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02-07-2011, 09:08 AM
  #301
MattTheMask
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Dorsett is 33rd in the entire NHL in penalties drawn per 60 minutes, with almost 2 per game. Yeah I will take that I think he is better than you think. Oh, and he leads the team in that category!!! Here is the link. http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+45+46#snip=f

And his individual penalties taken, is LESS, than those of the drawn.

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02-07-2011, 09:11 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by kshymkiw View Post
My feeling is his play - is redundant. There is guys who compete just as hard - who don't take the dumb penalties.

Dorsett's roll is pretty redundant, and I think Murray - while he won't take the roughing/fighting calls will compete and forecheck just as hard. The guy is a -12 with 109 PIM's. I don't think he is adding much value at this point. I say you give Murray a chance to play more.
IMO Jared Boll is more important player for us than Dorsett. When I see stats not only play. He (Dorse) plays with heart but it makes many players from Falcons too, for example Goertzen, Frischmon... so do we call them? No. But if we want good player, call Sestito and trade or waive Dorsett. Put Sestito to Boll and MacKenzie and we have an axcelent 4th line. Calvert and Murray can play in the third line with Pahlsson and we should speed, hard third line. And speed it what we very need. Not tragic Dorsett play.

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02-07-2011, 09:23 AM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattTheMask View Post
Dorsett is 33rd in the entire NHL in penalties drawn per 60 minutes, with almost 2 per game. Yeah I will take that I think he is better than you think. Oh, and he leads the team in that category!!! Here is the link. http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+45+46#snip=f

And his individual penalties taken, is LESS, than those of the drawn.
And Matt Calvert is 35th. That list is worthless. It would be worth something if each guy played 20-30 mins per night, like Evgeni Malkin is, or Jeff Skinner.

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02-07-2011, 09:25 AM
  #304
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I don't think there are many players on this team that compete as hard are Dorse does.
Absolutely. Night in, night out, Dorsett competes harder than anyone on the team. He lacks talent, but his desire and work ethic are outstanding. If he was a bigger guy with a some scoring touch, we'd have an Umberger clone. I don't think he's fully grown into a 3rd line role yet, but if hard work can get him there, it won't be long before he does.

Murray plays the game hard too, I'm not knocking him. The 4th line has been a big part of our success these last few weeks.

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02-07-2011, 09:47 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by kshymkiw View Post
And Matt Calvert is 35th. That list is worthless. It would be worth something if each guy played 20-30 mins per night, like Evgeni Malkin is, or Jeff Skinner.
Couldn't disagree with you more. It is very far from being worthless. Mentioning Calvert only means that they haven't removed some of the players from a game played requirement. Which only matters for those below Calvert anyway.

I suppose PROD in hockey is worthless and WHIP in baseball.

What is kind of funny is that neither player you mentioned is actually averaging 20 minutes a night.

It loses some meaning since they play on different lines, which means different match ups. But it isn't worthless and it is illustrating that Dorse does, indeed, draw a good amount of penalties.

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02-07-2011, 09:58 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Couldn't disagree with you more. It is very far from being worthless. Mentioning Calvert only means that they haven't removed some of the players from a game played requirement. Which only matters for those below Calvert anyway.

I suppose PROD in hockey is worthless and WHIP in baseball.

What is kind of funny is that neither player you mentioned is actually averaging 20 minutes a night.

It loses some meaning since they play on different lines, which means different match ups. But it isn't worthless and it is illustrating that Dorse does, indeed, draw a good amount of penalties.
Damn, I'm impressed you pulled this up. I had to look it up to see what WHIP means.

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02-07-2011, 10:01 AM
  #307
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I'm going to be making the GDT for when the Pens play you guys on Tuesday. Is there any lineup changes that I should know of?

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02-07-2011, 10:03 AM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Couldn't disagree with you more. It is very far from being worthless. Mentioning Calvert only means that they haven't removed some of the players from a game played requirement. Which only matters for those below Calvert anyway.

I suppose PROD in hockey is worthless and WHIP in baseball.

What is kind of funny is that neither player you mentioned is actually averaging 20 minutes a night.

