You can bash all you want on Gauthier. But his trademark move was to get Halak out and Price in. And that move has proven to be a FRANCHISE move as important as a MAJOR trade.
You can bash all you want on Gauthier. But his trademark move was to get Halak out and Price in. And that move has proven to be a FRANCHISE move as important as a MAJOR trade.
You are completely off topic. Also, you're bring up something that's already been discussed here a dozen times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaDevilGirl
He might be moving his picks but as others have said previously, he's been trading for prospects so it's not like he's emptying the team's prospect pool.
Gainey was criticized for not moving much.
Gainey tries to land UFAs but fails, he's criticized for not being able to seal deals.
Gainey decides to go for a total rebuild, signs a bunch of UFAs, he's criticized for bringing in smurfs and old slow Dmen.
Gauthier takes over, is being relatively active, trying things, and now he's trading away too many picks..
I'm really starting to believe some fans would find things to criticize the organization on even if we win the Cup.
Gauthier used to be a scout, if there's one man that can put a lot of importance on youth and picks, I'd bet on Gauthier.
Gauthier has done a great job til this day, look this team is very solid, most teams better than us have had 4,5 horrible seasons and rebuilt through the draft (Wash, Pitt, Chi, TB) and then there's the teams such as the Wings, again drafting gems but in later round and then teams like Philly that lucked out in 2003.
Basically for a team not necessarily built through the draft, we're as good as it gets.
Bottom line is you either gotta tank a couple seasons or have an out of this world scouting department and development system, we have neither of these, but what this organization has accomplished still deserves respect.
Trading picks? If not for Moore, we DO NOT pass over the Caps, no matter what. The guy was a machine in the playoffs. To be honest, Pierre Gauthier has been a pleasant surprise. He's made some astute David Dombrowski-like moves: Eller for Halak (who's been subpar this season, no matter how you look into), Moore, Wiz... I mean, he's not the type to bring over-the-hill talent. He brings people in their prime. I love that. Bob failed in that department.
You are completely off topic. Also, you're bring up something that's already been discussed here a dozen times.
read post 12
Here's the part of "post 12" I found interesting.
You have a point, granted.
But a 2nd and a 3rd last year (Moore + Tinordi deals) and a 2nd this year (the Wiz) would have generated one 18 and two 19 year olds: plays who would be ready say 3 or 4 years from now.
Replace WOULD wth COULD and then reconsider how terrible it is to deal 2nd round picks. Montreal has been a playoff lately, team meaning the 2nd rounder has typically been in the 50th range overall. The odds are pretty slim that the team is going to find a surefire player with such a pick. And yes I know about Subban and Lats among others.
In 2006 Montreal traded back (effectively the opposite of the Tinordi deal) moving back 4 spots and getting SJ's 2nd rounder. And with two 2nd round picks Montreal took Ben Maxwell and Mathieu Carle. So here we sit four years later and I'm not giddy about getting the Ben Maxwell era underway. He might end up as a marginal NHLer or not. Basically as good as Halpern who we acquired as a UFA for near minimum salary.
Picks are nice. It's great to have as many kicks at the can as possible. But beyond the 1st round the draft is in no way shape or form a sure thing. Call me old school, but I still cling to the hopeless fantasy that actual NHL player > middling draft pick.
Now if PG starts peddling off first rounders and top prospects to chase the playoffs that's a different matter, but for now the moves PG has made do not appear short sighted at all.
I'm mo fan of Gauthier but trading prospects for missing pieces is far from bad. A 2nd for The Wiz when Gorges and Markov are done like diner, how is that a bad move? Moving UP in the draft to grab a better prospect... that is bad? Dealing a hot goalie for two kids with a lot of promise is bad, too? Even Moore was a good trade. He was key in the Habs run.
I'm suprised you didn't mention Tanguay (Or was that Gainey!?!)
Say Gauthier gives up a 2nd for phillips, a rugged, gritty veteran defenceman, you'd be upset?
Game seven... Phillips or Picard? Which one do you want on the ice??
Draft picks and prospects are not guarenteed to become key cogs.
Realists place more importance on the present than the future...
A player not signing again and walking away UFA is not exactly a huge, doom and gloom loss as most people may think because most people forget the valuable cap space it frees up for a replacement...(Mind you if you are not going to keep a player and let him walk away it would be wise to trade him for picks and then use those picks even more wisely to trade for someone who can help you in the present)
I didn't like the Moore trade, understand the Wisniewski deal, and I didn't like trading up for Tinordi.
So, he's 1 for 3 in my books.
By getting to the ECF (not possible without Moore) the Habs dropped ito #27 n the drafting order. If Gauthier hadn't traded for Moore they would have lost to the Caps and had the #15 pick. Was getting to the ECF not worth it? Once they fell to #27 they had virtually no chance of landing Tinordi. a player Gauthier had his eye on. If you don't like the trade to move up you must not like Tinordi.
Are you forgetting that the Habs got back a 2nd round pick because Gauthier opted not to sign Fischer?
If you're going to complain about trading away draft picks, then consider how Gainey screwed the Habs in the trade for Tanguay. It's not as bad as the Kessel trade but it's close enough. At least the Leafs still have Kessel.
The team is dealing from a position of strength, it is able to deal away picks because of all the youth already on the team and waiting in the ranks.
9/22 players in yesterday's win vs the Rangers were under 25, AK is 26, Pleks is 28, Wiz is 26, Cammy is 28 .... that is over half the team that played yesterday under 28 + Gorges is 26.
This without even counting the young players coming up, Leblanc, Tinordi, Nash, Carle, etc..
We are able to deal away picks because we have a VERY young team, despite what people say about our core being old.
