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Martin Leclerc looks at Pierre Gauthier's first year as GM

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Old
02-08-2011, 09:29 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
I can't help but go out laughing when i see ''Avantage Nashville'' and ''Avantange St.Louis'' when I see the Halak and S.Kost trade.

People never look any further than the freaking points. Sergei couldnt play in a market where he was getting that much attention outside of hockey. He's a guy who loves the spotlight and he had it in montréal (For beeing a hockey player). He's doing good in Nashville and i'm happy for him, but good riddance seriously.

For the Halak trade, we need to look in the future, Eller is a raw gem. Martin will do wonder with him. Same goes with Schultz who IMO gonna become a Chris Neil type of player. Maybe not putting the points Neil was on his prime but an New-NHL enforcer like Neil is. Plus the last point, Trading Halak gave us space to sign Plekanec having Price as a #1 tender .. Talk about losing a trade ..

And for the O'B trade, It's seriously a tie. Bournival is a great prospect for us, and O'B lost all confidence here beeing not able to take a spot in the top 6. How that can't be an avantage to a team ..
Like McGuire said on the radio today, it's too early really to grade him. His reasons were because of all the injuries, but i'll take it a step further and say its also because almost all the guys that PG got in return were/are projects, where you can't tell if they'll be good in the NHL or not. One thing we do know is that Gauthier is 41-26-9 since taking over (according to the team 990). That's pretty darn good considering what we've had to overcome injury-wise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs View Post
The Halak and O'Byrne trades were terrible. He should have waited till the last minute to deal Halak, if nothing else he couldn't have done worse by waiting. I give him props on the Wiz trade, but he hasn't done anything spectacular, every GM does something right once in a while.
The only trade he didn't do great on was the Halak deal. O'byrne was expendable, and we got a good prospect in return. You can't hold on to guys forever because "maybe" someone will get injured. With Gorges and Markov in the lineup, O'byrne never had a spot, and never would. As far as Halak is concerned, i really would have liked them to wait, AT LEAST until the draft. It really didn't make any sense. All that i deduce from what happened is that PG really wanted Eller badly, and that when he found out he could get him he decided to just go for it, before maybe the offer got lifted off the table. That's all that makes sense to me anyway.

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02-08-2011, 10:34 PM
  #27
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You can't really say we lost the Eller trade because it's too soon to say. Today St. Louis got the better player, that's meaningless when the transaction is a prospect versus an NHL ready goalie coming off a hot season.

It's a dumb comparison it shouldn't even be graded yet. In 5 years it could be the type of thing where the kids the next Mats Sundin and you feel dumb having said that. It's just too early to make comments like "they won".

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02-09-2011, 06:21 AM
  #28
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I never liked the decision to make Gauthier the GM, however, I don't think he has done that bad of a job and I think that he is more aggresive than Gainey (which I like!).

Trades I liked:

- Moving up to get Tinordi at 22nd overall so that Vancouver doesn't get him was smart
- Trading for Wisniewski when their was a need for toughness and a shot from the point
- Aaron Palushaj looks like a much better overall player than D'Agostini
- Getting Alex Auld was smart, it shows in Carey Price's play when he has a veteran backup goalie

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02-09-2011, 06:29 AM
  #29
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As of now, the D'Agostini, Halak, O'Byrne and SKost trades provided 4 regulars and/or point producers NHL'ers to those teams without providing any regulars to our team (Eller is playing regularly but by lack of other players, he's still not considered a real regular NHL player....there would be possibilities of him going down, which aren't happening in the cases of the others due to age and performance...)

Now, this is an evaluation that is taken place RIGHT NOW. Eller could turn this around big time. Palushaj and Bournival could turn it around later. But the reality is that we've given NHL regulars and producers to other teams while we didn't receive 1 of them....yet.

Wiz trade looks pretty good. But Gauthier's move BY FAR was to keep Carey Price. That was incredibly risky and it paid off. But the rest of the moves looks pretty ordinairy to me.

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02-09-2011, 06:37 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
Never ever look at a trade not even 1 year in.

+ those trades involves prospects or young player, so you just can't say who won what.


