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Wingers, deadline, insanity Feb. 28th|part3

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02-05-2011, 01:43 PM
  #251
UnderratedBrooks44
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
I wouldn't give up anything more than picks or prospects for Versteeg.

What does trading 1 winger for another get us? All you can really get from that situation is someone who is further along in their development. It'd be different if Tangradi was years away, but he's not. He's ready now, IMO, and at the very worst, needs a 1/2 season more in WBS.
Can't believe I'm getting into this again but how is he ready now? You realize they're expecting him to produce right?

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02-05-2011, 01:44 PM
  #252
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
All I see is a really nice shot and a safe best for 3 20+ goal seasons in a row and probably 2 out of 3 over 50 points. I don't see inconsistency at all I see a nice top 6 finesse winger.
You need to watch more closely then.

Don't take my word for it, go ask Leaf fans how he has driven them nuts this year.

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02-05-2011, 01:49 PM
  #253
UnderratedBrooks44
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
You need to watch more closely then.

Don't take my word for it, go ask Leaf fans how he has driven them nuts this year.
Yet the production is there for the salary so if you're going to keep saying he's inconsistent yeah I guess he is. That's why he makes $3.3 mil or whatever and not $5 mil. Sykora was inconsistent too. It sounds like you don't like him because he's not perfect. About 3 guys on each team on average score 20+ goals, so how many players fit your definition of consistency?

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02-05-2011, 01:49 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Can't believe I'm getting into this again but how is he ready now? You realize they're expecting him to produce right?
He's able to keep up physically, he's imposing his will, he's creating while he's on the ice, he's getting in front of the net and he's very hard to move. There's a lot of positive things he's doing aside from scoring

He has been given an opportunity really since he's been up here, but once he adapts to the speed of the game mentally, you will see a much better player. He has very little, if anything, to gain from being sent back down to the minors. His role should be expanded on this team now, so we can see once and for all what he's made of.

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02-05-2011, 01:52 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
He's able to keep up physically, he's imposing his will, he's creating while he's on the ice, he's getting in front of the net and he's very hard to move. There's a lot of positive things he's doing aside from scoring

He has been given an opportunity really since he's been up here, but once he adapts to the speed of the game mentally, you will see a much better player. He has very little, if anything, to gain from being sent back down to the minors. His role should be expanded on this team now, so we can see once and for all what he's made of.
Make no mistake scoring from the wing position is why they acquired him. We need it. I'd like to see him developed to the point where he can contribute in a top 6 role. I'd like 17-18 goals from him in his first full season frankly. I don't see that at all now. Maybe next year.

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02-05-2011, 01:57 PM
  #256
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While this definitely is bad for our chances this year, if Shero plays it smart, he could get a long term solution at wing. Teams get desperate around deadline time and sometimes you can steal players. For the first time since we got Hossa in a trade, we have a significant amount of space to play with.

I know people may say I'm crazy for saying this but it might be the time to dangle Goligoski. If you get a winger who makes 5-6 million even (which is obviously around the max), you can trade Goligoski and have to eat about 4 million in capspace. So therefore, you have a gap in the defense but you fill a top 6 need and you still have plenty of room to fill the number 5 defenseman spot with a impending UFA. Hell, thats Phillips range.

For example:

Kunitz-Crosby-Deadline Pickup (4.5 million)
Cooke-Staal-Kennedy
Tangradi-Jeffrey-Conner
Rupp-Talbot-Adams

Letang-Orpik
Martin-Michalek
Deadline Pickup (3.5 million)-Engo

It's far from perfect but you may actually gain a short term advantage on the defensive end. Plus, in the offseason, you can evaluate Despres and see if he's ready to fill the void. If not, you can get a cheap number 5 option come July 1st and already have the top 6 forward that Shero covets. We would essentially become a 1 line team up front with a bunch of grinding defensive players for the playoffs. We would have an excellent defense with a good goalie. Things could be better but we are far from done.

This of course is one of many scenario's that I would consider. I'm curious to hear what Avs fans had to deal with the year Forsberg was out. Although I think he was hurt in the playoffs...

As far as guys I would consider, thats another story. I'd get creative if I'm Shero. Here are a few I'd think about:

Boyes
Umberger
Neal
Hemsky
Penner
Williams
Versteeg
Raymond
Stafford

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02-05-2011, 02:00 PM
  #257
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I don't think we can afford to trade our D now. We're going to have to be a very different team and rely on our defense to win games. We also can't afford to have Dupuis on the 1st line with Crosby without Malkin around. We're going to need to make that 1st line even more dangerous by adding another legit top line winger. We probably also need to add a cheap depth winger/center.

