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Wingers, deadline, insanity Feb. 28th|part3

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Old
02-04-2011, 02:00 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Why would someone be more inclined to part with a legitimate NHL asset over a prospect? That's HF Think at its finest, if I do say so.
This is hockey's future.... therefore we put more stock around here into potential as opposed to actual skill. When they have skill, they are bums that can be traded for conditional picks.

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02-04-2011, 02:09 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Aud Won View Post
Because I firmly believe his upside far exceeds Gogo's. Goose is undersized and get's out muscled quite a bit in the defensive zone. That kind of thing won't be happening with Despres. If you look at Gogo defensively he's serviceable at best. Despres is mobile, bigger and is gonna only improve.
his downside also far exceeds Gogo's.


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02-04-2011, 02:12 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Being a smart ass is not a way to have people respect anything you say (but it looks like you're well on your way there). You can question my knowledge to somehow lend credibility to what you're saying, but it doesn't work and it only makes you look worse.

Saying Goligoski is a #5 is like saying Martin is a #3 or a Michalek is a #4 or Malkin is a 2nd line center. You absolutely love assigning concrete numbers to players and units, for some reason. Goligoski is a middle pairing, PMD, who can QB a powerplay. He's not a #5, and is only a #5 because of the 4 guys who are ahead of him.

What this team needs is a guy like Robert Bortuzzo actually. Pairing him with Goligoski next year will give us a very solid, well rounded bottom pairing. That is the guy we need. Despres is a luxury.

Maybe if you would do a little research on Voracek you would see that he's a legitimate top 6 option who is quite young, very well rounded, and hasn't reached his potential yet.



Yeah, because you have the very flawed HF mentality.

picks > prospects > players
So when Malkin WAS a penguins prospect and wasn't playing in the NHL, he wasn't the asset that most of our players on the NHL club were, right? Because that's the mentality you are exhibiting. Which is shortsighted and naive to say the least.

It all depends on how much someone values a particular player or prospect. I value Despres much more than Gogo. Time will tell If I am right but I am confident he will make a very good account of himself.

And on this team gogo is down the depth chart as it pertains to our defensive core. That's not an opinion it's a fact. Which is why he'd be more expendable because of our depth in that capacity. Again not saying he should leave, yet.

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02-04-2011, 02:14 PM
  #104
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his downside also fart exceeds Gogo's.

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02-04-2011, 02:29 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post



Yeah, because you have the very flawed HF mentality.

picks > prospects > players
You really are a propaganda artist aren't you? Because in this particular instance I view a prospects value to the team being greater than a guy who's a bottom pairing defense men here?

Yeah I know on most other teams he'd project higher but the fact is he's not in our top four. An because I think Despres will end up being the better player in this instance, that means that EVERY prospect will out do their counterparts on the big club?

I can see it now, Bennet supplants Crosby as the teams best player.

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02-04-2011, 02:29 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
his downside also fart exceeds Gogo's.
This was unintentionally hilarious as a response to Aud Won.

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02-04-2011, 02:31 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Aud Won View Post
So when Malkin WAS a penguins prospect and wasn't playing in the NHL, he wasn't the asset that most of our players on the NHL club were, right? Because that's the mentality you are exhibiting. Which is shortsighted and naive to say the least.

It all depends on how much someone values a particular player or prospect. I value Despres much more than Gogo. Time will tell If I am right but I am confident he will make a very good account of himself.

And on this team gogo is down the depth chart as it pertains to our defensive core. That's not an opinion it's a fact. Which is why he'd be more expendable because of our depth in that capacity. Again not saying he should leave, yet.
So going by your thought process now, Despres is the Malkin of defensive prospects? I mean, I can not use context too. Malkin was the best player NOT playing in the NHL. Despres isn't even the best Junior player from his country, so let's stop with that immediately.

The same reason you think Goligoski should be expendable is the same reason why I think Despres should be expendable, except I'm siding with the guy who has actually produced in the NHL where you are siding with the guy who hasn't played a day of professional hockey, but he MIGHT be better than Goligoski in the future. Despres isn't beating out anyone in our top 4 even if he does reach his potential, and doesn't even bring a unique skill set to the table that we are lacking.

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02-04-2011, 02:35 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
So going by your thought process now, Despres is the Malkin of defensive prospects? I mean, I can not use context too. Malkin was the best player NOT playing in the NHL. Despres isn't even the best Junior player from his country, so let's stop with that immediately.