Based on what you say, Philadelphia won the trade when they traded for Lindros ..
See, that's what funny though. You suggest to never ever look at a trade 1 year in...and then mention in another post that the O'Byrne-Bournival trade is a wash based on the fact that Bournival is a great prospect....well how do we really known how he will turn out to be? Isn't that ALSO too soon to tell?

Strangely, you can't say a move was bad 'cause it's too soon to tell, but we can say a move was good? I mean, I guess we can't say that Ribeiro's trade was bad....there's still Conboy left from that trade....

An 1-year evaluation is just that, a 1-year evaluation. It can be made, but it doesn't mean it's the whole story. Just like when we decide who's the winner of a draft is...the day after. Fun to do, might mean something....but often isn't. You then have the re-drafts 2, 3, 4 year later etc...So all those evaluations, you can do, but you need to put them in perspective.

Right now, aside from Wiz and maybe Halpern, as far as THIS team RIGHT NOW is concerned, every move Gauthier made that is helping the other teams as we speak, are not helping our team. That's the reality RIGHT NOW. We'll modify our approach later if needed. I'm sure we'll do it when Eller starts producing and become the player we thought he'd be.

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02-09-2011, 06:47 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
Never ever look at a trade not even 1 year in.

+ those trades involves prospects or young player, so you just can't say who won what.


Based on what you say, Philadelphia won the trade when they traded for Lindros ..
in other words, it's too early to evaluate these trades, unless you're the all-knowing Kenny Powders.

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02-09-2011, 06:55 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs View Post
The Halak and O'Byrne trades were terrible. He should have waited till the last minute to deal Halak, if nothing else he couldn't have done worse by waiting. I give him props on the Wiz trade, but he hasn't done anything spectacular, every GM does something right once in a while.
Bournival is actually a really good player. I've seen him place a couple of times and he's impressed.

I still like Eller, too and think he'll be a 2nd liner.

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02-09-2011, 08:09 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
Halak has been playing better than Eller, and Shultz, and SK has been playing better than Boyd and Ellis (who is already gone!). That's not to say one team got burned, but today, February 8th, 2010, Halak and SK are better than Eller and Boyd.
That's not really any way to look at a trade involving a rookie player though. I mean, do you think as of today that Toronto won the Kessel trade? Because in February 2011, Kessel is a much better player than Seguin is and I don't see those 2 picks of the next draft doing anything on the ice for the Bruins. They might turn out to be 2 busts for all we know.

Gauthier said it himself, Eller is a guy they got for the future, not for this year so much. It would have taken a miracle year for Eller to out-play what Halak can do this year (or a pathetic year for Halak, who is really having a sub-par year tbh, out of the 28 goalies that played 30 games or more this season he has the 21st save %, so he's in the bottom tier of the league as far as starting goalies go and you can blame injuries all you want, for seeing most of the highlights a damn lot of the goals were softies, he's been highly inconsistent).

I really dislike in general this whole 'team A won trade vs team B' thing because in general it ignores so many damn variables (cap space saved, how the player that was traded would have done for the team that had him before vs what he did somewhere else, market value at the time of the trade, etc.).

And totally off-topic, I live in Boston now but I'm from Châteauguay too, nice to see someone from over there

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02-09-2011, 08:21 AM
  #34
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A lot of mention of trades in this thread and rightfully so but are we commentiing on Gauthier's job so far overall? I see no mention of his signing Tomas Plekanec which I think has been one of his best moves. The only move I didn't really like was trading O'Byrne. Thought O'Byrne was better than Picard and was a righty too.

Can't complain about Gauthier because he's pretty much had his hands tied with injuries to key players too. It's hard to trade other assets when they need to be on the ice as opposed to being surplus players.

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02-09-2011, 08:31 AM
  #35
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If you compare PG to BG, the edge goes to PG imo. This is a way too early to tell. He still will have time to squander plenty of assets, but I much prefer his approach so far.

I actually have confidence that the moves he makes are the correct ones.

