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ATD 2011 Draft Thread III

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Old
02-08-2011, 12:04 AM
  #201
Leaf Lander
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#9 Charlie Conacher RW
Seasons 12
Era Late 20's Early 40's
RS 459 225 173 398 523
PO 49 17 18 35 49
Adjusted stats 459 393 399 792 323
Art Ross Trophy (1934, 1935)
First All-Star Team (1934, 1935, 1936)
Second All-Star Team (1932, 1933)
Stanley Cups 1
HOF 1961
Top 10 Goals
1930-31 (1)1931-32 (1)1933-34 (1)1934-35 (1)1935-36 (1)
Top 10 Points
1930-31 (3)1931-32 (4)1933-34 (1)1934-35 (1)1935-36 (4)
Role Power Forward


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One of the first true power forwards Charlie revolutionized the right wing position using his size, skill, physicality and his will to compete till he dominated the play like no one else ever did!.Conacher had a wicked hard shot that was considered the best back in hockey during his days in the NHL .He and his two other siblings are all members of the HOF.

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02-08-2011, 12:04 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I think you have to take into account they played in the exact same era at the exact same time and Dryden ended up with 3 more FAST's, 1 more SAST, and a better hart record (while Parent got the extra Conn Smythe). The people watching them game-in game-out evidently found Dryden better.

You could say that voters may have been bias towards Montreal for whatever reason, but that wouldn't explain why Parent didn't rack up any SAST's behind Dryden.
imo, the difference is probably the standards of the time. for several decades, AS selections for goalies were very highly correlated with GA, which is a team stat.

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From 1935 to 1970, there is a very simple algorithm to determine the First Team All-Star goalie. Look at all the goalies who played in at least 75% of their team's games, rank them by goals against average, and take the guy at the top of the list. That's the First Team All-Star. That solution worked in 30 out of 36 seasons, all of them except for 1957, 1958, 1960, 1964, 1968 and 1969.
in '68, 1st AS had the lowest GAA but did not play 75% of games.

glenn hall was the only goalie who actually broke the trend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Good to see Delvecchio go 3rd, yes. But I'm still not convinced Abel was better than Ullman. There's so much, perhaps more, out there that supports Ullman's non-offense skills. While they have the same peak offensive value, Ullman has significantly more longevity in that regard, and in a better era too (not in and directly following WW2).

From there we get to linemates and I know it's an ongoing debate but IMO Ullman probably had a tougher time being a 2nd line center behind Howe's line, with scrub linemates and facing lesser checkers, than he would have had being a 1st line center with Howe for a linemate, facing top checkers.
ullman played on the same line as howe in '57 and i think also '58. not sure about other seasons.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Exactly. Saying that Parent should be closer to Dryden because save percentages reconstructed well after the fact reeks too much of historical revisionism for me.

I actually agree that Parent probably wasn't much worse than Dryden, but I also don't thing the different between any of the goalies already selected is really all that huge.
i don't see why revisionism is so bad here.

goalies were usually judged by GA and wins for decades. both are team stats. not much different from disagreeing with voting for selke or norris or any other awards.

the numbers are also consistent with the games i have seen.

i can also think of players with better all star/award voting results who were not as good as a contemporary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Is it actually in nik's plans to put those two together, though? I think it's a bad idea, and nik's a smart guy, something tells me he doesn't want them together either.
forsberg and brett hull together, bobby hull on a different line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
There are certainly cases for a few of them.

However - the point about Perreault being limited by the smaller ice surface is legitimate. If I remember correctly, overpass demonstrated that he had the same PPG at home as on the road, when other stars of his ilk scored x% more at home. There's no other explanation other than the arena.

Part of me wants to say, "too bad, great players adjust", but the adjuster in me wants to take a closer look at this. Wouldn't a fair look at Perreault's offensive abilities just be a matter of multiplying the PPG in half his games by whatever x% is? With that known, we could then present a list of "what-if" points finishes and judge him accordingly.

Let me see if I can find that post...

(3 minutes later)

found it:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p...t#post21094435

So Perreault scored 4% more at home. The average high scorer scored 21% more at home. Other top scorers came close to perreault's 4%, but Perreault clearly appears to be an outlier, plus the guy at 6% was playing in another undersized rink.

So Perreault, based on his road scoring, scored at just 86% the rate that he was expected to at home. The reciprocal is 1.163. This is what his home scoring should be "multiplied" by to be adjusted. His road scoring is fine as-is and constitutes, assumedly, half of his games. Therefore, what we would need to do to his "raw" point totals is just multiply by 1.082.