The same reason you think Goligoski should be expendable is the same reason why I think Despres should be expendable, except I'm siding with the guy who has actually produced in the NHL where you are siding with the guy who hasn't played a day of professional hockey, but he MIGHT be better than Goligoski in the future. Despres isn't beating out anyone in our top 4 even if he does reach his potential.
Well Despres isn't going anywhere unless we get a pant load back. RS has made that clear. And I doubt he parts with Gogo this year either.

In any case we can revisit this issue down the road and see how Gogo and Despres play and who turns out to be the better defense men.

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02-04-2011, 02:36 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Aud Won View Post
You really are a propaganda artist aren't you? Because in this particular instance I view a prospects value to the team being greater than a guy who's a bottom pairing defense men here?

Yeah I know on most other teams he'd project higher but the fact is he's not in our top four. An because I think Despres will end up being the better player in this instance, that means that EVERY prospect will out do their counterparts on the big club?

I can see it now, Bennet supplants Crosby as the teams best player.
In no way, shape, or form, is Despres more valuable to this team, now or in the future, than Goligoski. And again (and again, and again), Goligoski is not a bottom pairing defenseman. He's a bottom pairing guy because we have unbelievable depth at the defensive position. I mean, even if Despres were to reach potential, he would be a bottom pairing defenseman here.

There is nothing you can say that makes Despres more valuable than Goligoski right now (especially since Goligoski is a RFA at the end of his current deal), and you saying Despres will be a better player than Goligoski doesn't make it true.

Shero is in the business of winning hockey games now and in the future. Goligoski is the guy who will put his squad in the best position to do so, now AND in the future.

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02-04-2011, 02:43 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
In no way, shape, or form, is Despres more valuable to this team, now or in the future, than Goligoski. And again (and again, and again), Goligoski is not a bottom pairing defenseman. He's a bottom pairing guy because we have unbelievable depth at the defensive position. I mean, even if Despres were to reach potential, he would be a bottom pairing defenseman here.

There is nothing you can say that makes Despres more valuable than Goligoski right now (especially since Goligoski is a RFA at the end of his current deal), and you saying Despres will be a better player than Goligoski doesn't make it true.

Shero is in the business of winning hockey games now and in the future. Goligoski is the guy who will put his squad in the best position to do so, now AND in the future.
You think I assume a lot, clearly you do. Goligoski isn't that good in his own end. He's undersized, gets pushed around quite a bit and loses one on one battles more than not. If you've been watching you'd know that's true. His offensive ability is tremendous, no argument there. But all around, I think your elevated opinion of him is way off base.

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02-04-2011, 02:43 PM
  #111
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I'd want to see Despres develop and play before I'd be willing to say he won't be more valuable to this team than Gogo in the future. At one time a lot of people thought that Ryan Whitney would be more valuable to this team than Letang and it didn't turn out that way. Only time will tell with that kind of thing. Gogo is certainly more valuable right now though since proven NHL'ers are almost always worth more than prospects unless the prospect was a very high pick and is elite.

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02-04-2011, 02:45 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Why would someone be more inclined to part with a legitimate NHL asset over a prospect? That's HF Think at its finest, if I do say so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aud Won View Post
So when Malkin WAS a penguins prospect and wasn't playing in the NHL, he wasn't the asset that most of our players on the NHL club were, right? Because that's the mentality you are exhibiting. Which is shortsighted and naive to say the least.

It all depends on how much someone values a particular player or prospect. I value Despres much more than Gogo. Time will tell If I am right but I am confident he will make a very good account of himself.

And on this team gogo is down the depth chart as it pertains to our defensive core. That's not an opinion it's a fact. Which is why he'd be more expendable because of our depth in that capacity. Again not saying he should leave, yet.
When Malkin was drafted, the organization thought of him as a franchise forward. The same can't be said for Despres.

If I'm drafting Despres I say to myself: "I like this guy, he'll play 2 more years in juniors, then he'll get a chance in camp to make the NHL squad, but probably need a year in the AHL first. When he makes it to the NHL, we'll put him on the 3rd pairing with a vet and then he can work his way up."

If I'm drafting Malkin I say to myself "Get him here as soon as possible, a top 6 center job is his to lose, maybe he can play on Mario's wing if Mario doesn't retire, and once Mario does he's going to be the saving grace of the franchise" (of course this was before Crosby was drafted.)

Malkin wasn't just any blue chip prospect, he was the cream of the crop.

If Despres qualifies as a blue chip, I'm sorry but just barely. Just barely.

