial imo. Will Chia go into playoffs w/ Wheeler or Seguin at 3rd line center?? Or Campbell for that matter.. I hope not. If Chia acquired Fisher, he'd be paying our top 3 centers a combined $12.5m.. Thats still $8.5m total less than Pitts centers combined. Maybe Fisher isn't the answer, but who else is out there?
I'm not against Fisher's salary per se (although he's a little overpaid), nor am I against paying your 3rd line center decent money if he's the right fit. I'm against having give up a 1st and high end prospect and then have to pay your 3rd line center $4.2 million. It's the combination of those two things that I wouldn't do.

I don't think Ottawa would trade Fisher for an underpayment, but I don't think many teams would overpay for him given his salary. Something would have to give for him to get moved.

WreckItRask is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:37 PM
  #210
Minister of Offence
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 24,072
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post

If I was a Sens fan, I'd be clamoring for a total rebuild. The last thing I'd want is to try and be "competitive" next year. That's a recipe for disaster, or at least my version of disaster, which is being a 6-11 seed team every year for half a decade.
They could be more competitive next year while developing into the seasons after that. They should be more competitive this year. Clouston has lost the team, Spezza's injury created the free-fall, they were competitive with basically the same roster last season.

They have enough young players coming in to make possible to continue developing. A goalie is needed badly, they have a first line C....just might get another one to play 2nd line...and they have 3 Dmen who could be top pairing players in time. If David Rundblad translates next year you're looking at a PK Subban clone...Rundblad's currently on a march, at 20, to having one of the top 10 highest point producing season's by a Dmen in SEL history. And you could probably see why if you watch one of his pre-NHL videos on youtube from his 19 year old season. He's not a little guy either that's flourishing on small ice, he's 6'2 200 and carving the SEL offensively.

The player that has most contributed to suckage...has been Kuba, basically every game since coming back from injury...he's been out of the lineup for most of the past two seasons. The other player? Kovalev, also gone. Don't underestimate how much Ottawa can improve by dropping those two clowns.

Minister of Offence is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:41 PM
  #211
TMONT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 155
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely06 View Post
I think you're missing my point. My point is that if Mike Fisher is your 2nd line center, then you're probably not a Stanley Cup Contender. He's had 2nd line minutes every year since the lockout (playing with some solid linemates in that stretch), yet he's only topped 50 points once in that span. Typically, your top 2 centers if you expect to contend need to produce offense at a much higher level than the high 40's/low 50's in terms of points. Teams like Detroit and Chicago aren't going to start shuffling guys like Sharp, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg around to fit Mike Fisher into their top 6. Makes no sense.

Mike Fisher is a very good 3rd line center, but if you're acquiring him to man your 2nd line, then you're most likely not going to be a legitimate contender. He just doesn't produce enough offense to fill that role, and most teams don't want to offer top dollar for a 3rd line center making $4.2million/year.

People need to disassociate ability with trade value to a certain extent. They're two completely different things. Mike Fisher is a good player and would be a great 3rd liner on a good team, but that doesn't mean his trade value is commensurate with what he brings to the ice every night. He makes a lot of money for a 3rd line center, and a 3rd line center is a what he is on a contending team.
I hear what you're saying, and I think what Fisher brings is good enough to be a 2nd line centre on a contending team. He hasn't played with extremely skilled players in the past, and last year he definitely didn't and it was his highest producing season. He brings much more than scoring as most Sens fans will tell you, but the combination of his abilities make him a dependable 2nd line centre on a contending team. I honestly don't think the price is as much of an issue as the length of the contract remaining. Since he has 2 more years left on his contract after this year, it becomes a more long term commitment that some teams likely aren't willing to make.

TMONT is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:43 PM
  #212
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 20,502
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
Murray is senile if he thinks he's offered that...or....I see what he did there.
I thought that was widely known

417 is online now  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:45 PM
  #213
Oates2Neely
Registered User
 
Oates2Neely's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: BeanTown
Country: Azores
Posts: 8,594
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely06 View Post
I'm not against Fisher's salary per se (although he's a little overpaid), nor am I against paying your 3rd line center decent money if he's the right fit. I'm against having give up a 1st and high end prospect and then have to pay your 3rd line center $4.2 million. It's the combination of those two things that I wouldn't do.

