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Old
02-10-2011, 06:47 AM
  #76
joechip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
agreed.
it can't be just luck that three of our struggling wingers start producing when Roy is out.
I don't say that the team is better without roy. But I'd say Roy doesn't make this team better.

It seems that vanek and miller have a way bigger impact to the team than roy has.

Another point of view:
If Roy is out, the other seem to think the game is up to them.
when roy is in the lineup the others might think thats up to roy....
The 3rd possibility is that now with Roy out during a desperate situation the other players are finding out what they are made of... and everyone will benefit if/when Roy returns.

Now Vanek[1] and, especially, Stafford know they can carry this team.

Ta,

[1] - I'd argue that Vanek carried this team last year and if not for Boychuk's intentional knee-capping we would have won that series handily. A lot of the talk about this team has ignored just how good Vanek's been over the past 4 years, as it has been over-shadowed by his injuries and the still-lingering wounds over Druiere.

Ta,

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Old
02-10-2011, 06:56 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
which is exactly what you are doing.

Fact: Vanek can't play the way he has been playing lately...with Roy. Vanek and Ruff have both admitted as much.

I don't think the team is BETTER without Roy. I think the team is the same with or without him.

BUT...Vanek IS BETTER without Roy.

The 2nd bolded is just an acknowledgement of you having your own bias.

I don't have any bias against Vanek. My point was we might not have had such an awful start if he would've shown up before Roy went down, which some people are ignoring as you just did when responding to me. Also when did I say anything inferring that Vanek couldn't be better without Roy? I think the team's better with Roy, and with how Vanek's been playing I think we'd have two pretty good scoring lines with Roy on one, and Vanek on the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
agreed.
it can't be just luck that three of our struggling wingers start producing when Roy is out.
I don't say that the team is better without roy. But I'd say Roy doesn't make this team better.

It seems that vanek and miller have a way bigger impact to the team than roy has.

Another point of view:
If Roy is out, the other seem to think the game is up to them.
when roy is in the lineup the others might think thats up to roy
....
So what your saying is when Roy's playing Pominville, Vanek, and Stafford don't try because they think its all up to Roy? That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

Don't get me wrong I love how Vanek's playing he's an absolute beast right now, and I love Vanek when he plays like this. But his great play of late doesn't change the fact that it took Roy going down for him, and this team in general to get their heads out of their *****.


Last edited by ADoubleD: 02-10-2011 at 07:05 AM.
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Old
02-10-2011, 06:59 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by joechip View Post
The 3rd possibility is that now with Roy out during a desperate situation the other players are finding out what they are made of... and everyone will benefit if/when Roy returns.Now Vanek[1] and, especially, Stafford know they can carry this team.

Ta,

[1] - I'd argue that Vanek carried this team last year and if not for Boychuk's intentional knee-capping we would have won that series handily. A lot of the talk about this team has ignored just how good Vanek's been over the past 4 years, as it has been over-shadowed by his injuries and the still-lingering wounds over Druiere.

Ta,
This. I don't understand how people don't think we'll get even better if/when Roy gets back with Vanek and Pominville forming the base of one top six line, and Roy and Stafford forming the other.

O wait I know why because once Roy gets back Pominville, Vanek, and Stafford are all going to stop trying because they think its all up to Roy to carry the team.

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02-10-2011, 07:21 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADoubleD View Post
This. I don't understand how people don't think we'll get even better if/when Roy gets back with Vanek and Pominville forming the base of one top six line, and Roy and Stafford forming the other.

O wait I know why because once Roy gets back Pominville, Vanek, and Stafford are all going to stop trying because they think its all up to Roy to carry the team.
Most people fall into stochastic (or static) arguments based on isolated incidents. It's a problem when inculcated in too much positivism, ie. variable-isolating hypothesis testing. It works well when studying electrons, atoms and matter. Unfortunately, humans don't work that way[1], b/c they build on past experience and are learning machines, for lack of a better term. Therefore, dynamic arguments, made based on taking into account the changes in the system are, I think, more valid when dealing with people.