It loses some meaning since they play on different lines, which means different match ups. But it isn't worthless and it is illustrating that Dorse does, indeed, draw a good amount of penalties.
Seriously - Look at the list again. There is obvious issues with it.

Malkin is 19:49 per night - may as well be 20
Skinner is much lower than I thought.

As with all Real Time Stats - Blocked Shots, Hits, etc.... The fact of him drawing a penalty is completely subjective to the person who is recording the stats.

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02-07-2011, 10:26 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by kshymkiw View Post
Seriously - Look at the list again. There is obvious issues with it.
I've looked at it. I see nothing obviously wrong with it. I think you've strayed a long ways off course with the minutes per game argument. Strike-Outs PIP is still valuable as a closer or a starter. It's a way to compare against his peers in similar roles. So if you want an example, compare him to Tootoo. It's up to you to use the stat as you think best. At 35th, he's going to be higher then most players in the league with the same role.

Quote:
As with all Real Time Stats - Blocked Shots, Hits, etc.... The fact of him drawing a penalty is completely subjective to the person who is recording the stats.
And what criteria do you think they are using? Do you think that a high stick that it is only listed as "drawn" 50% or less of the time? Do you think they only list an interference call as "drawn" 50% or less of the time? Do you think they are saying a trip isn't "drawn" if it was deemed incidental? If you are in the receiving end of a penalty, that's pretty easy to track

Honestly, I highly doubt that stat is anywhere near as subjective as hits for example.

Either way is penalties on-ice for and on-ice against are pretty even, which indicates the penalty calls are not disproportional.

You are right that he has taken some bad penalties, but I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as you are making it out to be. Do I think Dorse draws a penalty once every 2 or 3 games? Sure. And that's pretty much all that stat is telling me.


Last edited by blahblah: 02-07-2011 at 10:33 AM.
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02-07-2011, 11:05 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by kshymkiw View Post
Seriously - Look at the list again. There is obvious issues with it.

Malkin is 19:49 per night - may as well be 20
Skinner is much lower than I thought.

As with all Real Time Stats - Blocked Shots, Hits, etc.... The fact of him drawing a penalty is completely subjective to the person who is recording the stats.
Drawing a penalty is not subjective, off-ice officials denote every penalty and who it was committed on. If you look at the penalty tracker on GameCenter you can see this very clearly. Also, if you want to remove the outliers, make it a minimum of 30GP for the players listed, and suddenly Dorsett's 1.8 penalties drawn per 60 minutes of playing is tied for the top 10 with players like Rick Nash and Sidney Crosby. That is not a subjective number, the only thing I will note is that Dorsett, as a fighter will have a slightly higher number due to his fights, but take those out of the equation and he will still be high.

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02-07-2011, 11:11 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
Absolutely. Night in, night out, Dorsett competes harder than anyone on the team. He lacks talent, but his desire and work ethic are outstanding. If he was a bigger guy with a some scoring touch, we'd have an Umberger clone. I don't think he's fully grown into a 3rd line role yet, but if hard work can get him there, it won't be long before he does.

Murray plays the game hard too, I'm not knocking him. The 4th line has been a big part of our success these last few weeks.
Dorsett has not hockey sense and talent for the third line.He never would be Umby clone. He played there only for his big heart. Give so many chances Boller there and we will see better game. Or Murray and especially Calvert. I understand you like him for his heart but heart is not all. And it is Columbus mistake, prefer players which hard play and do not see on his hockey qualities.

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02-07-2011, 11:12 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by astall35 View Post
Drawing a penalty is not subjective, off-ice officials denote every penalty and who it was committed on. If you look at the penalty tracker on GameCenter you can see this very clearly. Also, if you want to remove the outliers, make it a minimum of 30GP for the players listed, and suddenly Dorsett's 1.8 penalties drawn per 60 minutes of playing is tied for the top 10 with players like Rick Nash and Sidney Crosby. That is not a subjective number, the only thing I will note is that Dorsett, as a fighter will have a slightly higher number due to his fights, but take those out of the equation and he will still be high.
...The same off-ice officials who can't seem to consistently count Hits/Blocked Shots/Takeaways.