I don't think Ottawa would trade Fisher for an underpayment, but I don't think many teams would overpay for him given his salary. Something would have to give for him to get moved.
Agreed. I just no longer consider Hamill a high end prospect. If they ask for Colborne, Caron or Sauve then no deal ofcourse. Hamill? mehhh..

I do find myself being quite charitable w/ Boston 1st round picks however this yr & last.. I've got to snap out of it. Damn Burke.

Oates2Neely is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:45 PM
  #214
Wondercarrot
Stone, Mr.
 
Wondercarrot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely06 View Post
I'm not against Fisher's salary per se (although he's a little overpaid), nor am I against paying your 3rd line center decent money if he's the right fit. I'm against having give up a 1st and high end prospect and then have to pay your 3rd line center $4.2 million. It's the combination of those two things that I wouldn't do.

I don't think Ottawa would trade Fisher for an underpayment, but I don't think many teams would overpay for him given his salary. Something would have to give for him to get moved.
i think for the most part you are right with your posts, but it only really takes 1 team to decide they like/need what Fisher brings - there arent too many of them available.
He's a pretty flexible player and yes i agree that on an elite team he's probably not your 2nd line center, what he is however is a guy who can dominate against the opposition as your 3rd center and easily move around the roster to accomodate matchups throughout the playoffs.

IMO he is far less valuable on a non playoff team than he is a playoff contender.
he was ottawa's best player after Alfie in the finals a few years ago.
the playoffs are really Fisher's kind of game.

Wondercarrot is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:47 PM
  #215
Barney Gumble
Registered User
 
Barney Gumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 22,034
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Im not an advocate of it either.. However Pitt pays their #1 $8.5m, #2 $8.5m, #3 $4m.. & it got them a Cup. Center depth is crucial imo. Will Chia go into playoffs w/ Wheeler or Seguin at 3rd line center?? Or Campbell for that matter.. I hope not. If Chia acquired Fisher, he'd be paying our top 3 centers a combined $12.5m.. Thats still $8.5m total less than Pitts centers combined. Maybe Fisher isn't the answer, but who else is out there?

Considering Chia gave up a mid 1st + Wideman for a 2nd line winger (Horton), I think it's fair to suggest that Fishers value is somewhere around a late 1st & 'project' prospect such as Hamill.
Kind of helps when Crosby & Malkin are arguably the top two players in the game when they won those Cups doesn't it? Not every team has that kind of luxory.

Barney Gumble is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:51 PM
  #216
Oates2Neely
Registered User
 
Oates2Neely's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: BeanTown
Country: Azores
Posts: 8,594
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Kind of helps when Crosby & Malkin are arguably the top two players in the game when they won those Cups doesn't it? Not every team has that kind of luxory.
Huh? If your team doesnt have luxury of a Crosby or Malkin, then your team has the luxury of not paying $8.5m for its' top 2 centers.

Oates2Neely is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:54 PM
  #217
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 38,569
vCash: 500
Fisher might have barely been worth that at this absolute peak of his career, which he has clearly passed at this point.

Epsilon is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:54 PM
  #218
trentmccleary
Registered User
 
trentmccleary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Alfie-Ville
Posts: 18,932
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Im not an advocate of it either.. However Pitt pays their #1 $8.5m, #2 $8.5m, #3 $4m.. & it got them a Cup. Center depth is crucial imo. Will Chia go into playoffs w/ Wheeler or Seguin at 3rd line center?? Or Campbell for that matter.. I hope not. If Chia acquired Fisher, he'd be paying our top 3 centers a combined $12.5m.. Thats still $8.5m total less than Pitts centers combined. Maybe Fisher isn't the answer, but who else is out there?
Malkin and Staal were on their ELC's making combined base salaries of $1.84M for the two of them during the years Pittsburgh went to the Finals and won the Cup. Crosby also had an $850k base salary in the Cup Finals season.

trentmccleary is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:57 PM
  #219
BigFatCat999
I love GoOoOlD
 
BigFatCat999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Campbell, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 10,618
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Modo View Post
Fisher to Nashville (e5).
Poile aint stupid. He's already got Legwand.

Max I think Nashville would pay for Fisher is 3rd and Tootoo or 3rd/4th liner.

BigFatCat999 is online now  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:57 PM
  #220
TMONT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 155
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Fisher might have barely been worth that at this absolute peak of his career, which he has clearly passed at this point.
???
Did I miss something? Fisher's highest point total was last year...