Ten times top-14 in points is a pretty sweet offensive record for post-expansion players. Not many guys have done that.

Disclaimer: To buy into this, you have to completely, 100% agree with Perreault's home inefficiency being the rink's fault.
i don't like this idea.

it is possible that there is no reason perreault did not score as much as other stars at home.

any numbers for his teammates?


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02-08-2011, 12:05 AM
  #203
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OMFG..

Denneny was in the limelight most of the time because of his great stick-handling and fast skating. He worked like a hero all the time on the ice, and had the Vancouver forwards gasping for breath with his speed. - Calgary Daily Herald, Apr. 1, 1918

The article specifically says this is Cy, despite the year.. woot!!

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02-08-2011, 12:11 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
There are certainly cases for a few of them.

However - the point about Perreault being limited by the smaller ice surface is legitimate. If I remember correctly, overpass demonstrated that he had the same PPG at home as on the road, when other stars of his ilk scored x% more at home. There's no other explanation other than the arena.

Part of me wants to say, "too bad, great players adjust", but the adjuster in me wants to take a closer look at this. Wouldn't a fair look at Perreault's offensive abilities just be a matter of multiplying the PPG in half his games by whatever x% is? With that known, we could then present a list of "what-if" points finishes and judge him accordingly.

Let me see if I can find that post...

(3 minutes later)

found it:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p...t#post21094435

So Perreault scored 4% more at home. The average high scorer scored 21% more at home. Other top scorers came close to perreault's 4%, but Perreault clearly appears to be an outlier, plus the guy at 6% was playing in another undersized rink.

So Perreault, based on his road scoring, scored at just 86% the rate that he was expected to at home. The reciprocal is 1.163. This is what his home scoring should be "multiplied" by to be adjusted. His road scoring is fine as-is and constitutes, assumedly, half of his games. Therefore, what we would need to do to his "raw" point totals is just multiply by 1.082.

Here is what his best seasons then look like:

Year Pts Rk AdjP Rk
1975-76 113 3 122 2
1979-80 106 4 115 4
1976-77 95 5 103 4
1977-78 89 8 96 5
1974-75 96 9 104 7
1972-73 88 14 95 5
1971-72 74 15 80 12
1978-79 85 15 92 9
1970-71 72 16 78 8
1983-84 90 24 97 14
1984-85 83 31 90 24
1982-83 76 36 82 27

Ten times top-14 in points is a pretty sweet offensive record for post-expansion players. Not many guys have done that.

Disclaimer: To buy into this, you have to completely, 100% agree with Perreault's home inefficiency being the rink's fault.
If I could ring in on this, just in an offhand way. I don't have any stats or official quotes. My father was a season ticket holder for the first 10 seasons of the Sabres existence. He always said the smaller rink obviously hampered some of Perreaut's production. The guy brought it every game, but the space was eaten up quickly.

At the same time, this also helped Buffalo's defensemen maintain their own zone.

I definitely think Perreault is one of those guys whose stats don't tell the whole story. His offensive pressure, ability to rush the ice, and the way he was able to keep the puck glued to his stick truly helped the Sabres win games, even if he wasn't scoring. Sometimes the best defense is offense, and with Perreault this definitely rings true.

A quirky story. My friend was visiting Toronto and ran into Andy Bathgate at his golf course. Knowing I'm a big fan, he asked if Andy would give me a phone call. We talked hockey, the Sabres, the NHL awards ceremony (Bathgate was about to be a presenter at it). Bathgate told me Perreault was the scariest center he ever faced off against. Obviously, he was just being nice, especially since they only faced off during Perreault's rookie season, but it was nice to hear.

At the end of the conversation, Bathgate asked me where I lived in Buffalo. When I told him I lived in Oklahoma, he responded, "Holy ****! You let me rack up this long distance call for this long? I'd better go!" All in fun of course, gotta love hockey players.

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Old
02-08-2011, 12:16 AM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
OMFG..

Denneny was in the limelight most of the time because of his great stick-handling and fast skating. He worked like a hero all the time on the ice, and had the Vancouver forwards gasping for breath with his speed. - Calgary Daily Herald, Apr. 1, 1918

The article specifically says this is Cy, despite the year.. woot!!
Cy Denneny did not play for the Toronto St. Pats in that series (I know it was the Vancouver vs. Toronto Cup Finals because of the date). That was definitely his brother, who is probably listed as C. Denneny. I have researched the Denneny's a bit, myself, and been confused by the same thing, but you really need to be more careful, jarek.

