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Wingers, deadline, insanity Feb. 28th|part3

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02-04-2011, 11:38 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Aud Won View Post
The term ''Lunacy'' when dealing with you is very appropriate.

Voracek is playing with Nash, scoring 50 points isn't all that. Let's see him find the back of the net a bit more.

Time will tell but I firmly believe Despres will end up being the better player and more impactful than Voracek. We'll see how that pans out. But according to the organization Despres is on the fast track to the NHL. RS has stated clearly and concisely he doesn't want to part with him.
Lunacy would suggest that something I'm advocating would be a huge risk that could wreck the team, whereas my proposals are what I'd consider pretty conservative.

Yes, there would be some risk that we'd lose out if Despres were to hit his ceiling, but every trade involving 1st round picks is a risk.

Despres + a 2nd for Voracek is far less risky than Armstrong, Christensen, Esposito, and a 1st was. And even then, trading away essentially one first round pick, two former first round picks and a throwaway was in the end worth it.

At the time Espo was doing pretty good, and we didn't know who that 1st could land. And Armstrong was and still is a quality player IMO (albeit overpaid by Toronto)

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02-04-2011, 11:41 AM
  #77
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Well good thing we have two players who are vastly superior to Rick Nash, right? He's not parting with Despres for some scrub. Voracek is young, skilled, and a solid two way player. He can play the style of hockey that DB likes and will be an instant infusion of skill.

Despres would benefit being on this blue line in the short term, but as far as long term projections, the minutes just aren't here to be had for him.
As of right now you are correct, but in a year or two Despres could move up on the depth chart and supplant a guy like Gogo. And RS prefers guys who have his pedigree and size.

Regarding Voracek, yeah he's skilled but I am just not as high on him as others are. And if he's that good of a player the BJ's likely don't part with him anyhow.

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02-04-2011, 11:41 AM
  #78
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How would Pisani be anything but a downgrade over our own players?

Stalberg's yet to prove anything at the NHL level.

And why would Phoenix trade Stempniak? He's got another year at an affordable cap hit, and he's scoring for them.
No matter what we look at they aren't likely to be optimal solutions. You're right on Stempniak they probably wouldn't move him.

...

Being a Leafs fan as well as Pens fans I probably have more insight on players like Stalberg and Stempniak than most others around here do, and I just feel both could very well be good fits in one of the Pens numerous winger positions that need upgrading. That's not to suggest they are both, or either available, just ideas.

One of the most common complaints regarding Malkin's linemates I hear is lack of footspeed, and their inability to keep up. Stalberg brings speed in spades. His hockey IQ maybe isn't the best, but his release is excellent, and with Malkin playmaking on the line he's gonna be expected to be more of a shooter than passer for Gino. That's not to say he can't make a play however, I just would say his shooting and skating are what make him solid. He's got some size, but I wouldn't say he uses it much. That could be dealt with through coaching IMO.

The fact that Stalberg hasn't proven much at the NHL level is situational as much as anything else IMO. He was playing in the NCAA for multiple years finishing school. Signed a contract with the Leafs (who drafted him), played a little bit for the Marlies and then made the Leafs playing 40 games through the season. In Chicago he's playing bottom line, averaging about 10 minutes a game, with Jack Skille and I can't remember the other forward. Despite that, his first 87 NHL games have produced 17 goals, and 13 assists, which while not great isn't that bad either given the circumstances.

Part of the thought process behind a guy like Stalberg is that he hasn't proven that much yet, but has shown some potential. He has some value, but is acquirable without giving up anything of too significant a value IMO.

Whether he's that much of an upgrade over some guys coming up through the system though, is another argument entirely however.

...

Pisani was merely a random thought due to cap considerations; he's cheap, cheap, cheap. He's had some good time in the NHL (mostly that cup run in Edmonton), not sure what he's like so much anymore though.

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02-04-2011, 11:42 AM
  #79
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Wow, in the 30 years of watching the penguins and the NHL I never thought of that, really?
Well I make a post in which I outline short-term vs long-term analysis of Goligoski vs Despres, and then I advocate trading Despres for a long-term winger solution instead of Goligoski to keep him around for the short-term, and you say I'm only thinking about the short-term.

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02-04-2011, 11:42 AM
  #80
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Wow, in the 30 years of watching the penguins and the NHL I never thought of that, really?
You sound like an ole familiar guy that was around these boards before. PG, is that you?