TMONT is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 01:59 PM
  #221
Dick Whitman
Registered User
 
Dick Whitman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,023
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Fisher might have barely been worth that at this absolute peak of his career, which he has clearly passed at this point.
Clearly. he's a year removed from the highest point total of his career. And no one does anything at the age of 30.

Dick Whitman is online now  
Old
02-03-2011, 02:05 PM
  #222
MrSerious
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,105
vCash: 500
Blackhawks 1st plus Lalonde at the draft?

Next year:

Brouwer-Toews-Kane
Sharp-Fisher-Hossa
Bickell-Bolland-Kopecky(?)
Whoever-Dowell-Whoever


Last edited by MrSerious: 02-03-2011 at 02:11 PM.
MrSerious is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 02:06 PM
  #223
NYR Sting
Heart and Soul
 
NYR Sting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 9,506
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
They have enough young players coming in to make possible to continue developing. A goalie is needed badly, they have a first line C....just might get another one to play 2nd line...and they have 3 Dmen who could be top pairing players in time. If David Rundblad translates next year you're looking at a PK Subban clone...Rundblad's currently on a march, at 20, to having one of the top 10 highest point producing season's by a Dmen in SEL history. And you could probably see why if you watch one of his pre-NHL videos on youtube from his 19 year old season. He's not a little guy either that's flourishing on small ice, he's 6'2 200 and carving the SEL offensively.
I'm plenty familiar with Rundblad, thank you very much. He'll be better than Subban. But none of what you're saying is enough to convince me that the Senators would be best suited to spend at least one more season rebuilding.

Quote:
The player that has most contributed to suckage...has been Kuba, basically every game since coming back from injury...he's been out of the lineup for most of the past two seasons. The other player? Kovalev, also gone. Don't underestimate how much Ottawa can improve by dropping those two clowns.
Not nearly enough to be one of the top 5 or 6 teams in the East.

NYR Sting is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 02:13 PM
  #224
Beukeboom Fan
Registered User
 
Beukeboom Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 12,219
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hale The Villain View Post
Some people don't understand the term asking price.

If Murray wants to get the best deal possible for Fisher he'll start with an extremely high asking price. In return the other team will propose a deal giving us less than he's actually worth, let's say a mediocre prospect + late pick. The teams will settle in the middle. Some team will not respond to a proposal such as this with a yes. It's called negotiating.

In addition the term top prospect is thrown around loosely. For example if the Flames (random team) were interested in Fisher and accepted the above deal. People would think they'd be trading Erixon, their top prospect along with a 1st for Fisher when the "top prospect" could mean a guy like Greg Nemisz or Ryan Howse. Still a major overpayment but it could mean a 4th + Nemisz/Howse after negotiations.

Common sense will tell you Murray isn't expecting getting a 1st + top prospect in return. He wants to set the bar high so a team will overpay even after negotiating a deal far below the original offer.
The other alternative - is that it means he doesn't get moved because no one even calls to incquire because the asking price is so high.

Regardless - I don't agree with your line of thought with negotiating. There is a perceived value for a guy like Fisher. Asking for significantly more than that does NOT mean you get more value for him. I just don't think it works like that.

If I want to be a used car, and there's a nice car I see, but the guy is asking twice what it's worth. Does that make it more likely that I'm going to pay more for the car? Does Murray (or people in this thread) think they're getting a great deal at the jewelry store because "everything is half off!"?

Beukeboom Fan is offline  
Old
02-03-2011, 02:14 PM
  #225
Minister of Offence
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 24,072
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post


Not nearly enough to be one of the top 5 or 6 teams in the East.
Enough to make the playoffs...possibly. And with the other stuff, new coach, new GM, top prospects all inserted...a team that could develop beyond that in future seasons? Quite possibly.

So we could:
-get a competent coach with NHL experience (respect)
-a new GM and management
-insert Rundblad (who mirrors Subban's style of play, and you think wil be better)
-have Karlsson (who develops by the day)
-have Cowen (who will be hardpressed not to be a very strong developing defensive presence)
-potentially have something like Spezza, Couturier/RNH, Fisher down the middle by 2012-13
-IFFFFFFF we get a goalie on top of that...we have the money to pretty much coerce any goalie that hits free agency

You don't think that's a team that could improve from this year...and develop into a solid core with some veteran leadership?

Minister of Offence is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:47 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.