We all do it, myself included. And think that if we can pin a person down rhetorically we can 'win' the argument because we were more adept at manipulating the language until the person gives up in frustration. That is a fundamental illusion of most internet 'discussion.'

I hope that the possibility that I outlined above comes to pass. This team will be better for it.

Ta,

[1] - or if they do there are too many degrees of freedom in a human to properly isolate specific variables to test them.

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02-10-2011, 07:29 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADoubleD View Post
I don't have any bias against Vanek. My point was we might not have had such an awful start if he would've shown up before Roy went down, which some people are ignoring as you just did when responding to me. Also when did I say anything inferring that Vanek couldn't be better without Roy? I think the team's better with Roy, and with how Vanek's been playing I think we'd have two pretty good scoring lines with Roy on one, and Vanek on the other.
So Vanek should've been playing at his current level, at the beginning of the year... even though u admit he's playing this well NOW, because Roy is out.

so blame Lindy for year after year putting them together?

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02-10-2011, 07:30 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADoubleD View Post
This. I don't understand how people don't think we'll get even better if/when Roy gets back with Vanek and Pominville forming the base of one top six line, and Roy and Stafford forming the other.

O wait I know why because once Roy gets back Pominville, Vanek, and Stafford are all going to stop trying because they think its all up to Roy to carry the team.
or maybe because Ruff will put Vanek/Staff back with Roy immediately...

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02-10-2011, 08:28 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADoubleD View Post
This. I don't understand how people don't think we'll get even better if/when Roy gets back with Vanek and Pominville forming the base of one top six line, and Roy and Stafford forming the other.

O wait I know why because once Roy gets back Pominville, Vanek, and Stafford are all going to stop trying because they think its all up to Roy to carry the team.
Honestly, is it that far of a reach that they only stepped up their games once Roy went out? Of course it isn't.

Now, of course they won't purposefully change their game if Roy comes back, but sub-consciously? Who knows.

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Old
02-10-2011, 08:50 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by ADoubleD View Post
I don't have any bias against Vanek. My point was we might not have had such an awful start if he would've shown up before Roy went down, which some people are ignoring as you just did when responding to me. Also when did I say anything inferring that Vanek couldn't be better without Roy? I think the team's better with Roy, and with how Vanek's been playing I think we'd have two pretty good scoring lines with Roy on one, and Vanek on the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralonzo View Post
Stafford



So what your saying is when Roy's playing Pominville, Vanek, and Stafford don't try because they think its all up to Roy? That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.
no. I'm trying to say that they know that's up to them now to win games. There is no Roy to hide behind anymore. The whole pressure is on them now. And it seems that they can handle the pressure being THE most important guys on our team.

There is a reason why they are winning games without roy right now. They see the loss of roy as a kind of special challenge. Everbod has expected them to miss the playoffs without roy. A lot peaple said that our team is crap without roy. It's a kind of "we're going to teach 'em a lesson" and a "now even more" feeling they seem to have right now. maybe thats the extra boost.for them. maybe thats why the're playing so well at the moment.

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02-10-2011, 08:52 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADoubleD View Post
So what your saying is when Roy's playing Pominville, Vanek, and Stafford don't try because they think its all up to Roy? That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.
Don't get me wrong I love how Vanek's playing he's an absolute beast right now, and I love Vanek when he plays like this. But his great play of late doesn't change the fact that it took Roy going down for him, and this team in general to get their heads out of their *****.

That's not at all what he saying, but some players will tend to take a backseat type of role when the team is not relying on them. One could argue that is very much the case when Roy is in the line-up, Roy consistently leads the team in minutes and is heavily relied on in all situations. It's not at all a stretch to say that Vanek, Pominville, and Stafford will step up their game when Roy is out because the team is relying on them.

