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Is Gauthier right to deal so many picks?

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Old
02-07-2011, 11:45 AM
  #51
WestIslander
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In my opinion, trading away 1st, 2nd and 3rd round draft picks is dangerous and seeing how we got Subban, Kristo, Maxwell, Carle and Latendresse with 2nd round draft picks, it might come back to bite us.

Look at the following:

2010
- Montreal had 5 draft picks and none in the 2nd or 3rd round(s).

2009
- Montreal had 8 draft picks and none in the 2nd round.

2008
- Montreal had 5 draft picks and none in the 1st round.

Montreal is lacking draft picks and the future is thin now, there is no DEPTH on defense until Tinordi is NHL ready along with Bennett and Ellis.

Montreal is also lacking LW prospects that can score and size at centre.

If I were Montreal, I would try to get another 1st round or 2nd round pick at this years draft and move up again to choose another defenseman or centre with size, Eller, Leblanc have potential, but we need a Couturier, Huberdeau or Rask.

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02-07-2011, 01:04 PM
  #52
AlexGalchenyuk94
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Let's hope we don't trade for Kaberle, that would definatedly cost a 1st, probably + Weber also.

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02-07-2011, 01:06 PM
  #53
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i'd be shocked as hell if PG gives up a 1st

The most I see him giving up is a White / Kristo and late pick range

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02-07-2011, 01:14 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
i'd be shocked as hell if PG gives up a 1st
Why's that?

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02-07-2011, 01:38 PM
  #55
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If I'm PG I'm doing one of two things: standing pat OR making two deals, where I trade either Pouliot or AK for a draft pick (hopefully a 2nd or 3rd) and I make a trade for someone like Jason Arnott. That would be efficient managing imo. People might be angry that that would be all you'd get for those guys, but such is life. I really feel sorry for PG because he's in super tough spot with these enigmatic players. I really don't envy him, because you know that whatever he chooses to do with them he'll probably be heavily criticized, especially in AK's case. Imagines if he trades him--it won't be for enough in return people will say. Imagine if we keep him and re-sign him next year, and he continues to play inconsistently throughout the playoffs and all of next year--people will be furious we didn't get rid of him sooner. And i'm getting sick of hearing that it's all Martin's fault, that he doesn't know how to deal with these guys. Eff that. I'll go as far as saying that even if AK puts it altogether one day, he still wouldn't be a great fit on this team. AK would work on a team that is going nowhere where he can play 20 minutes a game + 1st line pp duties, or on a team that already has an excellent team and he can just come in and add on goals. Montreal, in more ways than one, needs players with amazingly high levels of fortitude and resilience, which AK clearly has little of. And if you look at the last few drafts, FA pickups and trades, you can see that management has really figured out that these qualities are almost more important than talent. It seems that almost every one of our draftees (+Bournival) is a captain on their respective team (or has high leadership skills), that guys we sign or trade for care more about the team then their own stats. These are the kind of guys you need on a team to gut out wins, which is pretty much how we win every game. And I'm not trying to *hit on guys like Pouliot and AK; as a fan i want these guys to succeed like you can't believe. But if I'm putting on my GM thinking cap, and trying to live a day in his shoes, well then this is what I think I'd do.

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02-07-2011, 02:10 PM
  #56
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They're consistent in their philosophy to win now and they should be.

When we signed Cammy, Gionta, Moen, Gill, Spacek and traded for Gomez we decided to try to be competitive right now. Gainey/Gauthier tried to build a winning team in a short time via trades and free agency. Whether you agree they have succeeded or not, the logical follow up to this is trying to add the missing pieces. Not doing anything now would be worse than anything (ie good enough to make the playoffs but clearly not good enough to win once in and nothing done to upgrade the team).

Since we did make that choice, I expect and demand that PG does everything possible to improve the team, especially if all it costs are 2nd round picks.

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02-07-2011, 02:21 PM
  #57
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Weiss is the perfect fit IMO. Decent player, and we wouldn't have to give up all that much. Plus, he's still signed after this season.