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02-07-2011, 11:24 AM
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
Dorsett has not hockey sense and talent for the third line.He never would be Umby clone. He played there only for his big heart. Give so many chances Boller there and we will see better game. Or Murray and especially Calvert. I understand you like him for his heart but heart is not all. And it is Columbus mistake, prefer players which hard play and do not see on his hockey qualities.
This is the truth. This franchise valued guys like Shelley so highly. Heart will only get you so far, then it becomes a matter of skill and Hockey Sense. Dorsett has 1 of these 3, and that is heart. He should be in the AHL showing his heart to guys who have the other 2 talents and can make it to the NHL, as guys with Hockey Sense and Talent - usually lack heart.

This franchise needs to recognize talent when they have it - and stop assuming heart is going to win game in and game out.

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...The same off-ice officials who can't seem to consistently count Hits/Blocked Shots/Takeaways.
I have just come to realize - I will agree to disagree on stats. No official sees anything the same. A high stick or a trip - yes those are blatant, the calls that aren't so blatant are the ones I am talking about.

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02-07-2011, 11:29 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by kshymkiw View Post
I have just come to realize - I will agree to disagree on stats. No official sees anything the same. A high stick or a trip - yes those are blatant, the calls that aren't so blatant are the ones I am talking about.
Advanced Stats in hockey have little usage. There's not close to enough standardization to use them as some have tried to do.

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02-07-2011, 11:50 AM
  #315
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...The same off-ice officials who can't seem to consistently count Hits/Blocked Shots/Takeaways.
There's a huge difference with crediting a hit and picking out the number of the guy that JoeBob tripped.

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02-07-2011, 03:23 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by kshymkiw View Post
And Matt Calvert is 35th. That list is worthless. It would be worth something if each guy played 20-30 mins per night, like Evgeni Malkin is, or Jeff Skinner.
Dorse is only 0.1 behind Malkin. Thats nothing.

The fact is you said earlier that he wasnt adding much value, questioned him taking penalties and then were provided a solid, factual chart that clearly shows him drawing almost 2 penalties per 60mins.

And if you got rid of the Calverts of the world who have only played a couple handful's worth of games, then he is Top 10!!!!! That is real significant! Yet you now try to blow it off, and say its worthless??? Come on now. You can admit he is adding more value and doing better than you thought

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02-07-2011, 03:32 PM
  #317
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Advanced Stats in hockey have little usage. There's not close to enough standardization to use them as some have tried to do.
But... but... but I thought stats never lie!

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02-07-2011, 03:33 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
Dorsett has not hockey sense and talent for the third line.He never would be Umby clone. He played there only for his big heart. Give so many chances Boller there and we will see better game. Or Murray and especially Calvert. I understand you like him for his heart but heart is not all. And it is Columbus mistake, prefer players which hard play and do not see on his hockey qualities.
That's the downfall of this team. We continue to fill the locker room with mediocre players because they work hard and that makes everyone happy

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02-07-2011, 03:34 PM
  #319
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But... but... but I thought stats never lie!
Only hits. And it happens to be the most important stat out there.

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02-07-2011, 05:20 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by MattTheMask View Post
Dorse is only 0.1 behind Malkin. Thats nothing.

The fact is you said earlier that he wasnt adding much value, questioned him taking penalties and then were provided a solid, factual chart that clearly shows him drawing almost 2 penalties per 60mins.
But logically wouldn't drawing penalties be HURTING the team since our PP sucks and we keep giving up shorties?

On a more serious note, I just don't see a spot on this team for all the 3rd/4th liners we have. Most people equate the decision to Dorsett vs. Boll. If that's what it comes down to, I'll take Boll anyday of the week. Nothing against Dorsett, he plays his heart out, but Boll has just a slight edge in offensive abilities and Boll is bigger [though not by much]. Boll also seems to be a little bit smarter about the way he plays hockey. If you want to complain about the "glass-checking" he does, let me say one thing. I play low-end hockey in a non-hitting league with guys who have trouble skating/stopping. You better believe a guy slamming into the glass behind me gets my attention almost as much as if the guy had actually hit me.

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