Post Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus - Penguins vs. Isles (2-2-11)

[Rowdy Roddy Peeper]

Another thing to consider Jig (and I don't know why I didn't think of it sooner), is that we're really in no danger of losing Vitale or Johnson next season. Vitale's signed through next year and Johnson's an RFA.

Both could see limited time in the NHL for injury call-ups, and then if they're going to be players in the end, graduate full-time after that.

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes

Beauty. It's a combination of factors. We agree.

As for the supposed "dynamic, dominant" Jeffrey you claim I've been hyping, that was your misrepresentation of my position. I simply said Jeffrey improved significantly over last season, which is entirely possible without him becoming Trottier-on-steroids.

Trying to say a guy who played lights out last season "improved significantly" is exclaiming him to be pretty dynamic.

I don't see any other way to interpret it.

Perhaps you were a little over zealous in determining how much he improved?

I'm not. I said it was representative of his improvement. And while I'm not an avid WBS watcher like you, I've seen a few games the last couple years along with virtually every game Jeffrey's played at the NHL level. More than enough to form an informed opinion of my own, thanks.

Then you should know full well his game isn't "significantly improved".

So his jumping a line constituted what, exactly, if it wasn't an upgrade in linemates?

Do you really need me to break down the differences in assignments from a checking line role to a scoring line role?

I'll gladly do it, but assumed you would understand the differences.

And ya, I definitely consider Johnson a big upgrade from Collins. He only has almost twice the points and has him doubled up in goals. Not to mention he is called "dangles" for a reason.

But hey let's not let those facts get in the way of your argument.

I'm surprised that no young prospect has ever taken his demotion as a sign that he needs to work on his consistency and confidence to get to the NHL, but instead every one has a deep-seated, barely-contained resentment about his return to the AHL, and resigns himself to tread water until such time as management realizes their mistake.

Just like no player has ever felt he got shafted and worked his ass off to prove the team wrong for sending him down while saying all the right things, despite being pissed off about it.

Never bro.

Your position is clear. Why you think that prospects should be given roster spots instead of showing definitively that they're better than veteran options isn't.

So basically Jeffrey and Tangradi coasted through camp and hoped to be given a spot?

I saw two guys who worked extremely hard in the Summer, did all that was asked of them, brought it in camp and preseason and both got sent to the A because of a redundant fwd the team already had in spades (who the coach mysteriously likes to bench) and a scrap heap player.

And you still haven't addressed where you'd be fitting Tangradi, Jeffrey, Letestu, Vitale, and Johnson on the Pens roster in '11-'12, in your dream scenario.

Try to pay attention... it was almost two posts ago so I know it is tough to remember that far back...

But didn't I say all of them on the roster is not a plausible scenario?

It's not obvious at all to me. When you have proven veterans in support roles on a contender, it makes sense to keep them there until prospects prove they can be better regardless of the cap situation.

Don't you use cap space to keep all that veteran depth?

Try to connect the dots - it isn't hard DD.

I never said that Holland was perfect. But for every Leino there's a whole lot of forgettable players that got lost in the shuffle.

That's why he's recognized as the best GM in the league.

Best GM in the league... yet he let a quality prospect go in favor of veterans... now Philly of all teams is reaping the rewards.

Perhaps if the best GM in the league makes this mistake - so can Shero?

Is there any example I could give that wouldn't be countered with a "he just wasn't that talented/didn't have the work ethic necessary" retort?

Since that is 99% of the reason a prospect fails, probably not.

But don't be afraid to try anyway to make your point. Since there is such a wasteland of "ruined" prospects who were rushed, I'm sure you can find one.

I'm rooting for you DD.

Jeffrey seems to be doing a pretty good job of that right now.

When Jeffrey is asked to go get his face smashed in on every shift in front of the net and make his living there and change his game, will he be as effective or take time to adapt like Tangradi?

Provided he keeps playing at a level something like he has to this point, I agree.

It's swell to agree, right DD?

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes

Another thing to consider Jig (and I don't know why I didn't think of it sooner), is that we're really in no danger of losing Vitale or Johnson next season. Vitale's signed through next year and Johnson's an RFA.

Both could see limited time in the NHL for injury call-ups, and then if they're going to be players in the end, graduate full-time after that.

My issue is that you can't have that many players with so little NHL experience on your roster at once, without suffering in the standings.

Rookies make mistakes. Mistakes costs you games.

Which is why if they get Jeffrey and Tangradi experience now, it won't be such a big deal when a Vitale or Johnson is in the lineup next season.

[Rowdy Roddy Peeper]

Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly

Trying to say a guy who played lights out last season "improved significantly" is exclaiming him to be pretty dynamic.

I don't see any other way to interpret it.

Perhaps you were a little over zealous in determining how much he improved?

I'm sure you know there's no small difference between a very good player at the AHL level and a good player at the NHL level.

Then you should know full well his game isn't "significantly improved".

Last year, Jeffrey played well but didn't distinguish himself enough to earn call-ups over several other young Pens prospects. This year, he's been arguably the best player in the AHL and forced management's hand.

