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versteeg and beauchemin together

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Old
02-07-2011, 11:53 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
Two solid players and TML wants to move them? When does the team stop churning and start building? How can you build a winning franchise when you're in a constant state of flux, Versteeg has been with the club less than a year.
Although this is pure speculation that we would even move them, the mindset would be dealing from a position of strength in regards to Beauchemin and the defence. We could share the minutes he eats up on the left side of the defence between Kaberle, Gunnarsson, Aulie, and even Phaneuf.

As far as Versteeg goes, he only seems to fit on the third line going forward as he resembles Kessel offensively too much. Kessel needs a Lucic/Kulemin type player on his wing, a position we'd be looking to fill.

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02-07-2011, 11:59 AM
  #52
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This is just absurd. First, why would a non-Leafs fan go out of their way to watch a bunch of Leaf games? Right now they're an entirely unimpressive bottom 5 team in the League, and unlike say Edmonton don't have an upcoming star like Hall to pique your interest. Second and more importantly, Versteeg and Beauchemin have only been on the Leafs for 1 and 2 seasons respectively. Before that they spent their entire careers in the Western Conference, even playing for two Stanley Cup winners. Many people have "seen them play" just as much as any Leaf fans, and it's not like they've broken out in some new fashion.

Anyways, Makaveli is the only one who has it right here, if at all you trade them seperately. Basically in combining Beauchemin with Versteeg what you're doing is trying to dangle a trade-deadline type dman to upgrade on a decent player. Unless you can find one of those rare cases like Phaneuf where a player has fallen out of favour with their team, these types of packages are never attractive to the other team because they can simply pay the deadline price tag to fill the hole and keep the better player. Or to phrase it another way, according to expecations shown here the perceived 'value' of Versteeg and Beauchemin together is somewhere between Kulemin and Schenn. I doubt you'll find any Leaf fans who would make that 2 for 1, and it's no different for every other team.

So overall the answer is simple and straight forward. If you want to move him try to sell Beauchemin at the deadline if you can, it's unlikely the Leafs will be good next year and you really need to clear up some of those big D contracts, and keep Versteeg going forward because he's one of the few decent players you have so there shouldn't be a need to move him.
your right with the point of why would they watch a bunch of leaf games. but why would they comment on there play in toronto without watching them play in toronto.stupid. but playing for the leafs has everything to do with the way there viewed on HF Boards. as soon as a player gets traded to toronto there value drops 50% on the boards.

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02-07-2011, 12:01 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by 93gilmour93 View Post
because we need a center
Yeah but what you want is a top flight #1 pivot but no team is going to let their's go so you need to settle for something less which no Toronto fan is willing to do.

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02-07-2011, 12:03 PM
  #54
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Yeah but what you want is a top flight #1 pivot but no team is going to let their's go so you need to settle for something less which no Toronto fan is willing to do.
pavelski is less, what do you mean

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02-07-2011, 12:03 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by 93gilmour93 View Post
your right with the point of why would they watch a bunch of leaf games. but why would they comment on there play in toronto without watching them play in toronto.stupid.
Gee, who knows - maybe in he same way and for the same reasons that you express opinions about the value of other team's players? That's, you know, how a section like this exists.

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but playing for the leafs has everything to do with the way there viewed on HF Boards. as soon as a player gets traded to toronto there value drops 50% on the boards.
That's amazingly paranoid.

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02-07-2011, 12:06 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Qvist View Post
Gee, who knows - maybe in he same way and for the same reasons that you express opinions about the value of other team's players? That's, you know, how a section like this exists.

i watch lots of hockey and not just the leafs so i at least have something to back up what i say when i respond. if i never see a player play i don't respond
That's amazingly paranoid.
not paranoid , just a fact. doesn't change the way i view the leafs but it is what it is. for every leaf fan on the boards there are three leaf haters.

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02-07-2011, 12:08 PM
  #57
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Holy moly, that must be one of the most blatantly tendentious collection of arguments I've seen....