By getting to the ECF (not possible without Moore) the Habs dropped ito #27 n the drafting order. If Gauthier hadn't traded for Moore they would have lost to the Caps and had the #15 pick. Was getting to the ECF not worth it? Once they fell to #27 they had virtually no chance of landing Tinordi. a player Gauthier had his eye on. If you don't like the trade to move up you must not like Tinordi.
Are you forgetting that the Habs got back a 2nd round pick because Gauthier opted not to sign Fischer?
If you're going to complain about trading away draft picks, then consider how Gainey screwed the Habs in the trade for Tanguay. It's not as bad as the Kessel trade but it's close enough. At least the Leafs still have Kessel.
How on earth can you compare the Kessel trade to the Tanguay trade? Please name me the players we lost for Tanguay and look atthe impact theyre likely to have in the NHL.
As for trading to get Moore, i agree 100%. also,beyond making it to the ecf, as someone mentionned, it allowed Halak to up his value and get us a guy like Eller. No Moore=no Eller.
Gainey was criticized for not moving much.
Gainey tries to land UFAs but fails, he's criticized for not being able to seal deals.
Gainey decides to go for a total rebuild, signs a bunch of UFAs, he's criticized for bringing in smurfs and old slow Dmen.
Gauthier takes over, is being relatively active, trying things, and now he's trading away too many picks..
I'm really starting to believe some fans would find things to criticize the organization on even if we win the Cup.
Gauthier used to be a scout, if there's one man that can put a lot of importance on youth and picks, I'd bet on Gauthier.
Wow. We actually have fans with some perspective...I'm ****ing shocked...and no it's not sarcastic.
agreed...
PG has a farm team that is rocking, so this team my not have a crosby or OV in the wings to come up, but they have depth.
IF a team like the habs when they can make a run, and improve by a trade can, they do it.
$$$ is needed by playoff runs', it help down the road to sign, and attract FA's, hopefully, PG will be that type of GM to attract FA's because of his wanting to go far in the spring.....
by the way, this team needs beef on the wings, i know i sound like a broken record.
Long term prospects can be had from late round draft picks. People here ***** about high picks that take long to develop, so I don't see the problem with bringing in near ready NHL Prospects and trading away high picks to make the team better as long as we still have our low picks to draft project players.
But a 2nd and a 3rd last year (Moore + Tinordi deals) and a 2nd this year (the Wiz) would have generated one 18 and two 19 year olds: plays who would be ready say 3 or 4 years from now.
All the prospects we acquired are AHL or NHL players right now (except for Bournival).
Palushaj is a 2nd year AHLer. Festerleng is there for AHL depth (like Carle). Schultz is an AHL player. Eller has just broken in the NHL.
These are all pro players right now. The picks we are dealing would only become pros 2 or 3 years from now. Who we will be breaking into the NHL for us then?
But hows that a bad thing? They're still RFA like any other young prospect. They're still more NHL ready than a straight up NHL pick, and they're choosing players they see something in this way who have at least played some pro.
As others have said, if we didn't have decent prospect depth I'd be less in favour of it, but we do, so I don't see it as a big deal since we're not talking about elite-level picks or anything.
Things being equal, I would rather have more ripened prospects like Eller than someone who's earlier in the development process.
Trading D'agostoni for a prospect
Trading Halak for two prospect
Trading O'byrne for a prospect
Trading Lapierre for a prospect and a Pick
So no I don't think PG is selling the future
I see your point, but it's very possible that not one useful NHL'er will come from this sequence of trades and 4 young NHL ready players were sent in the opposite direction.
If you add the S. Kostitsyn give away , and 3 second round pick giveaways into the mix there's a good argument that Gauthier is making Montreal a development team for the rest of the league. As has been said trades are a situational thing, the trade for Moore was a mistake, the trade for Wisniewski a little more strategic, and the play for Tinordi will play out over the next 3-5 years so it's tough to evaluate now.
there are no guarantees that the 2nd round players (the habs could have drafted) would amount to something substantial
so I am okay with the deals, seeing as PG has been able to get some young talent back in some recent trades
I see your point, but it's very possible that not one useful NHL'er will come from this sequence of trades and 4 young NHL ready players were sent in the opposite direction.
If you add the S. Kostitsyn give away , and 3 second round pick giveaways into the mix there's a good argument that Gauthier is making Montreal a development team for the rest of the league. As has been said trades are a situational thing, the trade for Moore was a mistake, the trade for Wisniewski a little more strategic, and the play for Tinordi will play out over the next 3-5 years so it's tough to evaluate now.
The exact same thing can be said for any picks we have. No guarantees with 1st round picks let alone 2nd and 3rds. Fact of the matter is there is a major drop off after the top 10-15 players in almost every draft. And it continues to drop off after the 1st round. A second round pick isn't the be all end all even if there are gems to be had.
I'll take the Dominic Moore trade any day. He was incredible for us. At the time I'll agree that I thought it was a bit of an overpayment. But I think there was also a second outcome of that trade that we didn't see. It raised the value of those depth guys and we didn't see a lot of similar moves come the deadline. Price was a bit too high and some fringe teams that were near us in the standings decided not to bother going after Moore type guys and we squeezed ourselves into the playoffs.
I didn't like the Moore trade, understand the Wisniewski deal, and I didn't like trading up for Tinordi.
So, he's 1 for 3 in my books.
I agree up to a certain point but I'm sure we all jumped up in the air screaming and singing after Moore scored the GWG against the Caps and help us eliminate them. The Caps last year went after Belanger and it costed them the same thing, a 2nd rounder, so we might not like the move but it's what the price was to pay around the league IMO. Tinordi I don't know much of him right now, so i can't say good or bad I assume you preferred another player at that spot that was available.
To be honest, I expected much worse from Gauthier when we heard him taking over