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02-04-2011, 11:51 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by spectraljulian View Post
Lunacy would suggest that something I'm advocating would be a huge risk that could wreck the team, whereas my proposals are what I'd consider pretty conservative.

Yes, there would be some risk that we'd lose out if Despres were to hit his ceiling, but every trade involving 1st round picks is a risk.

Despres + a 2nd for Voracek is far less risky than Armstrong, Christensen, Esposito, and a 1st was. And even then, trading away essentially one first round pick, two former first round picks and a throwaway was in the end worth it.


At the time Espo was doing pretty good, and we didn't know who that 1st could land. And Armstrong was and still is a quality player IMO (albeit overpaid by Toronto)
I disagree with your assessment and here's why. Hossa and Dupuis were very proven (particularly Hossa). Armstrong was at best a third liner, EC was an enigma who almost never plays up to his talents and Espo's stalk even at that time was dropping considerably.

Voracek isn't a Hossa, and Despres's potential exceeds any of the guys we gave up for an all world talent in a guy like Hossa.

It just depends on how high you are on Despres or how much you think of Voracek. BOTH have a lot to prove, but at this point I believe Despres long term is a much better bet. You don't see a progression like that very often in a defender. It's not that I think Voracek is a bad player I just am not captivated by him like some here.

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02-04-2011, 11:53 AM
  #82
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You sound like an ole familiar guy that was around these boards before. PG, is that you?
Not yet nope.

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02-04-2011, 11:54 AM
  #83
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No matter what we look at they aren't likely to be optimal solutions. You're right on Stempniak they probably wouldn't move him.

...

Being a Leafs fan as well as Pens fans I probably have more insight on players like Stalberg and Stempniak than most others around here do, and I just feel both could very well be good fits in one of the Pens numerous winger positions that need upgrading. That's not to suggest they are both, or either available, just ideas.

One of the most common complaints regarding Malkin's linemates I hear is lack of footspeed, and their inability to keep up. Stalberg brings speed in spades. His hockey IQ maybe isn't the best, but his release is excellent, and with Malkin playmaking on the line he's gonna be expected to be more of a shooter than passer for Gino. That's not to say he can't make a play however, I just would say his shooting and skating are what make him solid. He's got some size, but I wouldn't say he uses it much. That could be dealt with through coaching IMO.

The fact that Stalberg hasn't proven much at the NHL level is situational as much as anything else IMO. He was playing in the NCAA for multiple years finishing school. Signed a contract with the Leafs (who drafted him), played a little bit for the Marlies and then made the Leafs playing 40 games through the season. In Chicago he's playing bottom line, averaging about 10 minutes a game, with Jack Skille and I can't remember the other forward. Despite that, his first 87 NHL games have produced 17 goals, and 13 assists, which while not great isn't that bad either given the circumstances.

Part of the thought process behind a guy like Stalberg is that he hasn't proven that much yet, but has shown some potential. He has some value, but is acquirable without giving up anything of too significant a value IMO.

Whether he's that much of an upgrade over some guys coming up through the system though, is another argument entirely however.

...

Pisani was merely a random thought due to cap considerations; he's cheap, cheap, cheap. He's had some good time in the NHL (mostly that cup run in Edmonton), not sure what he's like so much anymore though.
Stalberg does have size too, which I think is one thing lacking in Malkin's recent wingers.

I know Chicago has to re-sign Crawford, Seabrook, Skille, and Brouwer this summer, but Stalberg's an RFA, and if he has potential I don't see why they wouldn't retain him, especially since no team will offer him a waiver sheet that wouldn't be easily matchable and he won't cost much in the first place.

An interesting thing about Chicago is that someone on the trade rumors board has said that Beach is available if anyone would take a flyer on him. It doesn't really make sense to me, but I haven't really followed his development. Is it just a fan that's frustrated because he really hasn't dominated in the AHL whereas they thought that such a high pick would rip it up?

Stemps I'd take but I don't know why Phoenix would trade him.

Pisani peaked in 05-06 and he's been on a steady decline since. Last year 4 goals and 4 assists in 40 games. This year he's doing a bit better on with 7 and 8 in 41. He hasn't played a full season since 06-07.

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02-04-2011, 11:55 AM
  #84
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You sound like an ole familiar guy that was around these boards before. PG, is that you?
I don't know if you read LGP at all, but if it was 35 years of watching hockey and he liked Higgins, I'd say it was sjnhiils.

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02-04-2011, 11:59 AM
  #85
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This is what I feel like I'm reading.