With the whole: "Goligoski is a number 5" thing. . . if Despres is on the top pairing in WBS next year and we have 7 NHL defenseman, wouldn't that make him a number 8/9 by the same logic?

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02-04-2011, 02:50 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by spectraljulian View Post
When Malkin was drafted, the organization thought of him as a franchise forward. The same can't be said for Despres.

If I'm drafting Despres I say to myself: "I like this guy, he'll play 2 more years in juniors, then he'll get a chance in camp to make the NHL squad, but probably need a year in the AHL first. When he makes it to the NHL, we'll put him on the 3rd pairing with a vet and then he can work his way up."

If I'm drafting Malkin I say to myself "Get him here as soon as possible, a top 6 center job is his to lose, maybe he can play on Mario's wing if Mario doesn't retire, and once Mario does he's going to be the saving grace of the franchise" (of course this was before Crosby was drafted.)

Malkin wasn't just any blue chip prospect, he was the cream of the crop.

If Despres qualifies as a blue chip, I'm sorry but just barely. Just barely.

With the whole: "Goligoski is a number 5" thing. . . if Despres is on the top pairing in WBS next year and we have 7 NHL defenseman, wouldn't that make him a number 8/9 by the same logic?
If you are comparing Despres to any of our top four I don't think Despres would do as favorably, although his upside is considerable. When you are talking about Goose then I think Despres stacks up very well for the reasons I previously stated.

And no Despres isn't a Malkin, but when you compare Despres to Goose it's far from conclusive that Goose overall is the better player. And in fact based on youth, upside and size it's a very strong possibility that Despres passes him up in a year or two. Which is why I'd hold on to him moreso than Goose.

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02-04-2011, 02:53 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Aud Won View Post
You think I assume a lot, clearly you do. Goligoski isn't that good in his own end. He's undersized, gets pushed around quite a bit and loses one on one battles more than not. If you've been watching you'd know that's true. His offensive ability is tremendous, no argument there. But all around, I think your elevated opinion of him is way off base.
I'm not assuming anything. I watch hockey games. I don't have to project. Goligoski is probably our most naturally talented defenseman offensively. He has also proven, for stretches, that he can be quite good in his own end, play a responsible defensive game, and really fuel our quick transitioning system.

The thing that Goligoski is missing is not ability, it's consistency. I watched him last season for 20 games before he was injured play at a 2010-11 Letang level. He is very capable, and I think if you paired him with one player consistently, his defense would be better for it. Once he gets a rapport with Engelland, they bring in Lovejoy. Once he gets a rapport with Lovejoy, they bring in Engelland.

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02-04-2011, 02:56 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Aud Won View Post
If you are comparing Despres to any of our top four I don't think Despres would do as favorably, although his upside is considerable. When you are talking about Goose then I think Despres stacks up very well for the reasons I previously stated.

And no Despres isn't a Malkin, but when you compare Despres to Goose it's far from conclusive that Goose overall is the better player. And in fact based on youth, upside and size it's a very strong possibility that Despres passes him up in a year or two. Which is why I'd hold on to him moreso than Goose.
The only upside that Despres currently has on Goligoski is size and probably skating ability. Age is irrelevant because Goligoski is only 25.

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02-04-2011, 02:56 PM
  #116
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Today Goligoski is more valuable than Despres. One is a top 30 offensive D-man in the NHL and the other is a very good prospect. In the future it's less clear.

Understanding he's a work in progress, may be nothing more than a fringe NHLer or AHL legend, etc. etc. I'm very high on Despres. Imagine a 6'4" 220 lbs Kris Letang except with just very good skating instead of elite. That is what Despres could be in a perfect world. It will take him time before he can think the game at the NHL level and he needs to find that mean streak consistently, but in no way does Goligoski ever bring that much.

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02-04-2011, 02:58 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
I'm not assuming anything. I watch hockey games. I don't have to project. Goligoski is probably our most naturally talented defenseman offensively. He has also proven, for stretches, that he can be quite good in his own end, play a responsible defensive game, and really fuel our quick transitioning system.

The thing that Goligoski is missing is not ability, it's consistency. I watched him last season for 20 games before he was injured play at a 2010-11 Letang level. He is very capable, and I think if you paired him with one player consistently, his defense would be better for it. Once he gets a rapport with Engelland, they bring in Lovejoy. Once he gets a rapport with Lovejoy, they bring in Engelland.
You might be right on some of your assertions and at times Gogo does look like a world beater. But as you stated he's rather inconsistent, and that is a trend that has been evident in his game since coming here. Maybe he'll stabilize in that realm, maybe not. But offensively he's very good just inconsistent.