At any rate, it doesn't look like you and I will come to any satisfying answer here - especially since we're dealing with a nebulous term like "significantly".

Do you really need me to break down the differences in assignments from a checking line role to a scoring line role?

I'll gladly do it, but assumed you would understand the differences.

And ya, I definitely consider Johnson a big upgrade from Collins. He only has almost twice the points and has him doubled up in goals. Not to mention he is called "dangles" for a reason.

But hey let's not let those facts get in the way of your argument.

The line-up I posted from Dec.14th featured Walker, not Johnson.

I'm curious though...exactly what game do you believe Hynes just decided to tell Tangradi - Vitale - (insert winger) to be a scoring line instead of a checking line? And why do you think that theory of yours is more viable than the words straight from Tangradi's mouth about a change in his approach being the reason for his turnaround?

Just like no player has ever felt he got shafted and worked his ass off to prove the team wrong for sending him down while saying all the right things, despite being pissed off about it.

Never bro.

If a demotion is the catalyst for a prospect's improvement, I don't think anyone cares whether the prospect did it out of a genuine dedication to self-improvement or a desire to prove people wrong. What's more, we have no idea which it was...only that it happened.

Which is why it's more than a little dubious for you to suggest you know the "real" reason for the turnaround.

So basically Jeffrey and Tangradi coasted through camp and hoped to be given a spot?

I saw two guys who worked extremely hard in the Summer, did all that was asked of them, brought it in camp and preseason and both got sent to the A because of a redundant fwd the team already had in spades (who the coach mysteriously likes to bench) and a scrap heap player.

Shero wants prospects to force his hand. Neither Jeffrey nor Tangradi did that out of camp.

Try to pay attention... it was almost two posts ago so I know it is tough to remember that far back...

But didn't I say all of them on the roster is not a plausible scenario?

Scoured it...nothing. But when you addressed it here:

Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly

My issue is that you can't have that many players with so little NHL experience on your roster at once, without suffering in the standings.

Rookies make mistakes. Mistakes costs you games.

Which is why if they get Jeffrey and Tangradi experience now, it won't be such a big deal when a Vitale or Johnson is in the lineup next season.

It looks like you think it might be an either/or for Vitale/Johnson getting a regular spot. And I think it'd be playing with fire having so many rookies/sophomores playing on a contender.

That'd be a 3rd of our forward corps.

Don't you use cap space to keep all that veteran depth?

Try to connect the dots - it isn't hard DD.

Explain to me how the cap would affect Helm being kept in the minors instead of taking over for Maltby, because I have no idea how you would put those dots together.

Maybe employing the same mysterious strategy you used to figure out that Tangradi is only giving Pittsburgh reporters lip service rather than a reasonable answer that can be taken at face value, or to calculate Jeffrey's projected totals earlier in the thread.

Either way, it's anything but common knowledge.

Best GM in the league... yet he let a quality prospect go in favor of veterans... now Philly of all teams is reaping the rewards.

Perhaps if the best GM in the league makes this mistake - so can Shero?

Detroit lost Leino. Vancouver just lost Grabner.

When you're a contender, sometimes a decent prospect can fall through the cracks because there are only so many rookie roster spots available on the big club. It happens.

It's moot anyways, because there's no danger of Johnson or Vitale skipping town next year.

Since that is 99% of the reason a prospect fails, probably not.

But don't be afraid to try anyway to make your point. Since there is such a wasteland of "ruined" prospects who were rushed, I'm sure you can find one.

I'm rooting for you DD.

Any number of players could qualify. Gilbert Brule seems like a good candidate - a highly-touted prospect rushed into the NHL, wasn't ready to produce at that level, never produced anywhere close to expectations.

When Jeffrey is asked to go get his face smashed in on every shift in front of the net and make his living there and change his game, will he be as effective or take time to adapt like Tangradi?

I'm not sure how this is relevant.

It's swell to agree, right DD?

Every once in awhile.

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes

I'm sure you know there's no small difference between a very good player at the AHL level and a good player at the NHL level.

Jeffrey hasn't proven he is a good player at the NHL level yet.

Again, don't put the cart ahead of the horse.

Last year, Jeffrey played well but didn't distinguish himself enough to earn call-ups over several other young Pens prospects. This year, he's been arguably the best player in the AHL and forced management's hand.

Johnson was also on a tear when he got called up last season. Often times it is about who is hot when the call comes, and not necessarily your entire body of work for that season.

That's life in the minors.

And again you want to attribute Jeffrey forcing mgmt's hand to him spending more time in the A and being developed further.

I attribute it to his work over the Summer and firmly believe if he was given the spot he should of earned out of camp, he would be further along than he is now.

There is simply no way you can tell me that Jeffrey spending time in the A was more beneficial than if he spent the time on the third line in the NHL, just as with Tangradi.

Shero and DB decided to give that spot to Conner, who has done an admirable job, but I am more than fairly certain Jeffrey/Tangradi could of done just as well and he has no future with this team going fwd.