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02-09-2011, 08:40 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
As of now, the D'Agostini, Halak, O'Byrne and SKost trades provided 4 regulars and/or point producers NHL'ers to those teams without providing any regulars to our team (Eller is playing regularly but by lack of other players, he's still not considered a real regular NHL player....there would be possibilities of him going down, which aren't happening in the cases of the others due to age and performance.
He has also made moves to replace those regulars with people that fit in better with the team though. Its one thing to trade away a regular and leave a hole in your lineup, its another to make the move to fill it up with someone more desireable. Picard, Darche, Weber, Pacioretty, Halpern, Auld are players he has brought in to replace these spots, and have provided equal or sufficient benefit to the club.

At this point, I dont think we would be a better team with OB, Sergei, and Dagger in the lineup over Weber, Pacioretty, and Darche/Halpern.

Yeah, we only have Eller on the team in the return of those trades, but IMO, those players were easily expendable, and we still got assets for them.

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02-09-2011, 09:16 AM
  #37
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From that article, I notice that Shultz has 0 point in AHL !!!

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02-09-2011, 09:45 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
I can't help but go out laughing when i see ''Avantage Nashville'' and ''Avantange St.Louis'' when I see the Halak and S.Kost trade.

People never look any further than the freaking points. Sergei couldnt play in a market where he was getting that much attention outside of hockey. He's a guy who loves the spotlight and he had it in montréal (For beeing a hockey player). He's doing good in Nashville and i'm happy for him, but good riddance seriously.

For the Halak trade, we need to look in the future, Eller is a raw gem. Martin will do wonder with him. Same goes with Schultz who IMO gonna become a Chris Neil type of player. Maybe not putting the points Neil was on his prime but an New-NHL enforcer like Neil is. Plus the last point, Trading Halak gave us space to sign Plekanec having Price as a #1 tender .. Talk about losing a trade ..

And for the O'B trade, It's seriously a tie. Bournival is a great prospect for us, and O'B lost all confidence here beeing not able to take a spot in the top 6. How that can't be an avantage to a team ..
The "winners" and "losers" can change in the future, but right now, St. Louis won the Halak trade and Nashville won the Sergei trade. Things may change down the road, but right now...Eller has 8 points in 50 games (Had 4 in 7 with the Blues) and should really be playing in the AHL because he isn't ready yet. Schultz has been a non-factor. When/if Eller/Schultz get going then maybe the Habs will win the trade, but right now? They lost.

Sergei deal....he was traded for nothing. Yes he had an attitude problem but he was a supreme talent who is playing very well. We have nothing to show for what we traded him yet. Nashville won.

Obyrne trade...we have to see how Bournival develops. OByrne, a guy who the Habs thought was worse than Piccard is playing top minutes in Colorado and playing quite well.

But there were some good moves though.

Moore
Wiz
Halpern

Can't win every deal.

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02-09-2011, 10:16 AM
  #39
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Gauthier has been great so far. He's proactive and has gotten us some cheap support players like Halpern. Halak trade can't be evaluated until Eller matures. If anything, its already a win since he decided to keep Price over him when so many fans and the Montreal media wanted him to do otherwise. S.Kost trade was a lost but considering his attitude at the time (which was made public) and how much the media bashed S.Kost, the Habs weren't in a position of advantage when they traded him.

At the end of the day, whenever the Habs "need" to trade a player like S.Kost, it becomes impossible to win any trades as the media is all over it and makes it known to the world that the Habs are in a bad spot. But I know some of you will always continue to bash these trades regardless of logic and the facts presented to you. Look at the Leafs. Do you think Burke can get a good deal by trading Kessel at this point? Can he get the same return that he gave up originally? Never, even if he's dealing with the worst GM in the league, he'll never get the same return now that Kessel has expressed his unhappiness. Burke can try to twist the words as much as he wants but we all know what was said. Or look at the Heatley situation, there was nothing Ottawa could've done. If Heatley was on the Habs at the time, you'd be seeing burning Gauthier dolls on the streets of Montreal.

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02-09-2011, 10:26 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
The "winners" and "losers" can change in the future, but right now, St. Louis won the Halak trade and Nashville won the Sergei trade. Things may change down the road, but right now...Eller has 8 points in 50 games (Had 4 in 7 with the Blues) and should really be playing in the AHL because he isn't ready yet. Schultz has been a non-factor. When/if Eller/Schultz get going then maybe the Habs will win the trade, but right now?
What has St. Louis exactly won though? Halak has had his worse season to date, and Conklin has been getting more starts this month. St. Louis is tied for 14th in the conference. They had to give up their number 1 forward prospect to acquire a goalie that isnt performing better than many of the UFA goalies available for a higher contract as well.