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02-10-2011, 08:55 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
So Vanek should've been playing at his current level, at the beginning of the year... even though u admit he's playing this well NOW, because Roy is out.

so blame Lindy for year after year putting them together?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
or maybe because Ruff will put Vanek/Staff back with Roy immediately...
IMO Vanek should play this well all the time because of his salary, but thats another story. I think Vanek's stepped up his game because he has to with Roy out, but it shouldn't take Roy getting hurt for Vanek to play this way. I get it if you think Vanek plays better without Roy, but he should play at this level regardless of if Roy's in the lineup or not. Vanek is supposed to be one of the guys who carries this team offensively no matter whose healthy or injured.

According to the logic of Luceni's statement I responded to why should we even add elite talent? It'll just make Vanek, Pominville, and Stafford not play as well, or put forth as much effort.

Vanek, Pominville, and Stafford have been on fire since Roy went down. I credit it to them realizing they need to play better with one of the team's best forwards out. I don't understand how its asking too much for the two of the team's highest paid and best players to be producing, and putting forth this type of effort all the time.

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02-10-2011, 09:02 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
no. I'm trying to say that they know that's up to them now to win games. There is no Roy to hide behind anymore. The whole pressure is on them now. And it seems that they can handle the pressure being THE most important guys on our team.

There is a reason why they are winning games without roy right now. They see the loss of roy as a kind of special challenge. Everbod has expected them to miss the playoffs without roy. A lot peaple said that our team is crap without roy. It's a kind of "we're going to teach 'em a lesson" and a "now even more" feeling they seem to have right now. maybe thats the extra boost.for them. maybe thats why the're playing so well at the moment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalo87 View Post
That's not at all what he saying, but some players will tend to take a backseat type of role when the team is not relying on them. One could argue that is very much the case when Roy is in the line-up, Roy consistently leads the team in minutes and is heavily relied on in all situations. It's not at all a stretch to say that Vanek, Pominville, and Stafford will step up their game when Roy is out because the team is relying on them.
I get that, but it's also not a stretch to say that they along with Roy are the four guys responsible for carrying this team offensively, and that with or without Roy in the lineup they should be stepping their game up because we need them to be playing well to help us win games. I honestly can't believe you said they know there's no Roy for them to hide behind. Vanek shouldn't be hiding behind anyone! He's supposed to be taking the lead. He's supposed to play this way all the time its why he's the highest paid player on the team.

I get how it's a boost I agree with that, but the team's top players need to play this way all the time, and that is the point I'm trying to make.

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02-10-2011, 09:13 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by ADoubleD View Post
Vanek shouldn't be hiding behind anyone! He's supposed to be taking the lead. He's supposed to play this way all the time its why he's the highest paid player on the team.
Well, then go and tell that ruff, please. It's all about ruff. He decides who is supposed to lead a team. Ruff has chosen roy to be the leader of our team - he gets the most ice time+ he is allowed to play in any situation of the game. Vanek gets more money but ruff has chosen roy to be THE MAN of our team. And that has nothhing to do with how much money they pay to anyone, it's simply ruffs decession.

Ruff didn't handle vanek as leader so vanek was not able to lead. now roy is out and ruff has to play vanek more and he shows that he can handle.the pressure. And pommers and stafford step up too...

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02-10-2011, 09:41 AM
  #88
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blame anyone but vanek!!!

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02-10-2011, 10:01 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADoubleD View Post
I get that, but it's also not a stretch to say that they along with Roy are the four guys responsible for carrying this team offensively, and that with or without Roy in the lineup they should be stepping their game up because we need them to be playing well to help us win games. I honestly can't believe you said they know there's no Roy for them to hide behind. Vanek shouldn't be hiding behind anyone! He's supposed to be taking the lead. He's supposed to play this way all the time its why he's the highest paid player on the team.