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02-04-2011, 03:02 PM
  #118
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The only upside that Despres currently has on Goligoski is size and probably skating ability. Age is irrelevant because Goligoski is only 25.
Two things,

1.You are more likely to evolve far more prevalently at age 19 then you are at age 25

2.The reasons you yourself cited are pretty good reasons to be optimistic about his potential.

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02-04-2011, 03:05 PM
  #119
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Today Goligoski is more valuable than Despres. One is a top 30 offensive D-man in the NHL and the other is a very good prospect. In the future it's less clear.

Understanding he's a work in progress, may be nothing more than a fringe NHLer or AHL legend, etc. etc. I'm very high on Despres. Imagine a 6'4" 220 lbs Kris Letang except with just very good skating instead of elite. That is what Despres could be in a perfect world. It will take him time before he can think the game at the NHL level and he needs to find that mean streak consistently, but in no way does Goligoski ever bring that much.
The reason why Despres dropped so far in the draft (a good portion of valuable opinions had him a top 15 talent), was because of his hockey IQ and decision making. Now, that could have improved. I don't know. What I do know is that he's playing in a league where he is better than 95% of the players. You're not getting a solid look if there is any marked improvement in what was a question mark for him in the past.

Despres could very end up being a Ryan Whitney without the offense. A big guy who is a good skater, who has the ability to make a great 1st pass and join the rush, but has ridiculous lapses in judgement and doesn't play as physical as his size suggests he should.

I also don't want anyone to take what I'm saying in this thread that I'm anti-Despres or anything. It's just people who rank prospects ahead of currently PRODUCTIVE NHL players irks me a bit.

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02-04-2011, 03:07 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Aud Won View Post
Two things,

1.You are more likely to evolve far more prevalently at age 19 then you are at age 25

2.The reasons you yourself cited are pretty good reasons to be optimistic about his potential.
What's the difference between a guy who is 5'10 and doesn't hit v. a guy who is 6'4 and doesn't hit?

EDIT: And I wouldn't use age as a barometer to determine if a guy is done developing or not. I would be more inclined to use how many seasons he has been in the NHL. Goligoski isn't a finished product, and even if he is, he's still a middle pairing defenseman, which is a successful draft pick.


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02-04-2011, 03:18 PM
  #121
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Being a smart ass is not a way to have people respect anything you say (but it looks like you're well on your way there). You can question my knowledge to somehow lend credibility to what you're saying, but it doesn't work and it only makes you look worse.

Saying Goligoski is a #5 is like saying Martin is a #3 or a Michalek is a #4 or Malkin is a 2nd line center. You absolutely love assigning concrete numbers to players and units, for some reason. Goligoski is a middle pairing, PMD, who can QB a powerplay. He's not a #5, and is only a #5 because of the 4 guys who are ahead of him.

What this team needs is a guy like Robert Bortuzzo actually. Pairing him with Goligoski next year will give us a very solid, well rounded bottom pairing. That is the guy we need. Despres is a luxury.

Maybe if you would do a little research on Voracek you would see that he's a legitimate top 6 option who is quite young, very well rounded, and hasn't reached his potential yet.



Yeah, because you have the very flawed HF mentality.

picks > prospects > players
That jumped out at me as well. Any chance he's related to the Oilers fan who likes to make trade proposals based on fractions?

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02-04-2011, 03:21 PM
  #122
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He's CChiefs cousin

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02-04-2011, 03:23 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
What's the difference between a guy who is 5'10 and doesn't hit v. a guy who is 6'4 and doesn't hit?

EDIT: And I wouldn't use age as a barometer to determine if a guy is done developing or not. I would be more inclined to use how many seasons he has been in the NHL. Goligoski isn't a finished product, and even if he is, he's still a middle pairing defenseman, which is a successful draft pick.
Goose is definitely a successful pick, I never stated anything to the contrary. I just have more faith in Despres ascending to a higher level with time and experience. Also, there is no question that a 19 yr old has far more potential and ability to improve his talents than a guy who's 25. And who's to say that Despres won't hit? That's your opinion but he was pretty aggressive in the WJC's.

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02-04-2011, 03:26 PM
  #124
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I'm CChiefs cousin
You probably are.

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02-04-2011, 03:28 PM
  #125
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So, how about those deadline wingers?

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