3GWs against 2, right. Those were the most relevant stats you could find, were they? More telling than, say, the fact that Pavelski has been pretty stable at .7-.8 ptspg for about three years, while Versteeg's registered .56-.69? Or Pavelskis 17 points in 15 playoff games last year, compared to Versteeg's 14 in 22? Or the fact that the space-pressed Sharks chose to sign Pavelski to a 4m pa contract this summer while the comparatively better off Leafs inked Versteeg for 3?

I'm no Sharks fan, BTW.
Actually, if you PAY attention, these stats were pulled from other posts that SHARKS fans highlighted.

What are their career playoff stats? Hint: almost identical. PPG this year? Yeah. GPG this year? Uh, huh. You might want to use some actual numbers because most of your are wrong. Pavelski is not at .8 per game.

Somehow, the first time ever making a million more for a similar player is a benefit?

So yeah don't come in here late and try to be the authority with your weak attempt.

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02-07-2011, 12:11 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by 93gilmour93 View Post
not paranoid , just a fact. doesn't change the way i view the leafs but it is what it is. for every leaf fan on the boards there are three leaf haters.
Until the leafs start doing well, then they'll change their names, and become fans...like they used to be. They just want to be on the winners side of the fence. Hey, it's how Ottawa got it's fan base.

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02-07-2011, 12:19 PM
  #59
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There's really no sense in arbitrarily packaging players together -- for the most part, the teams that want Beauchemin will be different from the teams that want Versteeg. That being said, Toronto should have absolutely no interest in trading either. Beauchemin is #2 in TOI on our team and #4 in cap hit. Versteeg is an integral player to giving Toronto scoring depth, and while $7.5m next year might be expensive for a 3rd line, there doesn't seem to be any better way to spend that money.

Toronto has to go out and indentify the players that can help them (big wingers and an upgrade at C), and then trade the assets that the teams need for those players.

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02-07-2011, 12:33 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
There's really no sense in arbitrarily packaging players together -- for the most part, the teams that want Beauchemin will be different from the teams that want Versteeg. That being said, Toronto should have absolutely no interest in trading either. Beauchemin is #2 in TOI on our team and #4 in cap hit. Versteeg is an integral player to giving Toronto scoring depth, and while $7.5m next year might be expensive for a 3rd line, there doesn't seem to be any better way to spend that money.Toronto has to go out and indentify the players that can help them (big wingers and an upgrade at C), and then trade the assets that the teams need for those players.
there has to be because these players have not changed much for us in the standings.

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02-07-2011, 12:41 PM
  #61
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Joni Pitkanen + Drayson Bowman + 2011 3rd for Versteeg + Beuchemin

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02-07-2011, 12:42 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by 93gilmour93 View Post
there has to be because these players have not changed much for us in the standings.
I'd love to hear your suggestions. The UFA market this year is crap. Any improvement this team makes is going have to come through trade, and in that trade chances are that some salary will go the other way, which means there may not be a need to ditch Versteeg.

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02-07-2011, 12:45 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Anton Skinner View Post
Joni Pitkanen + Drayson Bowman + 2011 3rd for Versteeg + Beuchemin
Swap Pitkanen with Whitey and it's very close. Maybe a later round pick in 2012 or 2013 as well is the difference. (6th or 7th?)

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02-07-2011, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Darkhorse1280 View Post
Swap Pitkanen with Whitey and it's very close. Maybe a later round pick as well is the difference. (6th or 7th?)

Whitney? Whitney who? Ray Whitney who went to Phoenix in free agency last summer? OR Ryan Whitney who is on a completely different team and never was on the Canes?

We have so many UFAs this summer its kinda tough to make deals for real roster players considering the only ones still under contract for next season are ones that wont be getting traded (Staal, Sutter, Skinner, Boychuk, Gleason, Ruutu, Ward) although if it came down to it, I could see Gleason (if we could pick up a different defensive specialist in the offseason) or Ruutu (although i dont see anyone replacing his scoring + physicality at all). Considering they are all UFAs, how bout something like this....