I get how it's a boost I agree with that, but the team's top players need to play this way all the time, and that is the point I'm trying to make.
I completely agree with this, and Luceni would probably would too. They are the guys on offense that should be carrying this team and they should be stepping up their game with him out. His point wasn't that they should be "hiding" behind Roy when he is in the lineup, but just that that's the way things are. Not to state the obvious but it's not a tangible thing, you don't know how players are going to react in certain situations and it is plausible that with less pressure on their shoulders with Roy in the line-up, they don't step up in the same way as they do with him out of the line-up. As Luceni points out, it's pretty clear that Ruff has appointed Roy the leader of the offense. He's the #1 C, he plays the most minutes, he plays in all situations.

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02-10-2011, 10:02 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dixon Ward View Post
blame anyone but vanek!!!
ruff himself said vanek is the most talented player he ever coached. so what did he do? give his most talented player 14 min/game.

and right now vanek shows what he is capable of. and i think he is not hiding behind roy. roy is just the wrong center for him to be a p/g player.

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02-10-2011, 10:35 AM
  #91
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The only one that can hide behind Roy is Gerbe

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02-10-2011, 11:01 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murdoq View Post
ruff himself said vanek is the most talented player he ever coached. so what did he do? give his most talented player 14 min/game.

and right now vanek shows what he is capable of. and i think he is not hiding behind roy. roy is just the wrong center for him to be a p/g player.
And he's still only getting 15 mins a game. There goes that argument.

Ta,

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02-10-2011, 12:19 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
Well, then go and tell that ruff, please. It's all about ruff. He decides who is supposed to lead a team. Ruff has chosen roy to be the leader of our team - he gets the most ice time+ he is allowed to play in any situation of the game. Vanek gets more money but ruff has chosen roy to be THE MAN of our team. And that has nothhing to do with how much money they pay to anyone, it's simply ruffs decession.

Ruff didn't handle vanek as leader so vanek was not able to lead. now roy is out and ruff has to play vanek more and he shows that he can handle.the pressure. And pommers and stafford step up too...
You can have more than one guy be the man on your team. Look at Vancouver you think since Henrik wears the C that stops Daniel Sedin from playing great and being a leader? Does playing on a team with two great players like those two stop Ryan Kesler from being a leader and playing great? Give me a break.

Is Vanek ever going to be responsible for anything he does wrong in his career? Or is it always going to be Ruff's fault or Roy's? What happens if Ruff leaves and/or Vanek and Roy play on seperate lines permanently? Is it going to be the new coach's fault or whoever Vanek's playing with? Or is there just a conspiracy against Vanek engineered by the NHL?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dixon Ward View Post
blame anyone but vanek!!!
Seriously it's ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by murdoq View Post
ruff himself said vanek is the most talented player he ever coached. so what did he do? give his most talented player 14 min/game.

and right now vanek shows what he is capable of. and i think he is not hiding behind roy. roy is just the wrong center for him to be a p/g player.
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Originally Posted by joechip View Post
And he's still only getting 15 mins a game. There goes that argument.

Ta,
Boom.

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02-10-2011, 12:23 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by 71Zamboni View Post
The only one that can hide behind Roy is Gerbe


damn - you beat me

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02-10-2011, 12:26 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Buffalo87 View Post
I completely agree with this, and Luceni would probably would too. They are the guys on offense that should be carrying this team and they should be stepping up their game with him out. His point wasn't that they should be "hiding" behind Roy when he is in the lineup, but just that that's the way things are. Not to state the obvious but it's not a tangible thing, you don't know how players are going to react in certain situations and it is plausible that with less pressure on their shoulders with Roy in the line-up, they don't step up in the same way as they do with him out of the line-up. As Luceni points out, it's pretty clear that Ruff has appointed Roy the leader of the offense. He's the #1 C, he plays the most minutes, he plays in all situations.
It was said that they have no Roy to hide behind anymore inferring that when he's in the lineup they don't try as hard because they look to him to do everything.

I get what your saying but I'll restate my point differently to make it clearer. Vanek, Pominville, Stafford, and Roy as well should play at a high level all season long and then when one or more of them goes down, the others should step up their play to an even higher level.