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02-04-2011, 11:59 AM
  #86
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As of right now you are correct, but in a year or two Despres could move up on the depth chart and supplant a guy like Gogo. And RS prefers guys who have his pedigree and size.

Regarding Voracek, yeah he's skilled but I am just not as high on him as others are. And if he's that good of a player the BJ's likely don't part with him anyhow.
Simon Despres will not be an Alex Goligoski. Despres' ceiling, IMO, would be that of a Paul Martin with more size and physicality, but again, that's best case scenario. From watching Despres, I'm not seeing the high end offensive ability Goligoski has, and what you need to be a PP guy. He has a good first pass and incredible wheels.

CBJ would part with Voracek, because much like us, they have holes to fill, and they can deal from a position of strength.

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02-04-2011, 12:01 PM
  #87
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I don't know if you read LGP at all, but if it was 35 years of watching hockey and he liked Higgins, I'd say it was sjnhiils.
If you're intimating I like Higgins you are clearly misinformed. I suggested Higgins and stated clearly he's not ideal. But with the limited options we have and the fact that FLA is dropping out of contention, it seems more of a possibility than most. Please try and pay attention.

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02-04-2011, 12:01 PM
  #88
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You sound like an ole familiar guy that was around these boards before. PG, is that you?
Ray Shero is an awful GM!!1! Why didn't he draft Lucic?!?!?!?!

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02-04-2011, 12:06 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Simon Despres will not be an Alex Goligoski. Despres' ceiling, IMO, would be that of a Paul Martin with more size and physicality, but again, that's best case scenario. From watching Despres, I'm not seeing the high end offensive ability Goligoski has, and what you need to be a PP guy. He has a good first pass and incredible wheels.

CBJ would part with Voracek, because much like us, they have holes to fill, and they can deal from a position of strength.
I don't know if he'll offensively be as good as Gogo but that wasn't my point. I look at him overall as a more reliable defender who defensively will be far more effective. The Martin comparison may be more apt.

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02-04-2011, 12:08 PM
  #90
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Not yet nope.
This makes no sense.

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02-04-2011, 12:09 PM
  #91
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I disagree with your assessment and here's why. Hossa and Dupuis were very proven (particularly Hossa). Armstrong was at best a third liner, EC was an enigma who almost never plays up to his talents and Espo's stalk even at that time was dropping considerably.

Voracek isn't a Hossa, and Despres's potential exceeds any of the guys we gave up for an all world talent in a guy like Hossa.

It just depends on how high you are on Despres or how much you think of Voracek. BOTH have a lot to prove, but at this point I believe Despres long term is a much better bet. You don't see a progression like that very often in a defender. It's not that I think Voracek is a bad player I just am not captivated by him like some here.
Voracek's not Hossa, but also remember all of that was just for a few months of Hossa and a fraction of a chance at signing Hossa. Voracek would be a few more months of him and keeping him for four more years at the very least. (Best thing to do would be to sign him for 3 so he'd still be an RFA at the end of it.)

Espo's value hadn't fallen that much. If you would ask Shero, he probably still would have been considered our top forward prospect at the time, and that 1st round pick could have been someone with just as much promise as Despres.

It's only in hindsight that the Penguins got the better end of that deal. If it wasn't for all of Espo's injuries and had Atlanta made a better pick, they could have really benefited from that trade in the long run.

It's way more risky in the short term to trade Goligoski for a winger. Lovejoy and Engelland on the 3rd pairing? Of course trading Goligoski for Voracek would give the Pens some extra cap-space to get a defenseman, but many of us already want to add a 6th defenseman to make Lovejoy and Engelland 7 and 8 instead of 6 and 7. So you'd have to consider future assets given up for a #5 that you wouldn't otherwise give up trading Despres.


It's a moot point anyways because Columbus laughs off both offers.

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02-04-2011, 12:21 PM
  #92
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I don't know if he'll offensively be as good as Gogo but that wasn't my point. I look at him overall as a more reliable defender who defensively will be far more effective. The Martin comparison may be more apt.
How can you see him as a more reliable defender who is more effective even though he hasn't played a day in professional hockey? Right now he is playing in a league where his skill is superior, so I'm not entirely sure how anyone gets a read on him. He has had a couple good NHL camps, but I would hardly consider that a measuring stick for how he would fair in the NHL as a regular.

Despres at this point is nothing more than a potential laden question mark. At least with Voracek, we are filling a need, we know what he is capable of, and he plays the game the way DB likes his players to play it.