It you take it from a pure asset management perspective, St. Louis got thrashed in this situation.

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02-09-2011, 10:34 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
What has St. Louis exactly won though? Halak has had his worse season to date, and Conklin has been getting more starts this month. St. Louis is tied for 14th in the conference. They had to give up their number 1 forward prospect to acquire a goalie that isnt performing better than many of the UFA goalies available for a higher contract as well.

It you take it from a pure asset management perspective, St. Louis got thrashed in this situation.
So Halak is the reason why the Blues are out of the playoffs? Injuries to key players has nothing to do with it? Halak is proven and we know what he can do. He had a hot start..then tailed off when the injuries started popping up. The Blues have their starting goalie for years to come.

Eller is not contributing right now and is not ready. He may be a stud eventually, but he isn't yet. I'd say at this point, Halak is more valuable than Eller is.

If you think the Habs stole that deal then you're either a Halak hater, or an Eller apologist.

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02-09-2011, 10:37 AM
  #42
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Trading Halak and going with Price was a good move, but the return for Halak has been poor, at this point.

Wiz deal was excellent, but I did not like the O'Byrne deal.

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02-09-2011, 10:52 AM
  #43
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These were patches' numbers last season

2009-10 Montreal Canadiens NHL 52 3 11 14 20

These are Eller's:

2010-11 Montreal Canadiens NHL 50 3 5 8 28

and add to that that Eller doesn't get steamrolled half as much as paccioretty did last year. Give the kid some time, he will be huge for us.

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02-09-2011, 10:57 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
So Halak is the reason why the Blues are out of the playoffs? Injuries to key players has nothing to do with it? Halak is proven and we know what he can do. He had a hot start..then tailed off when the injuries started popping up. The Blues have their starting goalie for years to come.

Eller is not contributing right now and is not ready. He may be a stud eventually, but he isn't yet. I'd say at this point, Halak is more valuable than Eller is.

If you think the Habs stole that deal then you're either a Halak hater, or an Eller apologist.
I can somewhat see where he is coming from because he is talking about asset management not who is winning or losing a trade. Halak is as proven as any other goalie that had a good year, this year would have gone a long way for solidifying it but he hasnt been the greatest this year especially after the hyped start to it.

I dont know why so many rip on eller, he has been primarily a 3rd and 4th liner with some chances in the top 6 due to injury. He doesnt have many points but he seems to play the system well and is only 21. Hes been pretty gritty for them too. Just look at the last Rags game when prust tried to hammer him, the next shift out he went right at prust and hit him hard.

Hes not getting points but I like what he brings.

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02-09-2011, 11:02 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
As of now, the D'Agostini, Halak, O'Byrne and SKost trades provided 4 regulars and/or point producers NHL'ers to those teams without providing any regulars to our team (Eller is playing regularly but by lack of other players, he's still not considered a real regular NHL player....there would be possibilities of him going down, which aren't happening in the cases of the others due to age and performance...)

Now, this is an evaluation that is taken place RIGHT NOW. Eller could turn this around big time. Palushaj and Bournival could turn it around later. But the reality is that we've given NHL regulars and producers to other teams while we didn't receive 1 of them....yet.

Wiz trade looks pretty good. But Gauthier's move BY FAR was to keep Carey Price. That was incredibly risky and it paid off. But the rest of the moves looks pretty ordinairy to me.
I find it dumb to look at a trade aimed at helping your future(in 3-5 years) and evaluate it with a "what do we have now" attitude.

It doesn't take a genius to know that Halak was going to help more than Eller in 2010-2011 or that O'byrne would more than Bournival. PG knew that when he made those deals.

What a lot of fans and journalists don't understand is that we were up against the cap so adding prospects or players on ELC's was better than guys making 4 mil to play 2nd line. I'm sure we could have had Boyes or Malone instaed of Eller but we would have had to cut somewhere else to fit it under the cap so a young player is worth more in this situation.