Stafford's the only one I can say did that when Roy went down as he was already playing pretty well, and he's now stepped his game up and is playing even better. Vanek and Poms were invisible for large chunks of time before Roy got hurt.

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02-10-2011, 01:21 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by ADoubleD View Post
You can have more than one guy be the man on your team. Look at Vancouver you think since Henrik wears the C that stops Daniel Sedin from playing great and being a leader? Does playing on a team with two great players like those two stop Ryan Kesler from being a leader and playing great? Give me a break.

Is Vanek ever going to be responsible for anything he does wrong in his career? Or is it always going to be Ruff's fault or Roy's? What happens if Ruff leaves and/or Vanek and Roy play on seperate lines permanently? Is it going to be the new coach's fault or whoever Vanek's playing with? Or is there just a conspiracy against Vanek engineered by the NHL?



Seriously it's ridiculous.





Boom.
maybe he would have progressed faster if he had played 20 mins since 2005. maybe not, but saying he is the most talented player you ever coached and then give him only 15 mins is ridiculous.

again: if he really is that talented, then it is ruffs job to get vanek playing on his highest level. otherwise it would be silly to pay coaches millions of dollars.

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02-10-2011, 07:53 PM
  #97
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I believe I can offer an interesting perspective into this game. Born in upstate New York, the Sabres are my hometown team. Living here in Central Florida (for the past 20 years) my "local" team is the Lightning. I enjoy watching both teams play. But that game was horrible on both ends. Sloppy goals, sloppy officials, and sloppy playing all over the board. The officials made or didn't make some bad call (especially in the case of not waiving off that goal on Roli). But then after they didn't make the calls when they needed too on both teams, and then after the bad calls, and things escalated they were calling everything.. even crap that didn't exist.

I'm hopping the Sabres can pick some momentum up off of this game and get a lead on Carolina and Atlanta, would like to see them in the play offs.

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02-11-2011, 08:20 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by murdoq View Post
maybe he would have progressed faster if he had played 20 mins since 2005. maybe not, but saying he is the most talented player you ever coached and then give him only 15 mins is ridiculous.

again: if he really is that talented, then it is ruffs job to get vanek playing on his highest level. otherwise it would be silly to pay coaches millions of dollars.
What 20 minutes are you talking about? He played 19:14 last night against Florida which is due in part to the game going to OT, but in each of the 4 games prior to that he played around 15 minutes. In those 4 games he had 3 goals and 8 points so I don't get the argument that he isn't getting enough playing time.

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02-11-2011, 09:48 AM
  #99
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What 20 minutes are you talking about? He played 19:14 last night against Florida which is due in part to the game going to OT, but in each of the 4 games prior to that he played around 15 minutes. In those 4 games he had 3 goals and 8 points so I don't get the argument that he isn't getting enough playing time.
i mean that maybe, if he had constantly played 20 min a game over the last 5 years he could be better by now. or be that good since 2 years.

but thats just speculation and we will never know.

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02-11-2011, 09:54 AM
  #100
Jame
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Originally Posted by StGagnkos View Post
I believe I can offer an interesting perspective into this game. Born in upstate New York, the Sabres are my hometown team. Living here in Central Florida (for the past 20 years) my "local" team is the Lightning. I enjoy watching both teams play. But that game was horrible on both ends. Sloppy goals, sloppy officials, and sloppy playing all over the board. The officials made or didn't make some bad call (especially in the case of not waiving off that goal on Roli). But then after they didn't make the calls when they needed too on both teams, and then after the bad calls, and things escalated they were calling everything.. even crap that didn't exist.

I'm hopping the Sabres can pick some momentum up off of this game and get a lead on Carolina and Atlanta, would like to see them in the play offs.
the official had his arm up for hooking on Bergeron. The hook led Stafford into making contact with the goalie.

It was a great no call.

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