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02-05-2011, 02:04 PM
  #258
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I don't think we can afford to trade our D now. We're going to have to be a very different team and rely on our defense to win games. We also can't afford to have Dupuis on the 1st line with Crosby without Malkin around. We're going to need to make that 1st line even more dangerous by adding another legit top line winger. We probably also need to add a cheap depth winger/center.
I agree, but the only scenario I could see us getting something legitimate is if we dangle Goligoski. Thats not to say, we give him away by any means. It has to be good and it has to make us better (true of any deal).

But remember, even if the winger is a 4-5 million dollar cap hit, you still have 3-4 million to fill for a number 5 defenseman. Not that we can give away a lot of assets but you can get a solid number 5 (think Leopold or better) for a second round pick and then in the offseason you can re-evaluate the defensemen who are number 5 and 6. If Despres is ready, we don't need to add to much and if not, we can get a cheap 1-2 million dollar option for the number 5 option.

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02-05-2011, 02:06 PM
  #259
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Summarizing where we are for my own sanity, so bear with me please haha

With Geno done for the year that makes our top two lines (with Sid) this:

Kunitz - Crosby - Dupuis
Cooke - Staal - Kennedy

With the bottom six overflow when healthy like this:
Conner - Jeffrey - Talbot
Rupp - Adams - Asham
Letestu, Godard, Tangradi

I guess for me the question is where do we need to upgrade the most?

-Sid's RW?
-Either of Staal's wings?

If we keep together Staal's line (which most Pens fans would expect) it means we should be looking for a RW for Sid.

So who are the possible target RW's? Hemsky, Boyes, Kovy, Wheeler, Upshall, Stempniak, Setoguchi?

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02-05-2011, 02:06 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Make no mistake scoring from the wing position is why they acquired him. We need it. I'd like to see him developed to the point where he can contribute in a top 6 role. I'd like 17-18 goals from him in his first full season frankly. I don't see that at all now. Maybe next year.
I think you have expectations that are so incredibly unrealistic for a 22 year old player who has only played a handful of NHL games that's it's very hard to take anything you say about Tangradi seriously.

My hope is that by playoff time he is comfortable enough to the point where he can play a top 6 role and not look out of place. And frankly, his role in this organization won't see him get a ton of points, unless he is put on the first PP unit. His role will be to make room for the players around him. His stats will be the increase in stats of the players he plays with.

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02-05-2011, 02:07 PM
  #261
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Aw man why did you have to do that? Now I'm going to have to endure a million proposals involving us taking one some overpaid has been whose contract is up.
Hey, it's a proposal that doesn't give up any of our untouchable everythings.

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02-05-2011, 02:11 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Yet the production is there for the salary so if you're going to keep saying he's inconsistent yeah I guess he is. That's why he makes $3.3 mil or whatever and not $5 mil. Sykora was inconsistent too. It sounds like you don't like him because he's not perfect. About 3 guys on each team on average score 20+ goals, so how many players fit your definition of consistency?
The issue isn't if I like him or not, it is if I would trade the Pens only legit winger prospect for him, and that is a resounding no.

It is bad asset mgmt. I like the guy, but not enough to give up a Tangradi for.

I know you love to look at the negative side of how prospects will turn out for this team, but you have to leave open the possibility that he fulfills his potential as well.

So that said, I'd rather see Shero package Tangradi and a 1st rounder or some other desirable asset for Kulemin or a similar type player.

Because I can't ever see Tangradi being better than Kulemin, but I can see him being better than Versteeg.

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02-05-2011, 02:16 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by AgentM View Post
Summarizing where we are for my own sanity, so bear with me please haha

With Geno done for the year that makes our top two lines (with Sid) this:

Kunitz - Crosby - Dupuis
Cooke - Staal - Kennedy

With the bottom six overflow when healthy like this:
Conner - Jeffrey - Talbot
Rupp - Adams - Asham
Letestu, Godard, Tangradi

I guess for me the question is where do we need to upgrade the most?

-Sid's RW?
-Either of Staal's wings?

If we keep together Staal's line (which most Pens fans would expect) it means we should be looking for a RW for Sid.

So who are the possible target RW's? Hemsky, Boyes, Kovy, Wheeler, Upshall, Stempniak, Setoguchi?
Agreed. I'd add Penner and Williams to that list.

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02-05-2011, 02:21 PM
  #264
UnderratedBrooks44
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
I think you have expectations that are so incredibly unrealistic for a 22 year old player who has only played a handful of NHL games that's it's very hard to take anything you say about Tangradi seriously.