Just like Asham. Just like Comrie.

See the trend?

At any rate, it doesn't look like you and I will come to any satisfying answer here - especially since we're dealing with a nebulous term like "significantly".

That is why I don't get all exited about a prospect after a few games and endorse him as significantly improved.

Let's see how he handles the grind of the season... pressure down the stretch... etc. Far too many prospects start out hot and then cool off.

I think I've stressed it on numerous occasions that it takes an ample amount of time to know where a prospect is at, and I am talking a minimum of 40-50 games.

The line-up I posted from Dec.14th featured Walker, not Johnson.

I'm curious though...exactly what game do you believe Hynes just decided to tell Tangradi - Vitale - (insert winger) to be a scoring line instead of a checking line?

So basically you looked at the lineup of one game and assumed?

Johnson was playing with Tangradi before he got the call.

And have you never played org. hockey before? I can't believe I have to argue the assignments of a checking line and a scoring line with you.

I'm a little disappointed DD... srry.

And why do you think that theory of yours is more viable than the words straight from Tangradi's mouth about a change in his approach being the reason for his turnaround?

I don't have to read what Tangradi said. I watched him play and his production went up when he was put into a scoring role.

It really isn't a big mystery to solve.

If a demotion is the catalyst for a prospect's improvement, I don't think anyone cares whether the prospect did it out of a genuine dedication to self-improvement or a desire to prove people wrong. What's more, we have no idea which it was...only that it happened.

Which is why it's more than a little dubious for you to suggest you know the "real" reason for the turnaround.

As I said, it isn't a mystery.

He was put on a scoring line and his production went up.

It isn't difficult to figure out and we don't need to call in Nancy Drew and The Hardy Boys to solve it.

Shero wants prospects to force his hand. Neither Jeffrey nor Tangradi did that out of camp.

So they should of scored a HT every game to force his hand?

Shero even commented how it was a difficult decision to send Jeffrey down...

A good GM can find the balance between making room for young players to develop at the NHL level, and having a veteran laden team.

Shero seems to always want to defer to veterans, even if they are redundant or scrap heap guys.

Scoured it...nothing. But when you addressed it here:

It looks like you think it might be an either/or for Vitale/Johnson getting a regular spot. And I think it'd be playing with fire having so many rookies/sophomores playing on a contender.

That'd be a 3rd of our forward corps.

There is no reason Jeffrey and Tangradi should not be on their NHL roster next Fall (assuming one isn't traded).

Which means when injuries hit, Vitale/Johnson would most likely be the ones called up.

So ya, it is imperative Tangradi/Jeffrey get as much NHL experience as possible before then, especially given the injury situation now.

Or else next Fall you risk having so much inexperience in your lineup at any given time.

Explain to me how the cap would affect Helm being kept in the minors instead of taking over for Maltby, because I have no idea how you would put those dots together.

You are trying to make the case that having more cap room to pay your bottom 6 players and thus makes you less likely to need help from the farm, is not an advantage?

How you can't recognize that is pretty astounding...

Maybe employing the same mysterious strategy you used to figure out that Tangradi is only giving Pittsburgh reporters lip service rather than a reasonable answer that can be taken at face value, or to calculate Jeffrey's projected totals earlier in the thread.

Either way, it's anything but common knowledge.

You can't be gullible enough to believe a prospect is going to say what he really feels. Orpik is the only one I have ever seen bad mouth the org (with merit I should I add).

One needs only look at what happened to CPZ recently to learn their lesson.

You think the org. didn't just send him a message about what his wife wrote by snubbing him?

Detroit lost Leino. Vancouver just lost Grabner.

When you're a contender, sometimes a decent prospect can fall through the cracks because there are only so many rookie roster spots available on the big club. It happens.

It's moot anyways, because there's no danger of Johnson or Vitale skipping town next year.

It is a moot point because you want to twist the argument your way...

Leino is proof positive that sometimes a young player needs time to develop and playing vets over him isn't always the optimal decision.

You wanted to use Detroit as an example and you now have a legit reason that their methods are not 100% foolproof or always right.

Keep trying to spin it I guess...

Any number of players could qualify. Gilbert Brule seems like a good candidate - a highly-touted prospect rushed into the NHL, wasn't ready to produce at that level, never produced anywhere close to expectations.

Of all players you choose, Brule, who was overdrafted?

At least say Stefan, but I can counter that as well that he never had the lower body for the NHL.

I'm not sure how this is relevant.

Jeffrey isn't being asked to change his game the way Tangradi has.

There is no harder way to make a living in the NHL than being a PF who has to go to the net every shift and get banged around.

[JTG]

Battle of the heavyweights. I don't want to post anything of substance or even mildly opinionated for fear that I will be typed to death.

[sniugneP]

I love this thread.

I'm eating popcorn right now.

[Milliardo]

Originally Posted by sniugneP

I love this thread.

I'm eating popcorn right now.

Me too, I love it! I have to agree with CW though.