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02-07-2011, 02:43 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by PKSubban View Post
Weiss is the perfect fit IMO. Decent player, and we wouldn't have to give up all that much. Plus, he's still signed after this season.
Well yeah he's good and at least he's an improvement on the FO circle (54%). But is he really available? The guy has such a manageable contract (3.1M cap hit) and regardless of what Florida's cap floor is, you don't trade away guys like that, unless you get an awesome return. And lets be honest, it would be a headache to figure out who plays center and on which line for the rest of the year and the two after that. Unless him or Gomez is willing to play wing or 3rd line center for the rest of their respective contract--but I doubt they would. Say what you want about Gomez, but he hasn't lost a step and is suddenly in the decline of his career--the guy is just having an off year where the exact same passes he was making last year are just not being finished. There are games when he gets two assists and there are games where he gets nothing, and i honestly don't notice much of a difference in his game. He's never been one to be a guy who wins lots of battles along the boards or scores lots of goals--he's always been a passer, pure and simple. So if you bring in a guy like Weiss for the next couple of years, all its going to do is create a problem on the team. And don't say "well we'll just trade Gomez" because you know that's not going to happen. I would pick up a center at the deadline, but only as a short term solution to help us in the playoffs. In the long run, what this team needs is guys who actually can finish with consistency at the wing position, not more centers.

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02-07-2011, 03:12 PM
  #59
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Kaberle for a 1st round draft pick and Weber made me laugh!

If you give either a 1st round draft pick or Weber for Kaberle (one or the other) Burke would be jumping for joy!

Kaberle is not worth a 1st round draft pick and nor will Burke get that for him.

If anything:

To Toronto: Andrei Kostitsyn
To Montreal: Tomas Kaberle

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02-07-2011, 03:14 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
Well yeah he's good and at least he's an improvement on the FO circle (54%). But is he really available? The guy has such a manageable contract (3.1M cap hit) and regardless of what Florida's cap floor is, you don't trade away guys like that, unless you get an awesome return. And lets be honest, it would be a headache to figure out who plays center and on which line for the rest of the year and the two after that. Unless him or Gomez is willing to play wing or 3rd line center for the rest of their respective contract--but I doubt they would. Say what you want about Gomez, but he hasn't lost a step and is suddenly in the decline of his career--the guy is just having an off year where the exact same passes he was making last year are just not being finished. There are games when he gets two assists and there are games where he gets nothing, and i honestly don't notice much of a difference in his game. He's never been one to be a guy who wins lots of battles along the boards or scores lots of goals--he's always been a passer, pure and simple. So if you bring in a guy like Weiss for the next couple of years, all its going to do is create a problem on the team. And don't say "well we'll just trade Gomez" because you know that's not going to happen. I would pick up a center at the deadline, but only as a short term solution to help us in the playoffs. In the long run, what this team needs is guys who actually can finish with consistency at the wing position, not more centers.
While I agree with some of your points, I disagree on Gomez. He hasn't been a star player for years. Weiss has a 3.1 million cap hit. Hamrlik's contract at 5.5 million is off the books after this year, as is Hal Gill's 2.2 and even possibly Markov's 5.75 to accomodate Weiss' contract AND keep Gomez. That would give us a centre-core of Plekanec, Weiss and Gomez.

That leaves 10 mill, or 4 mill (depending on Markov resigning, to go to a defenseman or multiple defenseman to take Hamrlik's and Gill's spots. Easily done, especially if a rookie makes a jump.

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02-07-2011, 03:15 PM
  #61
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Who is this Gauthier you guys speak of ? And does anyone know who the GM of the Montreal Canadiens is ? You would think they would have realized by now they need help in the goal scoring department !

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02-07-2011, 03:17 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
Kaberle for a 1st round draft pick and Weber made me laugh!

If you give either a 1st round draft pick or Weber for Kaberle (one or the other) Burke would be jumping for joy!

Kaberle is not worth a 1st round draft pick and nor will Burke get that for him.