Erik Cole(UFA) + Patrick Dwyer(UFA) + Drayson Bowman + 2011 4th
for
Versteeg + Beuchemin + 2011 3rd

that may be even farther away. where would you go from here

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02-07-2011, 12:48 PM
  #65
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when versteeg got dealt this summer... the best offer chicago could get amounted to what is basically some low end 3rd line types... was a 5 player deal where you can cancel out a couple guys... so basically versteeg isnt worth a first round pick to anyone even at the start of the year when everyone has money to spend...

as for Beauchemin... he probably is overpriced now for most teams to consider as value. his good play in anaheim was surrounded by niedermayer and pronger who happen to make most guys look good. now after injuries, beachemin hasnt been able to look very solid as a top 3 guy. 3.8 is HUGE unless you play top 3

im a Bruin fan... i could see use for versteeg and beauchemin on the B's. Versteeg imho would be an upgrade over Wheeler this year and next. so Wheeler is part of the offer. Beachemin would be an upgrade over Mark Stuart as far as team needs go... so Stuart is part of the offer.

i wouldnt be able to give up much more... Toronto ends up with a guy they can view as their big body 3rd line center next year with a hope he becomes more then that... and of course they can attempt to resign Stuart if they want... or else just enjoy their 4 mill cap room on the UFA market.

Boston does use up all available cap room this year... hoping these upgrades make a difference at playoff time... and for next year Versteeg joins Marchard/Lucic in what should be three solid LW's... RW is pretty covered once Caron promotes to the big team and joins Seguin/Horton. Center is covered if Savard comes back... and if he doesnt then we got Hamil/Colborne/Sauve ready to fight for the replacement spot.

so all in all... Boston could use both guys i guess, but wouldnt give up a ton for them other then Wheeler and Stuart

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02-07-2011, 12:50 PM
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Whitney? Whitney who? Ray Whitney who went to Phoenix in free agency last summer? OR Ryan Whitney who is on a completely different team and never was on the Canes?
Ian White.

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02-07-2011, 12:55 PM
  #67
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I'd love to hear your suggestions. The UFA market this year is crap. Any improvement this team makes is going have to come through trade, and in that trade chances are that some salary will go the other way, which means there may not be a need to ditch Versteeg.
this is true and the only way we get a center to play with kessel is to offer something for it. crabb and lebda won't get it done so you have to give to get. if you could get say a 70 point center for a package of forwards/defensemen/prospects in a multi player deal we have to. bozak doesn't cut it. phaneuf, schenn , kessel, kadri , armstrong , kulemin , orr , brown , grabovski , aulie , riemer , rynas are all players like it or not that are staying on the team. maccarthur is a wild card depending if he resigns or not and we can't move komisarek because of the contract. giggy won't get a center back so the only two that leaves us with that could help a team going into the playoffs is versteeg and beauchemin. maybe more has to be added in a trade between both teams but they would have to be part of it.

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02-07-2011, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Darkhorse1280 View Post
Ian White.
LOL read it as Whitney, not WHitey haha. my bad. then yeah White + Bowman + 2011 3rd for Beuchemin + Versteeg. I'd do that right now. not sure how other canes fans would feel about it. ill check.

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02-07-2011, 01:04 PM
  #69
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I don't think that's true BB.

He's killed penalties in the games I've seen. Even if he's only the "5th or 6th option" that still means he's part of the regular rotation. And he was a regular on Chicago's PK last year, both regular season and playoffs.

Kid's a good, solid 2nd/3rd liner. I'd love to get him on the B's. But in keeping with the theme of this thread: I don't think he's worth Joe Pavelski. Not after the way Joe carried SJ in the playoffs last year.
He was 8th among forwards in PK time in Chicago. He averages 43 seconds of PK time a game in Toronto this year -- one shift per game -- on the third-worst PK in the league. He isn't a guy you want on your PK. He isn't strong on the puck, he's not great in one-on-one battles, not a great shot blocker. Check the numbers for yourself, if you want.