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02-08-2011, 12:16 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
imo, the difference is probably the standards of the time. for several decades, AS selections for goalies were very highly correlated with GA, which is a team stat.
I think you're right.

Quote:
ullman played on the same line as howe in '57 and i think also '58. not sure about other seasons.
That's right; it was one or two seasons.

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i don't like this idea.

it is possible that there is no reason perreault did not score as much as other stars at home.

any numbers for his teammates?
Well, you're right, it is possible. Accepting stats like this is a bit of a leap of faith. But if this is 100% legit, then it pretty much explains why Perreault is regarded so much higher than his offensive stats make him look.

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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
OMFG..

Denneny was in the limelight most of the time because of his great stick-handling and fast skating. He worked like a hero all the time on the ice, and had the Vancouver forwards gasping for breath with his speed. - Calgary Daily Herald, Apr. 1, 1918

The article specifically says this is Cy, despite the year.. woot!!
Enough! We don't need a new post every time you find another quote. This isn't you and me chatting on MSN; this is a thread and it can get cluttered. Save it for the bio, and if you've already made one and just need to show us a new quote, wait until you have five of them... because Orr knows you'll find more.

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02-08-2011, 12:19 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Cy Denneny did not play for the Toronto St. Pats in that series (I know it was the Vancouver vs. Toronto Cup Finals because of the date). That was definitely his brother, who is probably listed as C. Denneny. I have researched the Denneny's a bit, myself, and been confused by the same thing, but you really need to be more careful, jarek.
The article itself specifically lists Cy Denneny. I can link it to you if you want:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=denneny&hl=en

So unless the newspaper somehow mistook Cy for his brother *twice*..

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02-08-2011, 12:23 AM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
The article itself specifically lists Cy Denneny. I can link it to you if you want:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=denneny&hl=en

So unless the newspaper somehow mistook Cy for his brother *twice*..
That is exactly what happened... because Cy Denneny did not play in that series.

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02-08-2011, 12:24 AM
  #209
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Is Triple H still kicking around this thread? ****, we could have had a deal.

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02-08-2011, 12:25 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
There are at least 4 other undrafted centers I would have take instead of Perreault. Not sure why he's so highy rated.
Perreault had the mis-fortune of playing with the SAbres his whole career virtually which hurt, but he was still recognized as a standout player.

There is one centre left on the board who I would possibly take over him. One.

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02-08-2011, 12:26 AM
  #211
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@ The Denneny thing.

Very well. The Trail and SIHR both confirm that he indeed did not play there, so I'll just leave it at that, I guess.

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02-08-2011, 12:28 AM
  #212
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#27 Scott Niedermayer D
Era Early 1990's - till early 2010's
Seasons:18
Stanley Cup 4
HOF not yet
22nd all time scoring d-man with 784 pts
All Star Games 1998,2001, 2004, 2008, 2009
All-Rookie Team (1st)1992-93
All-Star Team (2nd)1997-98
1ST All-Star Team 2003-04 2005-06 2006-07
James Norris Memorial Trophy 2003-04
Conn Smythe Trophy 2006-07
RS 1263 172 568 740 245 167 784
PO 202 25 73 98 20 155
Role: All round Franchise dman


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He is the only player to have ever won at every level of hockey that he has played in. He is a great skater who moves effortlessly about on the ice. He has remarkable accuracy when making a pass. He has an above avg Hockey IQ and always makes the best offensive play when called upon. He has great offensive instincts within the team first concept. Scott was a great leader on and off the ice. He is a master at eluding the forecheck while launching a counter attack.


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02-08-2011, 12:29 AM
  #213
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Scott Niedermayer is definitely in the same tier as guys like MArk Howe/Serge SAvard/Guy Lapointe I don't know why they always go much higher than him in the draft usually.

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02-08-2011, 12:29 AM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sabre View Post
Scott Niedermayer is the only player in hockey history to have won a Stanley Cup, Olympic gold medal, World Championship, World Cup, Memorial Cup and World Junior title. He's the only player in hockey history to have won four Stanley Cups and two gold medals. He also has a Norris trophy and Conn Smythe trophy. He was a winner.