If anything:

To Toronto: Andrei Kostitsyn
To Montreal: Tomas Kaberle
Kaberle is a top 10 defenseman in the league. I guess your Habs coloured glasses and the fact he hasn't had a team to work with in years have made you forget that or maybe not ever realize it in the first place. Maybe a 1st + Weber is steep (depending on how you judge Weber - personally I think his cap is a 4-6 defenseman. But Kaberle is worth a 1st round pick to be sure. Definately.

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02-07-2011, 03:29 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
Well yeah he's good and at least he's an improvement on the FO circle (54%). But is he really available? The guy has such a manageable contract (3.1M cap hit) and regardless of what Florida's cap floor is, you don't trade away guys like that, unless you get an awesome return. And lets be honest, it would be a headache to figure out who plays center and on which line for the rest of the year and the two after that. Unless him or Gomez is willing to play wing or 3rd line center for the rest of their respective contract--but I doubt they would. Say what you want about Gomez, but he hasn't lost a step and is suddenly in the decline of his career--the guy is just having an off year where the exact same passes he was making last year are just not being finished. There are games when he gets two assists and there are games where he gets nothing, and i honestly don't notice much of a difference in his game. He's never been one to be a guy who wins lots of battles along the boards or scores lots of goals--he's always been a passer, pure and simple. So if you bring in a guy like Weiss for the next couple of years, all its going to do is create a problem on the team. And don't say "well we'll just trade Gomez" because you know that's not going to happen. I would pick up a center at the deadline, but only as a short term solution to help us in the playoffs. In the long run, what this team needs is guys who actually can finish with consistency at the wing position, not more centers.
This is what I've said for most of the season but there comes a point in time where you look at what he's paid versus his production. It is an off year but when guys like Gio can produce without him and can't with him, when they're supposedly good on chemistry, it does make you wonder what the **** is going on.

You can check my blog if you want I've been defending the guy all year making the exact same points you just made. There comes a time though where reasons whether they are just excuses or really just reasons hold no weight and you've simply got to perform.

I see Gomez on certain nights taking nights off. People say this about AK but I disagree. I see Gomez not playing his best a lot more than I see it from AK. Gomez is able to produce and I bet he'll show up where it matters in the post season. It is a bad season you are right and the bounces and finishing hasn't been there. But can you really not fault Gomez for some of it? Also the fans have every right to be mad, I just think it's placed with the wrong person. I love PG and Gainey but really they traded for an overpaid player and he is what he is, an overpaid guy who will show up for you when it counts in the post season.

That being said people shouldn't be mad the Gomez jumped on a lucrative offer from one of the best teams to play for in the league (location, NYC obviously) being paid a premium. Be mad at Sather, be mad at Gainey, heck be mad at the situation. Don't blame Gomez cause he's a 3.5 million dollar guy 4.5 million tops for his playoff effort, being paid 7 million+. You would've all taken the offer for sure even if you knew you weren't even a 5 million dollar player, to play in NYC? Forget it every single hypocrite here would be all over that as an American hockey player.

I think both sides have valid points and level headed people, but both sides have piss poor points and people who are just blindly loving or hating.

I tried to give Gomer a chance I really did, but he does need to pick up his game. I know he's started to but we play as a team. Everyone has to work hard even Gomer. I'm not saying he isn't trying I just find some nights he's invisible while other nights he plays with that flair he's used to having. He is making the same plays this year, just not nearly as effectively.

I don't doubt he's trying and that he wants to win, but when you're paid what he's paid it would be nice now and then to see him carry the team a little bit, even if that isn't the player he was meant to be, knowing how good he is in terms of talent we all know he's capable of it cause we've all seen him play in the playoffs.

All I can say is I love Gomez but he needs to step it up. I want to see Scott Gomez the NJD out there not Scott Gomez the overpaid NYR.

Or better yet maybe even one day Scott Gomez the Montreal Canadien.