My hope is that by playoff time he is comfortable enough to the point where he can play a top 6 role and not look out of place. And frankly, his role in this organization won't see him get a ton of points, unless he is put on the first PP unit. His role will be to make room for the players around him. His stats will be the increase in stats of the players he plays with.
I didn't say I wanted him to do that at age 22 I said eventually that's what I want him to be. What top 6 players do you know of that are 15 goal scorers yet are highly regarded because they "make room for the players around him"? There are none. You're way off base and you're clearly giving the guy incredible leeway because he's a Penguin. If he can't score 20 goals in the future he's not what they hoped he would be, the end.

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02-05-2011, 02:23 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
The issue isn't if I like him or not, it is if I would trade the Pens only legit winger prospect for him, and that is a resounding no.

It is bad asset mgmt. I like the guy, but not enough to give up a Tangradi for.

I know you love to look at the negative side of how prospects will turn out for this team, but you have to leave open the possibility that he fulfills his potential as well.

So that said, I'd rather see Shero package Tangradi and a 1st rounder or some other desirable asset for Kulemin or a similar type player.

Because I can't ever see Tangradi being better than Kulemin, but I can see him being better than Versteeg.
I wouldn't say I'm obsessed with the negative side of prospects (although I understand why you would say it ) I'm just trying to illustrate that there's two sides of it. Yeah Tangradi could be a 25 goal scoring power forward. He could also be a tweener. Versteeg is a 20+ goal scorer that could possibly pot a few more on this team. I just see a maybe and a guy that has proven it.

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02-05-2011, 02:28 PM
  #266
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I think it's time for us to splurge a bit. Treat ourselves. We've got no more Malkin, probably not even in the playoffs. Let's grab someone big. Let's not be afraid to give something up. We're going to get something back.

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02-05-2011, 02:31 PM
  #267
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I wonder what it would take to get Penner.

I think he's the type of player who could excel with Sid, big body to park in front.

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02-05-2011, 02:33 PM
  #268
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Agreed. I'd add Penner and Williams to that list.
Williams would be excellent. Can Penner play RW?

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02-05-2011, 02:34 PM
  #269
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Williams would be excellent. Can Penner play RW?
Yup.

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02-05-2011, 02:36 PM
  #270
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capgeek updated Pens max cap hit to $8.178 million.

Edit: Penner has an additional year left, didn't realize that. not sure I like.

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02-05-2011, 02:39 PM
  #271
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I'm looking at the Tangradi situation the same as Ziggy Hood. If Aaron Smith doesn't go down, people are still calling Hood a bust. But now that he's gotten the playing time, the experience , he looks like our franchise DE for the future. Tangradi now has that opportunity, since Malkin has gotten hurt...which he wouldn't have gotten otherwise. He has to make the best of it now. Has two months to prepare for the playoffs. Plenty of time.

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02-05-2011, 02:41 PM
  #272
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It really would be nice to hear some good news regarding Crosby. It would make this a lot easier to take if I knew Crosby was coming back in the next two weeks.

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02-05-2011, 02:45 PM
  #273
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Staal misses half the year.
Malkin to miss half the year.
Crosby to miss God knows how long.

Hate to say it, but this just isn't their year. I wouldn't mortgage the future to maybe win an extra series in the playoffs (assuming they even make it). Sit Crosby for the rest of the year if needed, let the young guys play, and look forward to next year. F me

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02-05-2011, 02:50 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
Yup.
Hmmm, interesting... If only he was a righty he'd be a perfect target. So what would people rather have if the Oilers are interested in dealing with us?

Kunitz - Crosby - Penner

Or

Kunitz - Crosby - Hemsky

And what would each player cost? They both have another year left on their deals and make around $4m if I remember correctly. I'd think we could get either of them for a first and a decent prospect and maybe a bottom six forward?

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02-05-2011, 02:59 PM
  #275
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Hmmm, interesting... If only he was a righty he'd be a perfect target. So what would people rather have if the Oilers are interested in dealing with us?

Kunitz - Crosby - Penner

Or

Kunitz - Crosby - Hemsky

And what would each player cost? They both have another year left on their deals and make around $4m if I remember correctly. I'd think we could get either of them for a first and a decent prospect and maybe a bottom six forward?
I like Hemsky. He's 150K cheaper, a righty, and Kunitz already plays the drive the net role pretty well for Sid.

I'd do 1st+Strait/Samuelson+Rupp/Connor/whoever without thinking twice for either guy.

If they want 1st+Despres/Tangradi+Kennedy I hesitate a lot.

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