Niedermayer often looked like a defenseman with unparalleled skating ability, and he made it look effortless. That carried over to the power play, where Niedermayer's command on the point was glorious: That smooth skating and puck control near the blue line; the way he'd sail against the current while the other players prepared for either a pass or a shot. His influence can be seen in the way players like Mike Green(notes) help run the power play. He didn't reinvent the wheel; he just showed how smoothly it could ride.

He's an elite, legend-for-his-era defenseman; what would his stats have looked like in a different era? Could he have reached Coffey-like numbers in a more freewheeling era on a more freewheeling team like the Oilers? The Devils of the Dead Puck era was no place to rack up blueline numbers, not in Lou's house.

Untapped potential aside, Niedermayer was also an essential part of one of the best defensive teams of the last 20 years. And he's most fondly remembered for his goal as a 21-year-old in Game 2 of the 1995 Stanley Cup Finals against the Detroit Red Wings, Niedermayer helped the team on its way to a sweep with a calling-card tally on a brilliant end-to-end rush.

Truly, an all-time great.
thanks!!

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02-08-2011, 12:29 AM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
The article itself specifically lists Cy Denneny. I can link it to you if you want:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=denneny&hl=en

So unless the newspaper somehow mistook Cy for his brother *twice*..
It was very definitely the other Denneny who scored the winning goal. The Herald's correspondent got it wrong.

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02-08-2011, 12:34 AM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Scott Niedermayer is definitely in the same tier as guys like MArk Howe/Serge SAvard/Guy Lapointe I don't know why they always go much higher than him in the draft usually.
I think he fell but not to far to be overly concerned on my part!

I would have to agree with you considering where Scott played during the dead puck era in nj wit their defence first philosophy during his prime yrs.

He also had great contemporaries in Bourque, Stevens, chelios macinnis, leetch and lidstrom which could lessen his career in comparison

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02-08-2011, 12:34 AM
  #217
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#27 Scott Niedermayer D
Era Early 1990's - till early 2010's
Seasons:18
Stanley Cup 4
HOF not yet
22nd all time scoring d-man with 784 pts
All Star Games 1998,2001, 2004, 2008, 2009
All-Rookie Team (1st)1992-93
All-Star Team (2nd)1997-98
1ST All-Star Team 2003-04 2005-06 2006-07
James Norris Memorial Trophy 2003-04
Conn Smythe Trophy 2006-07
RS 1263 172 568 740 245 167 784
PO 202 25 73 98 20 155
Role: All round Franchise dman
LeafLander, what's your source for the quote you provided in the bio? It has bad information. Scott Niedermayer is most certainly not the only player to have won at every level of hockey. I could start with Bobby Orr and go down the list.

You may want to avoid using that source in the future if it contains such major errors.

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02-08-2011, 12:38 AM
  #218
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The Pittsburgh Bankers Select C Bill Cowley

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02-08-2011, 12:39 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Perreault had the mis-fortune of playing with the SAbres his whole career virtually which hurt, but he was still recognized as a standout player.
Just because they never won a Cup doesn't mean Buffalo wasn't a good team. From 1975 to 1981, they were a very good team.

Perreault had two very good linemates, so it's not like he had to do it all himself.


It's not like he played for Andy Bathgate's New York Rangers

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02-08-2011, 12:41 AM
  #220
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the hockey news top 100 players by position

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02-08-2011, 12:42 AM
  #221
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The Pittsburgh Bankers Select C Bill Cowley
There's one guy who I'd probably take ahead of Perreault.

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02-08-2011, 12:43 AM
  #222
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Cowley could have and should have went a long time ago. I was thinking about him over Denneny.

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02-08-2011, 12:43 AM
  #223
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Peter Stastny, c

Can someone pm HHH its hard on a phone.

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02-08-2011, 12:51 AM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Peter Stastny, c

Can someone pm HHH its hard on a phone.
There's the one who's defiantely better than Perreault.... and it's not even close IMO.

In a vaccuum, I might take him ahead of Norm Ullman, but to play on a line with Bathgate, Ullman was the easy choice.

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02-08-2011, 12:53 AM
  #225
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Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
The Pittsburgh Bankers Select C Bill Cowley
Very nice selection. I would love to see a good biography on him. If we only look at statistics and awards, he 'sparkle', but I have a hard time deciding if I should rank him #75 or #100. Obviously, he most of his achievement happened during WWII, but he definitely was a very clever playmaker and overall offensive player.

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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Peter Stastny, c

Can someone pm HHH its hard on a phone.
I would hate to be in Nalyd's division. Another stellar selection.

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