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02-07-2011, 03:31 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by PKSubban View Post
While I agree with some of your points, I disagree on Gomez. He hasn't been a star player for years. Weiss has a 3.1 million cap hit. Hamrlik's contract at 5.5 million is off the books after this year, as is Hal Gill's 2.2 and even possibly Markov's 5.75 to accomodate Weiss' contract AND keep Gomez. That would give us a centre-core of Plekanec, Weiss and Gomez.

That leaves 10 mill, or 4 mill (depending on Markov resigning, to go to a defenseman or multiple defenseman to take Hamrlik's and Gill's spots. Easily done, especially if a rookie makes a jump.
Yeah it could work i suppose. I just it find extremely hard to believe that Florida would trade him, and if they did it would be for at least a top 10 pick next year, something we won't have to offer. If i was Florida i wouldn't even except Leblanc and a 1st rounder. Weiss and Booth are their future; they have nice manageable contracts for the next couple of years and you'd be dumb to trade them.

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02-07-2011, 03:40 PM
  #65
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I agree up to a certain point but I'm sure we all jumped up in the air screaming and singing after Moore scored the GWG against the Caps and help us eliminate them. The Caps last year went after Belanger and it costed them the same thing, a 2nd rounder, so we might not like the move but it's what the price was to pay around the league IMO. Tinordi I don't know much of him right now, so i can't say good or bad I assume you preferred another player at that spot that was available.

To be honest, I expected much worse from Gauthier when we heard him taking over
This has been written several times on this board. We don't know that this goal would not have been scored anyway, but let's assume it would not have. Would anyone be willing to trade away a second round draft pick every year if guaranteed the player would score a single GWG in the first round of the playoffs?

That's a bad trade off for me.

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02-07-2011, 03:52 PM
  #66
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This is what I've said for most of the season but there comes a point in time where you look at what he's paid versus his production. It is an off year but when guys like Gio can produce without him and can't with him, when they're supposedly good on chemistry, it does make you wonder what the **** is going on.

You can check my blog if you want I've been defending the guy all year making the exact same points you just made. There comes a time though where reasons whether they are just excuses or really just reasons hold no weight and you've simply got to perform.

I see Gomez on certain nights taking nights off. People say this about AK but I disagree. I see Gomez not playing his best a lot more than I see it from AK. Gomez is able to produce and I bet he'll show up where it matters in the post season. It is a bad season you are right and the bounces and finishing hasn't been there. But can you really not fault Gomez for some of it? Also the fans have every right to be mad, I just think it's placed with the wrong person. I love PG and Gainey but really they traded for an overpaid player and he is what he is, an overpaid guy who will show up for you when it counts in the post season.

That being said people shouldn't be mad the Gomez jumped on a lucrative offer from one of the best teams to play for in the league (location, NYC obviously) being paid a premium. Be mad at Sather, be mad at Gainey, heck be mad at the situation. Don't blame Gomez cause he's a 3.5 million dollar guy 4.5 million tops for his playoff effort, being paid 7 million+. You would've all taken the offer for sure even if you knew you weren't even a 5 million dollar player, to play in NYC? Forget it every single hypocrite here would be all over that as an American hockey player.

I think both sides have valid points and level headed people, but both sides have piss poor points and people who are just blindly loving or hating.

I tried to give Gomer a chance I really did, but he does need to pick up his game. I know he's started to but we play as a team. Everyone has to work hard even Gomer. I'm not saying he isn't trying I just find some nights he's invisible while other nights he plays with that flair he's used to having. He is making the same plays this year, just not nearly as effectively.

I don't doubt he's trying and that he wants to win, but when you're paid what he's paid it would be nice now and then to see him carry the team a little bit, even if that isn't the player he was meant to be, knowing how good he is in terms of talent we all know he's capable of it cause we've all seen him play in the playoffs.

All I can say is I love Gomez but he needs to step it up. I want to see Scott Gomez the NJD out there not Scott Gomez the overpaid NYR.