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02-07-2011, 01:05 PM
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this is true and the only way we get a center to play with kessel is to offer something for it. crabb and lebda won't get it done so you have to give to get. if you could get say a 70 point center for a package of forwards/defensemen/prospects in a multi player deal we have to. bozak doesn't cut it. phaneuf, schenn , kessel, kadri , armstrong , kulemin , orr , brown , grabovski , aulie , riemer , rynas are all players like it or not that are staying on the team. maccarthur is a wild card depending if he resigns or not and we can't move komisarek because of the contract. giggy won't get a center back so the only two that leaves us with that could help a team going into the playoffs is versteeg and beauchemin. maybe more has to be added in a trade between both teams but they would have to be part of it.
Yeah, but you're approaching this completely ###-backwards. Nobody can say that Versteeg/Beauchemin are the guys to get a top line player without doing further analysis into other team's needs. It's like picking 2 players out of a hat.

The first thing that needs to be done is identify the specific names that we want, then ask ourselves what we have to give up to get them. Maybe that's Beauchemin + Versteeg, maybe that's Komisarek, maybe that's Luke Schenn, maybe it's a package of MacArthur + Gunnarsson + Bozak... I don't know and neither do you.

In order to figure it out, you have to have to identify the player(s) you are pursuing. Toronto wouldn't be trading either of Versteeg + Beauchemin "just to get value out of them", they're both important players to the small amount of success we've had this year.

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02-07-2011, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
when versteeg got dealt this summer... the best offer chicago could get amounted to what is basically some low end 3rd line types... was a 5 player deal where you can cancel out a couple guys... so basically versteeg isnt worth a first round pick to anyone even at the start of the year when everyone has money to spend...

as for Beauchemin... he probably is overpriced now for most teams to consider as value. his good play in anaheim was surrounded by niedermayer and pronger who happen to make most guys look good. now after injuries, beachemin hasnt been able to look very solid as a top 3 guy. 3.8 is HUGE unless you play top 3

im a Bruin fan... i could see use for versteeg and beauchemin on the B's. Versteeg imho would be an upgrade over Wheeler this year and next. so Wheeler is part of the offer. Beachemin would be an upgrade over Mark Stuart as far as team needs go... so Stuart is part of the offer.

i wouldnt be able to give up much more... Toronto ends up with a guy they can view as their big body 3rd line center next year with a hope he becomes more then that... and of course they can attempt to resign Stuart if they want... or else just enjoy their 4 mill cap room on the UFA market.

Boston does use up all available cap room this year... hoping these upgrades make a difference at playoff time... and for next year Versteeg joins Marchard/Lucic in what should be three solid LW's... RW is pretty covered once Caron promotes to the big team and joins Seguin/Horton. Center is covered if Savard comes back... and if he doesnt then we got Hamil/Colborne/Sauve ready to fight for the replacement spot.

so all in all... Boston could use both guys i guess, but wouldnt give up a ton for them other then Wheeler and Stuart
no interest in wheeler what so ever. one of the most overrated players in the NHL right now.

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02-07-2011, 01:08 PM
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LOL read it as Whitney, not WHitey haha. my bad. then yeah White + Bowman + 2011 3rd for Beuchemin + Versteeg. I'd do that right now. not sure how other canes fans would feel about it. ill check.
I'll admit that I don't know how he's doing with the Canes but when he was a Leaf, he thrived in big-minute situations and had the odds stacked against him since day 1 of Wilson's tenure but still was relied on heavily because he was our most responsible d-man. I know most Leaf fans wouldn't even hestitate to welcome him back on our blueline with open arms. (provided he signs with an extension with us.) I know that Maurice was high on him when he was coaching the Leafs, so I can't imagine JR not re-signing him this summer.