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02-04-2011, 12:21 PM
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Voracek's not Hossa, but also remember all of that was just for a few months of Hossa and a fraction of a chance at signing Hossa. Voracek would be a few more months of him and keeping him for four more years at the very least. (Best thing to do would be to sign him for 3 so he'd still be an RFA at the end of it.)

Espo's value hadn't fallen that much. If you would ask Shero, he probably still would have been considered our top forward prospect at the time, and that 1st round pick could have been someone with just as much promise as Despres.

It's only in hindsight that the Penguins got the better end of that deal. If it wasn't for all of Espo's injuries and had Atlanta made a better pick, they could have really benefited from that trade in the long run.

It's way more risky in the short term to trade Goligoski for a winger. Lovejoy and Engelland on the 3rd pairing? Of course trading Goligoski for Voracek would give the Pens some extra cap-space to get a defenseman, but many of us already want to add a 6th defenseman to make Lovejoy and Engelland 7 and 8 instead of 6 and 7. So you'd have to consider future assets given up for a #5 that you wouldn't otherwise give up trading Despres.


It's a moot point anyways because Columbus laughs off both offers.
I was far more inclined to trade Goose a couple weeks back then I am now. In any case it's not that I necessarily want to part with him (again unless we get a proven winger who scores) but it's more that I would be far more reluctant in trading Depres.

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02-04-2011, 12:22 PM
  #94
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This makes no sense.
I read his response like five times trying to figure out how it, in any way, shape, or form, made sense in the context of what he was asked.

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02-04-2011, 12:25 PM
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Why would someone be more inclined to part with a legitimate NHL asset over a prospect? That's HF Think at its finest, if I do say so.

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02-04-2011, 12:29 PM
  #96
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02-04-2011, 12:30 PM
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Because I firmly believe his upside far exceeds Gogo's. Goose is undersized and get's out muscled quite a bit in the defensive zone. That kind of thing won't be happening with Despres. If you look at Gogo defensively he's serviceable at best. Despres is mobile, bigger and is gonna only improve.

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02-04-2011, 12:42 PM
  #98
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Because I firmly believe his upside far exceeds Gogo's. Goose is undersized and get's out muscled quite a bit in the defensive zone. That kind of thing won't be happening with Despres. If you look at Gogo defensively he's serviceable at best. Despres is mobile, bigger and is gonna only improve.
You're wasting your time here, boss. You should be scouting.

Your posts routinely take risk completely out of the equation. In the business of developing hockey talent, it isn't always sugarplums and rainbows. Could Despres be a Jay Bouwmeeter or a Paul Martin? Maybe, but that's a long ways away, and the odds of him being that are against him.

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02-04-2011, 12:47 PM
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You're wasting your time here, boss. You should be scouting.

Your posts routinely take risk completely out of the equation. In the business of developing hockey talent, it isn't always sugarplums and rainbows.
I factor a lot of variables into the equation. I don't think parting with Gogo will necessarily shut this team down. He's only a number five defense men here. Despres in the estimation of the organization is very highly regarded. Maybe do some research on the matter and you'll see that.

And again, it's not that I now want to part with Goose, I am just less likely to part with Despres.

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02-04-2011, 12:58 PM
  #100
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I factor a lot of variables into the equation. I don't think parting with Gogo will necessarily shut this team down. He's only a number five defense men here. Despres in the estimation of the organization is very highly regarded. Maybe do some research on the matter and you'll see that.
Being a smart ass is not a way to have people respect anything you say (but it looks like you're well on your way there). You can question my knowledge to somehow lend credibility to what you're saying, but it doesn't work and it only makes you look worse.

Saying Goligoski is a #5 is like saying Martin is a #3 or a Michalek is a #4 or Malkin is a 2nd line center. You absolutely love assigning concrete numbers to players and units, for some reason. Goligoski is a middle pairing, PMD, who can QB a powerplay. He's not a #5, and is only a #5 because of the 4 guys who are ahead of him.

What this team needs is a guy like Robert Bortuzzo actually. Pairing him with Goligoski next year will give us a very solid, well rounded bottom pairing. That is the guy we need. Despres is a luxury.

Maybe if you would do a little research on Voracek you would see that he's a legitimate top 6 option who is quite young, very well rounded, and hasn't reached his potential yet.

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And again, it's not that I now want to part with Goose, I am just less likely to part with Despres.
Yeah, because you have the very flawed HF mentality.

picks > prospects > players

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