Or better yet maybe even one day Scott Gomez the Montreal Canadien.
Hard not to agree with everything you just said. Look, as i stated in another post, I'm just trying to see things from PG 's POV and figure out what direction the team should go in. It's all about finding that right mix of players to bring out the best in the supposed stars we have. Of course Gomez is overpaid, and he'll never live up to it. But it's not his fault, and he can only play his game and do his best. And yes, he has had a bunch of off games this year, but i think that has a lot more to do with the fact that the team struggles so hard to score goals that we analyze his game so much more acutely. Also, not many players in the league work as hard as Plekanec and Gionta, and unfortunately for Gomez he only gets compared to these guys. Strangely he doesn't get compared to Cammalieri, who is kind of just like him, just the "shooter" version of him. Both these guys need the right combination of players+mojo to be at their best--and they're also our highest paid players. I think that maybe the guy Gomez needs on his wing is a veteran guy, and not a guy who's always overthinking when he gets the puck on his stick. There aren't many guys like that on our team, and i think it would be worth it to try someone for the playoff run to see if it makes a difference. I mean lets face it, we know that Eller probably won't make a difference in this year's playoffs. I'd just send him down and pick up a big-bodied veteran who can finish for the playoffs.

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02-07-2011, 03:57 PM
  #67
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This has been written several times on this board. We don't know that this goal would not have been scored anyway, but let's assume it would not have. Would anyone be willing to trade away a second round draft pick every year if guaranteed the player would score a single GWG in the first round of the playoffs?

That's a bad trade off for me.
we do know he scored that GWG.

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02-07-2011, 05:21 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by JimCareyPrice View Post
This has been written several times on this board. We don't know that this goal would not have been scored anyway, but let's assume it would not have. Would anyone be willing to trade away a second round draft pick every year if guaranteed the player would score a single GWG in the first round of the playoffs?

That's a bad trade off for me.

You forget his 11pts in 21 games as a third line center, combined with his good defensive play, good performance on the PK and his big time ability to win faceoff were reasons why we did make the playoff. The guy completly stabilize our third line and after the trade our team has gone into a good streak that allowed to get us in the playoff. Add to this his own performance in the playoff (also as the checking line center) which include clutch goals in our single best playoff run since 1993 is IMO a good value for a 2nd round pick IMO.

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02-07-2011, 06:13 PM
  #69
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Q: Is Gauthier right to deal so many picks?

Context: The question is in the present tense so I will naturally assume you are questioning the concept or doctrine of trading draft picks for roster players and/or prospects

A: The practice of trading *A* (As in ONE...) draft pick for an established player is indeed "Right" as it is a wise thing to do, in that is in the balance of probabilities the best action for your hockey club. Why? Justification? Because a draft pick is not a sure thing...a player's development is not a guaranteed linear line...a roster player and/or prospect traded for this pick may not realize his full potential but at least he has developed way more than the unpicked future draft pick player. The present is always more important than the future...besides the present IS kind of the future that has become the present so addressing the present is in a way addressing the future...

Also trading more than one pick for a player is still not so bad because of...above...Even when most think we overpaid for a player...it may not be so bad because what did we trade for UFA acquisitions like Gionta and Cammalleri? Losing Sergei Kostitysn?

In the grand scheme of things a GM values his assets etc, but every move has a rational to it that makes it right/wise although it may not be the best course of action in the opinion of everybody.

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02-08-2011, 07:43 AM
  #70
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Kaberle is a top 10 defenseman in the league. I guess your Habs coloured glasses and the fact he hasn't had a team to work with in years have made you forget that or maybe not ever realize it in the first place. Maybe a 1st + Weber is steep (depending on how you judge Weber - personally I think his cap is a 4-6 defenseman. But Kaberle is worth a 1st round pick to be sure. Definately.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Lidstrom, Markov, Doughty, Keith, Seabrook, Chara, Green, Enstrom, Letang, Rafalski, Boyle, Phaneuf, Cambell and Weber are more than 10 NHL defenseman that I would rather have on my team than Kaberle.