As far as Gleason, I'd love him on our backend. But with the Kulie situation, I doubt that would be even remotely possible now.

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02-07-2011, 01:12 PM
  #73
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He does kill penalties almost 1 minute per game. Has since the start of the year.

So I would say you comment "has never killed penalties anywhere in his career" is 100% wrong and the stats prove it. In fact in Chicago last year he spent :58 SH time on ice per game.

Get your facts straight.
Really? 43-seconds per game is "almost one minute" and you're telling me to get my facts straight? He's ranked 220th in short-handed TOI/game among forwards. He gets about one shift on the PK per game. He's also failed to crack the top-4 rotation on the PK on the third-worst penalty killing team in the NHL. If you're looking to Kris Versteeg to kill a penalty, you have some serious problems with your team.

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02-07-2011, 01:20 PM
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Yeah, but you're approaching this completely ###-backwards. Nobody can say that Versteeg/Beauchemin are the guys to get a top line player without doing further analysis into other team's needs. It's like picking 2 players out of a hat.

The first thing that needs to be done is identify the specific names that we want, then ask ourselves what we have to give up to get them. Maybe that's Beauchemin + Versteeg, maybe that's Komisarek, maybe that's Luke Schenn, maybe it's a package of MacArthur + Gunnarsson + Bozak... I don't know and neither do you.

In order to figure it out, you have to have to identify the player(s) you are pursuing. Toronto wouldn't be trading either of Versteeg + Beauchemin "just to get value out of them", they're both important players to the small amount of success we've had this year.
you and i both know that certain players just won't be moved. on defense it's pretty clear. phaneuf - captain , no chance - schenn , no chance - kabs NTC....sigh - komisarek , nobody will take this contract - gunnarsson and aulie young and cheap - lebda , 4th or 5th round pick. that leaves beauchemin - he will be gone.

wingers - kessel , kulemin , armstrong , orr , brown are all staying . maccarthur probably resigns if i had to guesss . thats 6 of our 8 wingers right there. two spots left. third line winger and a first line winger. versteeg is not a 1st line winger he's a second line winger but those spots are taken be kulemin/maccarthur even though they have been the best line this year.so the best thing is to trade versteeg.

so you take versteeg and beauchemin and whatever prospect not named kadri and try to trade for a centerman. our third line winger position can be filled by UFA.

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02-07-2011, 01:35 PM
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I'll admit that I don't know how he's doing with the Canes but when he was a Leaf, he thrived in big-minute situations and had the odds stacked against him since day 1 of Wilson's tenure but still was relied on heavily because he was our most responsible d-man. I know most Leaf fans wouldn't even hestitate to welcome him back on our blueline with open arms. (provided he signs with an extension with us.) I know that Maurice was high on him when he was coaching the Leafs, so I can't imagine JR not re-signing him this summer.

As far as Gleason, I'd love him on our backend. But with the Kulie situation, I doubt that would be even remotely possible now.
Well, basically White has done well. I think many had higher expectations of him when he came in that we have gotten, but he hasnt been bad whatsoever. pretty much nothing offensively contributed, but right now defensively, well, his +/- is 2nd best on the team at +3 behind Sutter's +12. He played with Pitkanen on the top pairing when he first got here and they played very very well together. But they havent played together since Joni's injury and neither have been as good since. Also seemed to be a bit of a hint that White didnt want to play with Joni. Thats speculation, but there seemed to be a few things to substantiate that. Joni is kinda frustrating, and White isnt the first one to show some displeasure with playing with Joni. But that aside, White has been good. Not bad, although not anything offensively (no goals since coming over IIRC).

Gleason, well, its kinda tough for us with him. He has been our most defensively responsible d-man since about a year after he came over from LA, but this year has regressed alot. He has been subpar, and mediocre. So its tough to judge whether he will turn around or if something happened to him. We tend to assume its a down year for him and he will bounce back. Dont even know if he would be available.

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