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02-09-2011, 11:22 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Perrah View Post
I can somewhat see where he is coming from because he is talking about asset management not who is winning or losing a trade. Halak is as proven as any other goalie that had a good year, this year would have gone a long way for solidifying it but he hasnt been the greatest this year especially after the hyped start to it.

I dont know why so many rip on eller, he has been primarily a 3rd and 4th liner with some chances in the top 6 due to injury. He doesnt have many points but he seems to play the system well and is only 21. Hes been pretty gritty for them too. Just look at the last Rags game when prust tried to hammer him, the next shift out he went right at prust and hit him hard.

Hes not getting points but I like what he brings.
If we're going to talk about asset management, then I'd say getting a top 6 winger (a need) would have been better asset management.

No one is ripping on Eller. He just isn't ready to play in the NHL right now. He needs to play in Hamilton on a top line and develop his game. I see signs that he can be special, but that's not enough at this point. He needs to play bigger minutes in the AHL. He isn't really bringing much to the team right now.

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02-09-2011, 11:25 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
These were patches' numbers last season

2009-10 Montreal Canadiens NHL 52 3 11 14 20

These are Eller's:

2010-11 Montreal Canadiens NHL 50 3 5 8 28

and add to that that Eller doesn't get steamrolled half as much as paccioretty did last year. Give the kid some time, he will be huge for us.
Which is precisely why I've said for so bloody long...let Eller play top minutes in the AHL. I think some of the impatient fans are those who bought into Habs management when they said he was ready now. He isn't. He looks good though. Just needs to bulk up a bit and work on his shot. Would like to see him sent down so he can play more.

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02-09-2011, 11:28 AM
  #48
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So Halak is the reason why the Blues are out of the playoffs? Injuries to key players has nothing to do with it? Halak is proven and we know what he can do. He had a hot start..then tailed off when the injuries started popping up. The Blues have their starting goalie for years to come.

Eller is not contributing right now and is not ready. He may be a stud eventually, but he isn't yet. I'd say at this point, Halak is more valuable than Eller is.

If you think the Habs stole that deal then you're either a Halak hater, or an Eller apologist.
Actually, Halak is not proven. Proven means doing it, and doing it more than once.
Halak has not played for more than half a season in the NHL. So no, he's not proven yet. He had one very solid PO Series, mindblowing actually, but he's only done it once.
You know the expression ''one hit wonder'' right? Well, how can you prove today, that Halak's PO performance wasn't just that?...You can't. You have to wait to see what happens.

It's the same for Price. Never been used as #1, and his PO tenure is still unsure. We have to wait for both of these keepers to gain more experience to know just how good they can be.

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02-09-2011, 11:31 AM
  #49
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Which is precisely why I've said for so bloody long...let Eller play top minutes in the AHL. I think some of the impatient fans are those who bought into Habs management when they said he was ready now. He isn't. He looks good though. Just needs to bulk up a bit and work on his shot. Would like to see him sent down so he can play more.
I'm not sure how I feel about demoting him to the AHL. I'm not sold either way on it being a good option for him. Earlier in the season he was showing some great things, for about a week and a half, I remember the Eller, Pouliot, Darche line being the only one that could hold the puck in the offensive zone and cause anything. I agree that he should bulk up, but while being an inch shorter than Patches (as per hockeydb), he's only 5 pounds lighter. So he doesn't seem to be too far off the mark, although who knows what those values would be now that we're halfway through the season.

I'd like to see them let Eller carry the puck a bit more. More than once I've seen him gain the zone by being shifty and smart, not by just blasting by everyone like Gomez.

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02-09-2011, 11:37 AM
  #50
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Actually, Halak is not proven. Proven means doing it, and doing it more than once.
Halak has not played for more than half a season in the NHL. So no, he's not proven yet. He had one very solid PO Series, mindblowing actually, but he's only done it once.
You know the expression ''one hit wonder'' right? Well, how can you prove today, that Halak's PO performance wasn't just that?...You can't. You have to wait to see what happens.

It's the same for Price. Never been used as #1, and his PO tenure is still unsure. We have to wait for both of these keepers to gain more experience to know just how good they can be.
You win.

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