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02-08-2011, 08:02 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Lidstrom, Markov, Doughty, Keith, Seabrook, Chara, Green, Enstrom, Letang, Rafalski, Boyle, Phaneuf, Cambell and Weber are more than 10 NHL defenseman that I would rather have on my team than Kaberle.
Kaberle is better than Campbell, who is not even top 30. I would put Kaberle about 25-35 overall in the NHL.

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02-08-2011, 10:49 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Lidstrom, Markov, Doughty, Keith, Seabrook, Chara, Green, Enstrom, Letang, Rafalski, Boyle, Phaneuf, Cambell and Weber are more than 10 NHL defenseman that I would rather have on my team than Kaberle.
All of those players are one of the following:

1) Playing for a far superior offensive team that nets tons of points.
2) Injury prone or old or retiring soon
3) Have the name Phaneuf or Cambell
4) Not even really an offensive player more of a stay at home D who can contribute offensively.

How can you seriously say with a straight face Phaneuf is better than Kaberle. Okay so Phaneuf might bring more to the table in a jack of all trades type of way. Kaberle is still better than him in terms of elite talent.

He might not be a super physical defensive D with some offensive flair but on a team like Detroit people would cry about how over powered that team would become if they had him. I don't doubt he'd put up 50+ points a season maybe even more on a quality NHL team that plays a good system is well coached and has offense.

Don't make me laugh comparing a player playing on the Toronto Maple Leafs whose doing quite well considering, to a player on Detroit.

If you factor in age, talent, stats, all that ****, he's maybe a top 15 in terms of UFA. If all D went UFA today I'm positive Kaberle would go in the top 15. He isn't going to retire soon, he isn't injury prone. There are plenty of reasons I'd value him as a top defensive player in the NHL in terms of value on the open market.

We can sit here all day and cry that he's a #15 or #25 or #10 but it doesn't change the fact that he's a very good player and just because on a **** team he isn't king **** and isn't given the #1 Phaneuf has doesn't mean he isn't that good. He is that good.

That being said Toronto's coaching is a joke anyways so where they put their D in the lineup is irrelevant to me.

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02-08-2011, 01:00 PM
  #73
Jedrik
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
All of those players are one of the following:

1) Playing for a far superior offensive team that nets tons of points.
2) Injury prone or old or retiring soon
3) Have the name Phaneuf or Cambell
4) Not even really an offensive player more of a stay at home D who can contribute offensively.
I don't really know what those two were doing in there.

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02-08-2011, 02:39 PM
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I have really liked all of Gauthier's moves so far. Although you can say that O'Byrne would be useful to have around now but I'm okay with Bournival as a return. And who would have predicted injuries to both Gorges and Markov anyway.

The Moore trade was good. The Halak trade was excellent. The Wiz trade was excellent.

Why are we complaining? We have one of the best GM's in this league from what I have seen!

The picks are overrated around here. Yes, 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders have value but I rather take a guy like Wizniewski (26 years old) for a 2nd.

Good deals, really like Gauthier!

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02-08-2011, 02:58 PM
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Monctonscout
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Originally Posted by The Right Price View Post
I have really liked all of Gauthier's moves so far. Although you can say that O'Byrne would be useful to have around now but I'm okay with Bournival as a return. And who would have predicted injuries to both Gorges and Markov anyway.

The Moore trade was good. The Halak trade was excellent. The Wiz trade was excellent.

Why are we complaining? We have one of the best GM's in this league from what I have seen!

The picks are overrated around here. Yes, 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders have value but I rather take a guy like Wizniewski (26 years old) for a 2nd.

Good deals, really like Gauthier!
The O'byrne trade was more about JM not having confidence in him than PG not wanting to keep him. Same with Streit and Gainey. The GM is the GM and the coach is the coach, you can't force him to play a guy he doesn't trust so you end up moving that player.

We have traded away picks in recent years, but also have gotten good value on players that were not getting a chance here...2nd and Patteryn for Grabovsky, Bournival for O'byrne, Palushaj for D'agostini, Ramo for Desjardins, Halak for Eller and Schultz etc It's a street that goes both ways. We also added Desharnais and Nash at no cost, both should have value at the NHL level.

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